FAA Threatens to close control towers due to spending cuts

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I am bit surprised they are making moves now...we had the tower chief and union rep at our club meeting last night and the WOTS this way is that the higher ups are waiting until the last second to move then the cuts will not take place until 30 days due to union notification rules...

The initial plan here in KFAY is to loose the overnight shift...revert to Class E airspace...nothing in concrete though...
 
Kelvin said:
The initial plan here in KFAY is to loose the overnight shift...revert to Class E airspace...nothing in concrete though...
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Losing the overnight shift isn't going to make it Class E airspace. Controlled airspace is established, and rescinded, by regulatory action, and regulatory action takes time. Meigs tower was closed not long after Daley nuked Meigs Field but the Class D surface area remained significantly longer, resulting in the airspace curiosity illustrated in the attachment.
 

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roncachamp said:
Losing the overnight shift isn't going to make it Class E airspace.
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Why wouldn't it? When the CT is closed shouldn't the D revert to an E surface area? The charted D space wouldn't change, but I don't think that's what the OP meant to say, either.
 
roncachamp said:
Losing the overnight shift isn't going to make it Class E airspace. Controlled airspace is established, and rescinded, by regulatory action, and regulatory action takes time. Meigs tower was closed not long after Daley nuked Meigs Field but the Class D surface area remained significantly longer, resulting in the airspace curiosity illustrated in the attachment.
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I think you are talking about two slightly different things. The Class D may still exist (on paper), but it can't be in effect while the tower is closed. I believe that is what Kelvin was referring to.

For the non-24 hr towered airports I typically fly out of, there is a standard recorded blurb on the AWOS/ASOS stating the tower hrs and that when the tower is closed, class G/E airspace is in effect.

Meigs D may have still existed on paper, but if the tower was closed....who was there to enforce it?
 
dukeblue219 said:
Why wouldn't it? When the CT is closed shouldn't the D revert to an E surface area? The charted D space wouldn't change, but I don't think that's what the OP meant to say, either.
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Well, it will become Class E eventually, it just isn't automatic.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I think you are talking about two slightly different things. The Class D may still exist (on paper), but it can't be in effect while the tower is closed. I believe that is what Kelvin was referring to.
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KFAY is Class C and remains so throughout the published hours of operation, even if there are no personnel there to provide Class C services.

For the non-24 hr towered airports I typically fly out of, there is a standard recorded blurb on the AWOS/ASOS stating the tower hrs and that when the tower is closed, class G/E airspace is in effect.
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I think you'll find the tower hours statement on that recording are the same as the published hours of the Class C/D airspace.

Meigs D may have still existed on paper, but if the tower was closed....who was there to enforce it?
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Probably nobody, perhaps some overzealous FSDO type with authority issues.
 
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roncachamp said:
Losing the overnight shift isn't going to make it Class E airspace. Controlled airspace is established, and rescinded, by regulatory action, and regulatory action takes time. Meigs tower was closed not long after Daley nuked Meigs Field but the Class D surface area remained significantly longer, resulting in the airspace curiosity illustrated in the attachment.
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Not gonna get in to a dick measuring contest with you but the tower chief made the statement and stood by it...right or wrong has no bearing on anything as far as I am concerned...
 
Kelvin said:
I am bit surprised they are making moves now...we had the tower chief and union rep at our club meeting last night and the WOTS this way is that the higher ups are waiting until the last second to move then the cuts will not take place until 30 days due to union notification rules...

The initial plan here in KFAY is to loose the overnight shift...revert to Class E airspace...nothing in concrete though...
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Interesting to here this ground truth. Seems like a sound approach.
 
"KFAY is Class C and remains so throught the published hours of operation, even if there are no personnel there to provide Class C services."

How do you get in there with no one to acknowledge you?
 
hiflier said:
How do you get in there with no one to acknowledge you?
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I doubt Mr. LaHood has thought that far ahead. I'd do the same thing the aircraft that landed at Reagan did when the controller was asleep, self-announce and land.
 
dukeblue219 said:
Can they just NOTAM the tower closed between 0300Z and 1100Z or whatever and note that class E is in effect when tower is closed?
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Then can certainly NOTAM the tower closed but that wont affect the airspace. I wouldn't expect any action being taken against a pilot under the circumstances.
 
