FAA registration - how to question with a bit of an unusual situation

[docmirror]

I know this has to have come up before, but I'm going to see if the brain trust here has ever gone through it, and suggestions.

I'm looking to buy an experimental plane that has never been registered in the FAA. It's never been assigned an N number, and the only thing up to this point is the inspections in the log book from the builder and the examiner with qualifications to keep going.

At this point, the plane is basically complete, and ready for flight test. Here comes the sticky part. The builder, who's name is in the log books has passed away, and the plane changed hands through probate. It is now in the hands of someone who has no interest in registering it with the FAA, and just wants to sell the plane as-is, where-is with a disclaimer for hold harmless to the next owner(me).

My ultimate goal of course it to complete it, have it signed off ready for flight again, and get it registered and N numbered. I know the bill of sale process from the FAA with the form, but unless it has an N number, they will not process the bill of sale, so at this point, I'm concerned about the FAA assigning an N number to a plane which I did not build and did not buy from the builder.

SPIKE to the rescue! Or anyone else who's gone through this. My guess is that I will need to show transfer of ownership from the builder and log book endorser to the current owner, and then to me. If there is other issues, I would like to focus first on the how, and not the why, which we can cover at a later date.

 

[murphey]

Fascinating! At this point, is the FAA involved? If no N number, isn't is physical property being transfered from one to another? I'm clueless about any of it - would a call to the FSDO get the answer?

 

[poadeleted20]

I'll bet EAA has answered this one many times before. Give 'em a call.

 

[flyingron]

What examiner? Homebuilts these days never sees any sort of examiner until completed and ready to have the airworthiness certificate issued. The FAA hasn't done periodic inspections in decades and in fact, often does do the final any more, they may send you to go get a DAR. The EAA recommends getting someone savvy to look at the progress in lieu of the no longer required inspections, and has a program of "tech counselors" to do these.

If you finish the aircraft, YOU can take it through certification. The information on how to do this is here at the EAA.ORG: http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/registering/articles/articles.html

 

[docmirror]

What examiner? Homebuilts these days never sees any sort of examiner until completed and ready to have the airworthiness certificate issued. The FAA hasn't done periodic inspections in decades and in fact, often does do the final any more, they may send you to go get a DAR. The EAA recommends getting someone savvy to look at the progress in lieu of the no longer required inspections, and has a program of "tech counselors" to do these.

If you finish the aircraft, YOU can take it through certification. The information on how to do this is here at the EAA.ORG: http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/registering/articles/articles.html

The man's name was D.E. Lowry with APC-EMDO, HNL behind his name in one signature, and ANM behind in another location. The entries are more than 15 years old. I don't know those designations, they may be a DAR.

It's well over 51% complete. In fact, it's about 95% done at this point. Don't think I could ever qual for a repairmans cert based on this.

 

[docmirror]

I was mistaken in the original. It has been assigned an N number, but the N number hasn't been active for > 15 years, and is off the registry. So, it looks like what I need is an FAA bill of sale, including the N number(even if not active) and all other info from the builder of record to me, through the current owner.

I think I've got this figured out now that there is an N number assigned.

 

[N801BH]

I'll bet EAA has answered this one many times before. Give 'em a call.

+1.....

The other hiccup would be how the plane passed through probate.

Did it get retitled to the trustee?

Did it just pass to the trustee as an asset without paperwork?

Did it just get thrown into the pile of assets during distribution of the estate and segregated out later?

I agree with Ron though... I am sure this has happened before as alot of kitplanes are not flying by the time the builder dies..

ps.. don't even try to apply for the repairmens cert for that airframe.

 

[flyingron]

If the thing was never registered with the FAA it's doubtful there's any sort of title chain.
Reserving an n-number doesn't do such. I'd check to see if the n-number is still assigned. Reserved n-numbers are released after a year unless actually assigned to an aircraft or the reservation is renewed. At this point you have nothing but a pile of uncertified aircraft parts. It doesn't become an aircraft until you take it through the certification process (see the links I gave).

 

[craigvince]

The man's name was D.E. Lowry with APC-EMDO, HNL behind his name in one signature, and ANM behind in another location. The entries are more than 15 years old. I don't know those designations, they may be a DAR.

