You know. There is no self-serve avgas anywhere. 
This, when they have self-serve at DuPage
This, when they have self-serve at DuPage
FAA outlaws self-serve fuel? Chicago Executive says so.
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JohnR
Final Approach
Is Chicago in an alternate universe?
K
KennyFlys
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Gee, that "law" from the FAA sure didn't prevent the City of Gainesville, GA from awarding a self-service contract to the flight school there.
Could this be a case of the ignorant attempting to lead the supposed blind?
Could this be a case of the ignorant attempting to lead the supposed blind?
There's a clue in the new name for PalWaukee. "Chicago Executives" don't pump their own fuel into the bizjets.
t0r0nad0
Pattern Altitude
Honestly, I'm not surprised that this would happen in Chicago. I wonder, did they have self-serve pumps at CGX?
ScottM
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iBazinga!
PWK is really trying to shut down the whole non-jet community there. I had to stop by there weekend before last to pickup crew. I asked for taxing to Palwaukee Flyers and the tower was really confused as to why I wanted to go there. IT was because I could park for free and pick up crew and get out of their with out the $40 ion charges from Signature for a 5 minute stop.
Nope. It was $ignature and a fuel truck.
BTW, the TV investigative reporters tried to start a major scandal because the EPA found fuel residue in the area where the above ground tanks were. They had a leak once.
The scandal is the city and the park district have no plans to clean the soil under the park. Theye were going to lay a few feet of fill over the pollution.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
Jsut so people know, and why would you if you did not live here, Chicago Executive is not in Chicago. Chicago has two airports, O'Hare and Midway. Chicago Exec is in the town of Wheeling (maybe some Palatine too) a suburb northwest of Chicago.
The airport changed it's name this year to try and lure more biz jets from O'hare and Midway to it.
Prospect Heights and Wheeling, just like it says on the ATIS. Tiny Prospect Heights annexed PWK. Wheeling provides fire services and prolly more. It may be that the airport expanded into Wheeling when they lengthened the runway and moved the road to the north.
JohnR
Final Approach
Did they do any environmental cleanup at Meigs?
Nope. The Park District never has any money, which is one of the ironies about supposedly turning Meigs into a park.
They were going to remove a few feet of dirt, lay in a barrier, and put in new fill. You know. The same as any private company could do.
Everskyward
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Chicago Executive is a lot closer to Chicago than the recently renamed Chicago/Rockford International. I guess they can call it whatever they want but how did they get away with indexing the charts under "Chicago" rather than "Rockford" which is the way it used to be.
poadeleted20
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There are Federal standards for aircraft fueling operations. Perhaps the proposal did not meet those standards.
James_Dean
Pattern Altitude
Scott,
I was at PWK for the first time a few weeks ago and I was pleasantly surprised at service from Atlantic Aero. I had the wife, my three kids, all the kid gear, and luggage in the Saratoga. The line guys were great with the kids, they were a tremendous help with the luggage, and were courteous. They tied down the plane for me right next to one of Kraft's G-550's and had it gassed exactly as I had ordered when I had arrived. I bought $350 in fuel and was not charged any fees whatsoever.
I can heartily recommend PWK and Atlantic Aero and when I have to return to Chicago they will get my business again.
James Dean
JohnR
Final Approach
Gosh, I know someone who went to that park and now they have cancer and lead poisoning from everyone tossing fuel samples onto the ground. Know any lawyers?Nope. The Park District never has any money, which is one of the ironies about supposedly turning Meigs into a park.
They were going to remove a few feet of dirt, lay in a barrier, and put in new fill. You know. The same as any private company could do.
(Not really, just making that up)
As they said on the TV story, "THERE WILL BE CHILDREN PLAYING IN THAT PARK!!!"
One of the things that they had as a conception for Northerly Island Park, on an exhibit inside the passenger terminal at Meigs long before the midnight raid, was an overnight campground for kids, or as I put it, "A one stop (assault) center! Convenient to downtown!"
Aztec Driver
Line Up and Wait
This is only heresay, so take it for what its worth. From two different sources, I was told that, according to the standards for aircraft refueling, someone had to be on duty at all times. It could be self-fueled, but someone had to be working at the FBO in order to allow it. Obviously, there are a lot of self-fueling operations out there. It would sure be nice to know the real answer to that.
There are a lot of self-serve pumps at airports that are unattended and available 24 hours a day. I think even Rockford has one.
Barry, is the one at DuPage open 24 hours?
Dr. Bill
Pre-takeoff checklist
Ya know, I can, off the top of my head, count no less than 10 self-serve pumps (at both towered and untowered fields) that have available fuel 24 hrs a day for credit card purchases. And, they have been that way for the 3 years I've known them.
This is insanity.
Surely the FAA regs aren't THAT far behind the times...
Oh, wait, it's the FAA. Maybe they are... Yep. They definitely are.
This is insanity.
Surely the FAA regs aren't THAT far behind the times...
Oh, wait, it's the FAA. Maybe they are... Yep. They definitely are.
K
KennyFlys
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Self-serve at KGVL is manned during the daytime but only per the city contract for the award.
NC Pilot
Cleared for Takeoff
Oh!!! I see the problem. He was going to offer fuel at a $1.00/gallon savings. He should be offering $.50/ gallon savings with the other $.50 going to the appropriate officials in the finest in Chicago traditions.