I have flown to all of these airports, except for Gary. With the exception of Lafayette, (home to Purdue's aviation program), I question whether they really need to be class D with control towers.

I suppose Bloomington might need to be class D for I.U. games, but other than that, I wonder.
 
roncachamp said:
Losing the overnight shift isn't going to make it Class E airspace. Controlled airspace is established, and rescinded, by regulatory action, and regulatory action takes time. Meigs tower was closed not long after Daley nuked Meigs Field but the Class D surface area remained significantly longer, resulting in the airspace curiosity illustrated in the attachment.
Click to expand...

so what are you suggesting Steven - that there will be Class D airspace that cannot be entered since contact cannot be established with the [non-existent] control tower such that the airport becomes unusable? Give me a freaking break.
 
comanchepilot said:
so what are you suggesting Steven - that there will be Class D airspace that cannot be entered since contact cannot be established with the [non-existent] control tower such that the airport becomes unusable? Give me a freaking break.
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Sounds like it.

KDAY Charlie could loose its night shift...

Joy
 
comanchepilot said:
so what are you suggesting Steven - that there will be Class D airspace that cannot be entered since contact cannot be established with the [non-existent] control tower such that the airport becomes unusable? Give me a freaking break.
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I'm not suggesting anything, I'm correcting the misconception that the non-presence of the controller staff changes the Class of airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
I'm not suggesting anything, I'm correcting the misconception that the non-presence of the controller staff changes the Class of airspace.
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It's like an FBO that publishes 24 hr services but there's no one to greet you in the middle of the night. :) hopefully the tower will at least leave the beacon on when they leave.
 
According to AIM 3-2-5, “At those airports where the control tower does not operate 24 hours a day, the operating hours of the tower will be listed on the appropriate charts and in the A/FD. During the hours the tower is not in operation, the Class E surface area rules or a combination of Class E rules to 700 feet above ground level and Class G rules to the surface will become applicable. Check the A/FD for specifics.”

So, who do you want to believe; Somebody from the internet, or the FAA? I know my answer...
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
According to AIM 3-2-5, “At those airports where the control tower does not operate 24 hours a day, the operating hours of the tower will be listed on the appropriate charts and in the A/FD. During the hours the tower is not in operation, the Class E surface area rules or a combination of Class E rules to 700 feet above ground level and Class G rules to the surface will become applicable. Check the A/FD for specifics.”

So, who do you want to believe; Somebody from the internet, or the FAA? I know my answer...
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I believe the underlying regulation. I looked it up a couple of days ago and I could not find a provision that would cause class D to automatically revert to E. The way I understand it is that the surface-E and the class-D are defined in separate regulations and that the surface E is constant and the class-D effectiveness goes by the published hours for the tower. The airspace regulations incorporate some FAA order as the actual tool to publish the dimensions and effective times.

In the normal case, the class D becomes effective at whatever time it is published in the FAA order. If they want to keep the tower closed for budget reason, they would probably have to publish a bunch of notams to change the effective times of the airspace.
 
roncachamp said:
I'm not suggesting anything, I'm correcting the misconception that the non-presence of the controller staff changes the Class of airspace.
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It's Class E/G airspace unless and until the tower is open. Then it's Class D. When the tower is closed, the tower frequency becomes the CTAF and E/G regulations apply.
 
Quoted from AIM:

3-2-5. Class D Airspace
a. Definition. Generally, that airspace from the surface to 2,500 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower. The configuration of each Class D airspace area is individually tailored and when instrument procedures are published, the airspace will normally be designed to contain the procedures.

The operative phrase (hah) is "operational control tower." If it's not in operation, the airspace reverts to that charted on the sectional for the surrounding area (E/G airspace).
 
greghughes said:
Quoted from AIM:

3-2-5. Class D Airspace
a. Definition. Generally, that airspace from the surface to 2,500 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower. The configuration of each Class D airspace area is individually tailored and when instrument procedures are published, the airspace will normally be designed to contain the procedures.

