FAA Medical certification and DUI/DWI Alcohol events

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
We have frequently discussed what the FAA has to say to applicants who had DUI/DWI events in their history.

Attached are PDF files I found on the FAA website that might provide the gallery with more information
 

Attachments

  • DUIDWI_Alcohol_Incidents_Disposition_Table[1].pdf
    32.7 KB · Views: 1,138
  • AlcoholStatusReportforAME[1].pdf
    67.9 KB · Views: 498
  • FAA_Certification_Aid_DA_Initial[1].pdf
    59 KB · Views: 505
Aggie, I think what you need to post before you make a sticky is:

(1) The ONLY situation an AME can issue after a DUI is if he can show it is the "one and only " and the airman blew, and the BAC was 0.149 or less.
(2) Two publically recorded incidents of alcohol behavior (can be a domestic dispute, a wet reckless plead down, and OWI-watercraft, or a minor in possession) is automatically abuse by 67.307 and is a special issuance.
(3) If #2, the obligation is to show this is not alcohol Dependency, and that requires a HIMS Psychiatrist (list not published, go through HIMS AME). They are traced for outcomes, like HIMS AMEs and they want tools- negative random urines, testimony of employers, AA attendance logs, etc, and a 10 year DMV search. The definition of Dependency has NO relevance to that you have been sober for 10 years. FAA wants to know that you're not a "white knuckler" dry drunk.
(4) If you ever have any of the following you are in trouble, and FAA thinks you need rehab (and you do):

Lifestyle centered on the use of alcohol
Tolerance
ANY withdrawal syndrome EVER in your life.
Continued use in the face of know adverse consequences
Blackouts

Rehab is really education. It's like going to class. Full time for a month.
 
Aggie, I think what you need to post before you make a sticky is:

(1) The ONLY situation an AME can issue after a DUI is if he can show it is the "one and only " and the airman blew, and the BAC was 0.149 or less.
(2) Two publically recorded incidents of alcohol behavior (can be a domestic dispute, a wet reckless plead down, and OWI-watercraft, or a minor in possession) is automatically abuse by 67.307 and is a special issuance.
(3) If #2, the obligation is to show this is not alcohol Dependency, and that requires a HIMS Psychiatrist (list not published, go through HIMS AME). They are traced for outcomes, like HIMS AMEs and they want tools- negative random urines, testimony of employers, AA attendance logs, etc, and a 10 year DMV search. The definition of Dependency has NO relevance to that you have been sober for 10 years. FAA wants to know that you're not a "white knuckler" dry drunk.
(4) If you ever have any of the following you are in trouble, and FAA thinks you need rehab (and you do):

Lifestyle centered on the use of alcohol
Tolerance
ANY withdrawal syndrome EVER in your life.
Continued use in the face of know adverse consequences
Blackouts

Rehab is really education. It's like going to class. Full time for a month.
Thanks Dr. Bruce.....

My plans are to ask for your help in reviewing anything I plan for a sticky to ensure the info is accurate. Similar to what you did here.
 
(3) If #2, the obligation is to show this is not alcohol Dependency, and that requires a HIMS Psychiatrist (list not published, go through HIMS AME). They are traced for outcomes, like HIMS AMEs and they want tools- negative random urines, testimony of employers, AA attendance logs, etc, and a 10 year DMV search. The definition of Dependency has NO relevance to that you have been sober for 10 years. FAA wants to know that you're not a "white knuckler" dry drunk.

I have seen on other posts that you may be able to give some advice, I'm not sure how to message you directly so I hope this would be okay.

I would like to obtain a class 1 medical but my fear is I am just not eligible. I have an OUI in 2005, I can not remember my BAL but I think it was just over .15, it was pleaded down to under. Here is where it seems I disqualify myself. In 1999 I received a minor in possession of alcohol, 2002 leaving the scene of an accident case filed, no damage to anyone. I have 3 alcohol related crimes, even though the leaving the scene was not an OUI but truth would be I had been drinking. I understand how this paints a picture of me. The OUI was in 2005 and I had not learned my lessons. I take full responsibility and I am not trying to minimize anything, I am ashamed of this behavior, the people I put at risk and the total lack of civic and moral values this lifestyle embraced. I had turned my life around since my OUI, but in 2010 I was in a car accident on a bridge. It was night, a car had rolled over and the undercarriage was facing me, no street lights, raining so I did not see it until I was right on top of it. I was able to get around but lost control of my car and came close to going off the bridge. I was hurt a bit and very shaken up. A woman stopped and asked me if I needed help and offered to drive me off the bridge as it was a long, small dark bridge and other people were having the same issue I was. I lived right aft we r the bridge, she took me home and I called the police right away and explained what had happened. They charged me with leaving the scene, now 2 on my record. This was not alcohol related, yet the police were very angry I did not stay. This case was filed. I have no other crimes, no drug related tickets or anything else. If I was to make a professional decision on a case like this I would feel there are so many red flags and it concerns me to even try and start the process.

