FAA sent me the wrong cert

Owenrg

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Tulsa OK
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Owenrg
i'm graduating from a part 141 school on monday and they do things a little backwards here...

In this program they suggest you get your CFII as your initial instructor cert and then do the CFI as the add on. I filled out the 8710 (IACRA still doesn't accept applications for the CFII as the initial) correctly and my temp. certificate says instrument airplane, but they sent me the CFI card. I simple called airman records and they're sending me the correct card, just thought it was kinda weird to receive the wrong cert.

Has anyone else out there ever had this happen to them? The FAA examiner i'm doing my CFI ride with has one thousands of check rides and she's never seen this before. (guess i'm special! woo hoo! )

Just thought it was funny and figured i'd share it with yall.
 
In this program they suggest you get your CFII as your initial instructor cert and then do the CFI as the add on. I filled out the 8710 (IACRA still doesn't accept applications for the CFII as the initial)

Hmm, you must have been doing something wrong. I did my CFII as the initial and have never once filled out a paper 8710. Most defiantly worked for me. Just make sure you've got the temp, and if it is close to expiring, go have the DPE get you a new one.
 
Joel: you did your CFII initial on IACRA? I called the help hotline and they said i couldn't.... interesting. (this isn't the first time I've heard of something like this)

I do have my temp so i'm holding onto that.
 
I had them drop my Instrument Airplane when I did Instrument Helicopter, but they fixed it quickly.

IACRA seems to help alot, sure has cut down the time it takes to get a little piece of plastic.

Joe
 
The time saving is nice... and it's hard to get an IACRA application(is that the right word there?) wrong.

The problem is that i have my permanent address as back home (i'm at school) and my parents have the mail forwarding to them at their other place. So i'm going to school in Tulsa OK (just north east of OKC) and my card is going from OKC, to Philly, then to Wyoming, then my parents mail it back here.

I figured it's easier to do it that way than to change my mailing address 3 times a year with the FAA. (i move a lot at school)
 
What is the benefit of doing the CFI-I first and then adding on the CFI?

Just curious
 
The way it was explained to me is that it was easier to do your CFI after you already had you CFII.

If you look at page 1-xi of the flight instructor pts under "IA" and area operations II and III, only C and D were required but with change 5 of the PTS Area of operation II is now "starred" and III is "all". (I happen to have the PTS right in front of me)

The person that explained it to me said that is use to be easier but the FAA saw that some areas were falling through the cracks on the CFI add on check ride so they changed the PTS.

I don't think there is any benefit to doing the CFII first. I didn't know any better so i took the suggestion.

any other input from people that have been around longer?
 
The main benefit of CFII as the initial instructor rating would be for an instructor who chooses to work with instrument students but not primary students.

Jon
 
Joel: you did your CFII initial on IACRA? I called the help hotline and they said i couldn't.... interesting. (this isn't the first time I've heard of something like this)

I do have my temp so i'm holding onto that.

Yup, did the whole thing on IACRA. I've taken 8 checkrides and I've used IACRA on all of them. Maybe I just got lucky and happened to pick the right combo of boxes. Who knows?

What is the benefit of doing the CFI-I first and then adding on the CFI?

Just curious

I did it because I was most familiar with the instrument rating material. I felt better about flying it and felt better about having to teach it for my initial ride with potentially the FSDO. I don't really like doing commercial maneuvers (still don't), so I didn't want to force myself into making an already difficult checkride harder than it needed to be. Aircraft availability also was part of it (5 G1000 172's versus 1 C172RG).

The main benefit of CFII as the initial instructor rating would be for an instructor who chooses to work with instrument students but not primary students.

Not any more. In order to instruct in the aircraft, one must posses the CFI rating applicable to the class/category. So, if you would be doing instrument instruction in a multi, you would need to have at least the CFI-AME and the CFI-IA.

But, with just a CFI-IA you can teach simulator and ground stuff, so it's not entirely worthless.
 
Not any more. In order to instruct in the aircraft, one must posses the CFI rating applicable to the class/category. So, if you would be doing instrument instruction in a multi, you would need to have at least the CFI-AME and the CFI-IA.

But, with just a CFI-IA you can teach simulator and ground stuff, so it's not entirely worthless.

I can do that (simulator and ground stuff) with just an AGI...

A CFII airplane CAN provide instrument instruction in the airplane.
Where is the chapter and verse that proves otherwise?
 
I can do that (simulator and ground stuff) with just an AGI...

A CFII airplane CAN provide instrument instruction in the airplane.
Where is the chapter and verse that proves otherwise?