Probably an EAA Tech Counselor. ??

It's well over 51% complete. In fact, it's about 95% done at this point. Don't think I could ever qual for a repairmans cert based on this.

The 51% rule has to do with whether it was built by an amateur, not by you. As long as 51% of it was built by an amateur, it can be an EAB (Experimental Amateur Built). It doesn't matter WHO the amateur was.

The more important issue here is, who will the Repairman's Certificate be issued to. If you can convince the DAR doing the final inspection that you built a substantial part of the airplane, you can apply for the RC. This allows you and you only to sign off the annual condition inspections. This is the only thing it is important for. As an experimental, anyone can do any routine maintenance, minor modifications, panel upgrades, etc, etc, etc with a simple logbook entry.

 

[N801BH]

Probably an EAA Tech Counselor. ??



The 51% rule has to do with whether it was built by an amateur, not by you. As long as 51% of it was built by an amateur, it can be an EAB (Experimental Amateur Built). It doesn't matter WHO the amateur was.

The more important issue here is, who will the Repairman's Certificate be issued to. If you can convince the DAR doing the final inspection that you built a substantial part of the airplane, you can apply for the RC. This allows you and you only to sign off the annual condition inspections. This is the only thing it is important for. As an experimental, anyone can do any routine maintenance, minor modifications, panel upgrades, etc, etc, etc with a simple logbook entry.

...

This guy just got on the internet and stated he is buying an experimental that is ready to fly... There is NO way he is gonna pull off getting the repairmens certificate......

 

[N801BH]

If the thing was never registered with the FAA it's doubtful there's any sort of title chain.
Reserving an n-number doesn't do such. I'd check to see if the n-number is still assigned. Reserved n-numbers are released after a year unless actually assigned to an aircraft or the reservation is renewed. At this point you have nothing but a pile of uncertified aircraft parts. It doesn't become an aircraft until you take it through the certification process (see the links I gave).

I respectfully disagree...

When someone buys a "kit". The title is actually the part of that transaction. The FAA will NOT even deal with you during the registration process unless you have that document.....

The trustee better have it or this could get real interesting..

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

...

This guy just got on the internet and stated he is buying an experimental that is ready to fly... There is NO way he is gonna pull off getting the repairmens certificate......

He said it is 95% done. So he will be doing about 50% of the actual work.

 

[N801BH]

He said it is 95% done. So he will be doing about 50% of the actual work.

Agreed... BTDT...

 

[tinerj]

Yes, a plane can be inspected along the way. It is not necessary and carries no weight at the final inspection unless the same DAR does the inspection.

Really, a kit comes with a title? Don't think so. Mine didn't. Bill of sale maybe.

A tail number can be reserved but only becomes active at the time the plane gets an airworthiness certificate.

To be an E-HB it must be 51 percent built by an amateur or by a chain of amateurs with a clears no gap paper trail.

Having a repairman,s certificate is nice but the owner -- even if he didn't build the plane -- can do the repairs. The condition inspection must be done by an A/P, but any thing he finds can be corrected by the owner.

For heavens sake contact the EAA.

 

[N801BH]

....
Really, a kit comes with a title? Don't think so. Mine didn't. Bill of sale maybe.

A tail number can be reserved but only becomes active at the time the plane gets an airworthiness certificate.

.

The bill of sale basically turns into a title at FAA registration time.... I know it is hard to explain. The easiest way is to try to get your experimental blessed by the FAA without one....

 

[flyingron]

I respectfully disagree...

When someone buys a "kit". The title is actually the part of that transaction. The FAA will NOT even deal with you during the registration process unless you have that document.....

The trustee better have it or this could get real interesting..

Again I disagree. Kits are not TITLED. Airplane parts don't have titles even if you buy them all from one seller. You need to make sure that the ESTATE has the rights to legally convey the parts to you but there's NOT going to be a title here.

 

[N801BH]

Again I disagree. Kits are not TITLED. Airplane parts don't have titles even if you buy them all from one seller. You need to make sure that the ESTATE has the rights to legally convey the parts to you but there's NOT going to be a title here.

Ok.....