The operative phrase (hah) is "operational control tower." If it's not in operation, the airspace reverts to that charted on the sectional for the surrounding area (E/G airspace).
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The AIM is kinda wrong on this.

It is class-D because a regulation says it is class D (actually, the regulation just says, anything in order 7400.9w subpart D is class D airspace, the gory details are described in the order). It's not the opening or closing of the tower that defines the airspace, it is the words in the FAA order.

This is how they establish the effective times for a part-time class-D in order 7400 9W:

This Class D airspace area is effective during the specific dates and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen. The effective date and time will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.​

So for a part time class-D, they can change the effective times either by notam or revisions of the AFD.

Some class-D airspace definitions at airports with 24hr towers do not carry this notation. So if they want to change the effective times of a 24hr class D (e.g. the one for Fargo,ND), they would have to go back and change order 7400 9W.
 
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The reg says

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that airspace.
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Based on that, if someone is providing air traffic services, then that's who you have to maintain communications with. If no one is providing air traffic services, then the requirement to maintain communications would appear to be moot.

(Personally, I think the number of angels that can dance on the head of a pin is infinite. :))
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
According to AIM 3-2-5, “At those airports where the control tower does not operate 24 hours a day, the operating hours of the tower will be listed on the appropriate charts and in the A/FD. During the hours the tower is not in operation, the Class E surface area rules or a combination of Class E rules to 700 feet above ground level and Class G rules to the surface will become applicable. Check the A/FD for specifics.”
Click to expand...

That refers to part-time facilities, we're discussing a full-time facilities where the overnight shift is removed due to sequestration.

So, who do you want to believe; Somebody from the internet, or the FAA? I know my answer...
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Has somebody from the internet, or the FAA, said anything about the effects on airspace where full-time facilities are suddenly closed at night?
 
Sure looks like a bunch of angels could dance on some pin heads in here.
 
roncachamp said:
That refers to part-time facilities, we're discussing a full-time facilities where the overnight shift is removed due to sequestration.
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A full-time facility with the overnight shift removed would be.....


a part-time facility.


nah, we should NOT apply logic and reason to FAA thinking...
 
weilke said:
I believe the underlying regulation. I looked it up a couple of days ago and I could not find a provision that would cause class D to automatically revert to E. The way I understand it is that the surface-E and the class-D are defined in separate regulations and that the surface E is constant and the class-D effectiveness goes by the published hours for the tower. The airspace regulations incorporate some FAA order as the actual tool to publish the dimensions and effective times.
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That order is JO 7400.9W Airspace Designations and Reporting Points.

There is no full-time Class E surface area where part-time Class D airspace becomes Class E when the tower closes, the two airspace areas are established by separate actions. Look at Central Wisconsin Airport as an example, here are the Airspace Legal Descriptions:

AGL WI D Mosinee, WI
Central Wisconsin Airport, WI
(lat. 44°46'39"N., long. 89°40'00"W.)​

That airspace extending upward from the surface to and including 3,800 feet MSL within a 4.5-mile radius of the Central Wisconsin Airport. This Class D airspace area is effective during the specific dates and times established in advance by Notice to Airmen. The effective date and time will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.​

AMENDMENTS 6/13/02 67 FR 30777 (Revised)
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AGL WI E2 Mosinee, WI
Central Wisconsin Airport, WI
(lat. 44°46'39"N., long. 89°40'00"W.)​

That airspace extending upward from the surface within a 4.5-mile radius of the Central Wisconsin Airport. This Class E airspace area is effective during the specific dates and times established in advance by Notice to Airmen. The effective date and time will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.​

AMENDMENTS 6/13/02 67 FR 30777 (Revised)
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A full-time Class E surface area would not include the phrase in blue.

In the normal case, the class D becomes effective at whatever time it is published in the FAA order. If they want to keep the tower closed for budget reason, they would probably have to publish a bunch of notams to change the effective times of the airspace.
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It's a bit more involved than just issuing a NOTAM, unless the king issues another executive order. Changes to controlled airspace are subject to rulemaking procedures, a rather lengthy process. See Order 7400.2J Procedures for Handling Airspace Matters.
 