Actually, the crux of the matter seems to be that he just wants to open a self fueling station without the attendant FBO located on the field to offer other services.
Actually, the crux of the matter seems to be that he just wants to open a self fueling station without the attendant FBO located on the field to offer other services.
poadeleted20
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The FAA has a number of requirements that tag along with any Federal dollars given to an airport. One is the requirement to allow fair competition. However, there is also a clause that allows Federally-funded airports to give exclusive contracts to FBO's to operate on their airport when (in accordance with Federally-mandated procedures) the airport determines that there is not enough business to keep more than one FBO in business.
In this case, the FBO is contractually required to provide a certain minimum range of services, including maintenance, fueling, training/rental, etc. However, to protect the lone FBO, no other operator can move in with any one service already provided by the existing FBO without providing all those services and showing that there is enough business to allow two FBO's to operate profitably. This is the situation at my home airport (Salisbury MD), where Bay Land Aviation cannot withdraw any of its contractually-required services without losing its lease, but no other outfit can come in and offer any of those services to the public, since there really isn't enough business there for two FBO's -- as far as I can see, there's barely enough to keep Bay Land solvent.
Since it sounds like Chicago Executive is not a very big field, and has only one FBO, this might be the Federal standard that would be "violated" by allowing a second fueling operation in competition with the only FBO on the field. The airport management simply can't allow the only full-service FBO on the field (which probably keeps its head above water with fuel sales) to be put out of business by a competitor providing only fuel, leaving the airport with no other services.
JohnR
Final Approach
Good cogent explanation, Capt. Ron, of a common situation. It sure explains why you can't make any money in aviation. There's basically no competition allowed, and you can't pick and choose only those services that are profitable. Thank you, Federal Government.
Everskyward
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I don't think this is the case with Chicago Executive. While it isn't exactly big in a physical sense it's definitely on the busy side. It has at least two FBOs now, Signature and Atlantic.
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wsuffa
Touchdown! Greaser!
Nope. The Park District never has any money, which is one of the ironies about supposedly turning Meigs into a park.
They were going to remove a few feet of dirt, lay in a barrier, and put in new fill. You know. The same as any private company could do.
Mike, we both know that it only takes a small "contract" with a waste-hauling company to get all the landfill you want...
And North American Jet...and Palwaukee Flyers...and American Flyers...and more I dunno top of my head
ScottM
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iBazinga!
Palwauke Flyers is no longer and FBO just a flight school.
The joke is when i decided I wanted to buy some charts ASAP I found there is only one pilot shop and it's in a flight school in an office building attached to the airport. I didn't try Signature or Atlantic.
gprellwitz
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Grant Prellwitz
That pilot shop's been there for years. Leslie got my headset there, IIRC.
ScottM
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iBazinga!
I don't know the name of the shop but I have been in it before and it is nice.
There is also another nice pilot shop down at Lewis that I like.
poadeleted20
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I think you misstate the situation. Competition is required to be allowed unless the airport can show that competition would be destructive to all parties concerned, and having both FBO's go belly up doesn't help anyone. In addition, if the sole FBO were allowed to "pick and choose only those services that are profitable," then we would have airports where the "unprofitable" services are unavailable, and I think you'd find many of those services necessary to most airport tenants and visitors. Alternatively, if interlopers were allowed to "cherry pick" the profitable services like fuel, the full-service FBO would be lost, and that's not good, either.
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EHITCH
Pre-takeoff checklist
Unfortunately, American Flyers closed its PWK operation at the end of May and consolidated ops at DPA. AF advised their active students, one of whom is a friend and fellow 99, that they had wished to remain at PWK, but the airport manager did not respond to repeated inquiries regarding renewal of their lease, and they just got tired with the lack of responsiveness and seeming disinterest in working with them.
The airport intends to demolish most, if not all, of the structures on land it owns at the southeast corner of the airport -- there is a strip of land bordering Milwaukee Avenue that includes, among other properties, buildings that contained American Flyers -- and rebuild, depending on which story you choose to believe, a new terminal, new FBO, whatever.
All signs point to PWK's management aiming for the high-end biz market, as others here have pointed out.
Also, while we're talking "Chicago" airports, let us not forget that the Gary Airport, which is located in Indiana, is marketing itself as Gary-Chicago Airport. Say what? There was a report on news radio this morning that they continue to seek carriers that would provide a robust schedule, and that local biz execs have advised they would use Gary if there were more flights available.
Finally, I have repeatedly advised my boss that Northwestern should take advantage of its lakefront location in Evanston -- a scant 13 miles from downtown Chicago -- and build an airport on our campus. I'll continue to lobby for this Meigs replacement, but I'd appreciate it if you good folks would send some dollars my way so I can grease the wheels of progress in the interests of general aviation. All contributions would go to a very good cause (supporting GA and helping me earn my helo rating). Send cash only, Benjamins are a good start.
Elizabeth
Yep. We're back to what else is there? If they kill all flight training, they'll get all pistons eventually too.
The Gary airport IS part of the Chicago airport system. Daley agreed to share the airport money with Gary in hopes that he could keep Peotone from being built. Then Gary has the attitude like PWK only GYY is an airliner airport and they don't want these flibs that are clogging the space they need for the airliners that are coming real soon now.
bstratt
Cleared for Takeoff
To the best of my knowledge yes it is, but I think the latest I've been there was around midnight.