This changed with the recent update of the FARs (10/20/2009). Check the new wording of 61.195(c) that says. . .
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.
(Emphasis mine)

There is also a LOI explaining this. Apparently the question was asked so the old FAQs that are sometimes referenced could be updated with LOIs. (from AVSIG)

Taylor Grayson
6900 Amersham Drive
Memphis, TN 38119

Dear Mr. Grayson:

This letter responds to the request for a legal interpretation that you
mailed to this office on August 25,2009. Your letter seeks clarification
regarding the flight instructor limitations and qualifications set forth in 14
CFR 61.195. Specifically, you have asked whether a flight instructor who
holds only an instrument-airplane rating on his or her flight instructor
certificate may conduct instrument training in a single or multiengine
airplane if he holds those ratings only on his commercial pilot's certificate.

In order to be eligible for a flight instructor certificate under 14 CFR
61.183, a person must hold either a commercial pilot certificate or an airline
transport pilot (ATP) certificate with the aircraft category and class rating
that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought. In addition, if
the person is applying for a flight instructor certificate with an airplane
category and class rating, a powered-lift rating, or an instrument rating,
the pilot certificate must also contain an instrument rating or privileges
that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought. For example, in
order to obtain a flight instructor certificate with an airplane multi engine
class rating, a person must first hold a commercial pilot certificate with an
airplane multi engine class rating and instrument-airplane rating or an ATP
certificate with an airplane multi engine class rating.

Section 61.195(b), which addresses flight instructor limitations and
qualifications with regard to aircraft ratings, directs that a flight
instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which he does
not hold "a pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the
applicable category and class rating[.]" As such, a flight instructor is
precluded from providing flight training in a specific class of airplane if
the instructor does not have that class rating on his or her flight instructor
certificate.

Revised 61.195( c), which became effective on October 21, 2009, addresses
flight instructor limitations and qualifications with regard to instrument
ratings. It states that "[a] flight instructor who provides instrument
training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited
to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and air
transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her
pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the
category and class of aircraft used for the training provided."

As you noted in your letter, the rule formerly stated that "a flight
instructor providing instrument training for issuance of an instrument rating
or a type rating not limited to VFR must hold an instrument rating on his or
her flight instructor certificate and pilot certificate that is appropriate to
the category and class of aircraft in which the instrument training is being
provided." You suggested that the change in the order of the certificates in
this provision now restricts a flight instructor from providing instrument
training in a particular class of airplane if the instructor does not have
that class rating on his flight instructor certificate.

As we recently noted in the preamble of the Pilot, Flight Instructor, and
Pilot School Certification Final Rule (74 FR 42500, Aug. 21, 2009) the
revision to 61.195(c) was intended to clarify that, in order to provide the
instrument training required for a commercial pilot certificate or ATP
certificate, a flight instructor must have an instrument rating on his flight
instructor certificate that is applicable to the aircraft category for which
the training is provided. We distinguished this requirement from the
qualifications required for those instructors who provide flight training on
the "basic instrument maneuvers" in 61.107 and the "control and maneuvering
of an airplane solely by reference to the instruments" in 61.109 necessary
for private pilot certification. Flight instructors providing this type of
flight training are not required to have an instrument rating on their flight
instructor certificates.

In addition to clarifying that a flight instructor providing instrument flight
training for a commercial or ATP certificate must have an instrument-airplane
rating on his or her flight instructor certificate, we explained that, under
61.195, a flight instructor may not conduct instrument flight training in a
multiengine airplane unless that flight instructor holds the appropriate
airplane category multi engine class rating on both his or her pilot
certificate and flight instructor certificate. This requirement also applies
to instrument flight training for the issuance of an instrument rating and
type rating not limited to VFR. We note that FAA Order 8900.1, 5-503, which
you referenced in your letter, is inconsistent with the current regulation.


This response was prepared by Anne Moore, an Attorney in the Regulations
Division of the Office of the Chief Counsel and coordinated with the
Certification and General Aviation Operations Branch of Flight Standards
Service. We hope this response has been helpful to you. If you have additional
questions regarding this matter, please contact us at your convenience at
(202) 267-3073.
"And that's the way it is" - Walter Kronkite
"Stay classy, San Diego" - Ron Burgandy


Edit: Mark beat me to it but there's the wording for future reference.
 
Just FYI, I think a lot of the whole IACRA vs. 8710 deal has a lot to do with motivation and competency at the FSDOs. I've done both. My CFI checkride we actually ended up doing the 8710, and I got my card REALLY, REALLY fast - like 28 days or so when others were being told that it would take 90 days or something like that. I think I just had a motivated examiner who was really doing her job.

Ryan
 
There's no such thing as a "CFII" certificate. There is a Flight Instructor certificate that comes with several possible ratings (per 61.5(c)), including:
Airplane Single Engine
Airplane Multiengine
Rotorcraft Helicopter
Rotorcraft Gyroplane
Glider
Powered Lift
Instrument-Airplane
Instrument-Helicopter
Instrument-Powered Lift

I'll bet if you look closely, what you have is a Flight Instructor certificate (see the front side) with Instrument-Airplane rating (see the back side) -- IOW, exactly what you applied for and earned.
 
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