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greghughes said:
It's Class E/G airspace unless and until the tower is open. Then it's Class D. When the tower is closed, the tower frequency becomes the CTAF and E/G regulations apply.
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It's Class D during the specific times the it's been established and published as Class D airspace. Doesn't matter if the tower staff doesn't show up.
 
greghughes said:
Quoted from AIM:

3-2-5. Class D Airspace
a. Definition. Generally, that airspace from the surface to 2,500 feet above the airport elevation (charted in MSL) surrounding those airports that have an operational control tower. The configuration of each Class D airspace area is individually tailored and when instrument procedures are published, the airspace will normally be designed to contain the procedures.

The operative phrase (hah) is "operational control tower." If it's not in operation, the airspace reverts to that charted on the sectional for the surrounding area (E/G airspace).
Click to expand...

That's a general description of Class D airspace, but the airspace is established with an Airspace Legal Description that may or may not include the phrase, "This Class D airspace is effective during specific dates and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen. The effective date and time will thereafter be continuously published in the airport/Facility Directory." If that phrase is not included the airspace is continuous. If the phrase is included the A/FD entry for the airport will include:

AIRSPACE: Class D svc xxxx-yyyy other times Class Z

The times xxxx and yyyy will be the same as the control tower hours of operation, and "Class Z" will be "Class E" or "Class G". But if the tower staff does not arrive by xxxx for some reason; snowstorm, illness, overslept, sequestration, etc., you have Class D airspace without an operational control tower. If the tower hours of operation are extended beyond yyyy for some reason, you have an operational control tower in Class E or Class G airspace.
 
You don't need to talk to the tower to enter class D airspace. Usually, it is the local approach controller with whom you make 2-way radio contact. In their absence, nearest center frequency would work.

Now for LANDING, that's where your argument might be relevant.
 
Morne said:
You don't need to talk to the tower to enter class D airspace. Usually, it is the local approach controller with whom you make 2-way radio contact. In their absence, nearest center frequency would work.

Now for LANDING, that's where your argument might be relevant.
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A takeoff, landing, or taxi clearance is required only at airports with operating control towers.
 
roncachamp said:
That order is JO 7400.9W Airspace Designations and Reporting Points.

There is no full-time Class E surface area where part-time Class D airspace becomes Class E when the tower closes, the two airspace areas are established by separate actions. Look at Central Wisconsin Airport as an example, here are the Airspace Legal Descriptions:




A full-time Class E surface area would not include the phrase in blue.



It's a bit more involved than just issuing a NOTAM, unless the king issues another executive order. Changes to controlled airspace are subject to rulemaking procedures, a rather lengthy process. See Order 7400.2J Procedures for Handling Airspace Matters.
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Steven you're referring to designating airspace or significant changes to the airspace. Not going from full -time to part-time. The 7400.2 even states that the ad hoc committee isn't necessary to change a facility to part-time. Plus we're talking about a sequester here. Do you really think they're going to do some impact study to see if a redesignation is necessary? All it would take is the Administer to issue the order. ATC procedures Group notifies Regional Managers who notify Facility Managers. A NOTAM is issued stating the new hours. Those new hours will have an effective date of immediately UFN. Who cares that it isn't in an AFD yet or a sectional doesn't have a * yet. It's NOTAM'd and the tower updates the ATIS. Done.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Steven you're referring to designating airspace or significant changes to the airspace. Not going from full -time to part-time. The 7400.2 even states that the ad hoc committee isn't necessary to change a facility to part-time. Plus we're talking about a sequester here. Do you really think they're going to do some impact study to see if a redesignation is necessary? All it would take is the Administer to issue the order. ATC procedures Group notifies Regional Managers who notify Facility Managers. A NOTAM is issued stating the new hours. Those new hours will have an effective date of immediately UFN. Who cares that it isn't in an AFD yet or a sectional doesn't have a * yet. It's NOTAM'd and the tower updates the ATIS. Done.
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I'm just pointing out the existing requirements. Hell, we don't even adhere to the US Constitution.
 
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