After 2005 I went into school for social work. Received my degree, went to work as a social worker, doing human service as I was in school. Went on to specialize in substance abuse, helped the small company I worked for open up their therapy, case management department. I ran the case management department and was responsible for the cases and treatment of many cases. I also since became married, adopted a child and had a biological one of my own. I had to leave social work and start a delivery/food service business due to money as my wife was a full time student going for her psychiatric nurse practitioner degree. I give this extra information to try and show that the mistakes I made have been changed and I do not like a lifestyle like the one of my younger years. I still will drink but maybe once a month of that much, do not drive when having drinks. I do not have dependency or am I just white knuckling through my days. The lifestyle is a part of my past when I had no direction and was a selfish person. The OUI itself forced me to fix my life and I am thankful I had never hurt anyone and found a better path. I just feel that the 2010 issue will stick out as I did not change and I am still the same person. I was truly scared on that bridge and i would choose to get into that car 10 out of ten times today.

Do I have any chance to obtain a class 1 medical or have my poor choices permanently left me not being able to become a pilot?

Thank you for any input you may have. It feels shameful to even write this down and to review how I choose to live my life durning that time.
 
not only do you have a chance, there are class 1 pilots who have required more than one pass thru the HIMS protocol!
 
If you read it carefully, this automatically goes into the 67.307 case and becomes a special issuance, not an automatic denial. It is not impossible, but it will take effort. Contact a senior AME and get started with a consult.
 
@Maineflight ....

First, I am not an AME.... just an observant airman and forum participant who wishes to help others learn how to "own their medical" and be educated on the certification process.

Second, this needs to be something that you discuss with the correct AME who thoroughly understands how to help and advocate for applicants who have alcohol or substance abuse in their medical history. Two such AME's who participate on this board are Dr. Bruce Chien (@bbchien) or Dr. Lou Fowler (@lbfjrmd). I suggest taking this "offline" by contacting them directly to learn what to expect to make the process happen, and how to get started.

Third, there are many other alcohol related threads in this forum. Using the search feature, I found posts/threads in the following link. I suggest you review them to aid in familiarizing what the FAA will expect of you.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/search/17363687/?q=alcohol&o=date&c[node]=13
 
If you read it carefully, this automatically goes into the 67.307 case and becomes a special issuance, not an automatic denial. It is not impossible, but it will take effort. Contact a senior AME and get started with a consult.

Yes, I was planning on contacting a lawyer in regards to this. You feel I should also talk directly to a AME, so I could have a consultation with him/her and they may be able to give advice.

Thank you for the direction.
 
Yes, I was planning on contacting a lawyer in regards to this. You feel I should also talk directly to a AME, so I could have a consultation with him/her and they may be able to give advice.

Thank you for the direction.
Only talk to a lawyer who is board certified in aviation law.

A "regular criminal law" lawyer will not have the knowledge, experience, or expertise for FAA related items.
 
Yes, I was planning on contacting a lawyer in regards to this. You feel I should also talk directly to a AME, so I could have a consultation with him/her and they may be able to give advice.

Thank you for the direction.

Lawyer won’t help. There are also professional pilot jobs that don’t require an FAA class I.

Not just any AME will do; Mike provided two references to qualified and competent AMEs that specialize in this area.
 
You feel I should also talk directly to a AME
I said you should talk to a specific AME. Not just any of them you'd find in phonebook.

All AME's are good for "run of the mill, nothing to report" cases. But only a small number are qualified to properly help you with your situation. And continue to be your advocate as your application makes it way through the system.

Two of these I have already mentioned. Dr. Lou Fowler, @lbfjrmd, and Dr. Bruce Chien, @bbchien.
 
@Maineflight ....

First, I am not an AME.... just an observant airman and forum participant who wishes to help others learn how to "own their medical" and be educated on the certification process.

Second, this needs to be something that you discuss with the correct AME who thoroughly understands how to help and advocate for applicants who have alcohol or substance abuse in their medical history. Two such AME's who participate on this board are Dr. Bruce Chien (@bbchien) or Dr. Lou Fowler (@lbfjrmd). I suggest taking this "offline" by contacting them directly to learn what to expect to make the process happen, and how to get started.

Third, there are many other alcohol related threads in this forum. Using the search feature, I found posts/threads in the following link. I suggest you review them to aid in familiarizing what the FAA will expect of you.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/search/17363687/?q=alcohol&o=date&c[node]=13


Thank you,
@Maineflight ....

First, I am not an AME.... just an observant airman and forum participant who wishes to help others learn how to "own their medical" and be educated on the certification process.

Second, this needs to be something that you discuss with the correct AME who thoroughly understands how to help and advocate for applicants who have alcohol or substance abuse in their medical history. Two such AME's who participate on this board are Dr. Bruce Chien (@bbchien) or Dr. Lou Fowler (@lbfjrmd). I suggest taking this "offline" by contacting them directly to learn what to expect to make the process happen, and how to get started.

Third, there are many other alcohol related threads in this forum. Using the search feature, I found posts/threads in the following link. I suggest you review them to aid in familiarizing what the FAA will expect of you.

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/search/17363687/?q=alcohol&o=date&c[node]=13

That is very helpful, I posted in here to try and contact "bbchien". I have found his profile but did not see how to send a PM. I would love to talk with him offline.
 
You do not need a lawyer and that you thought of a lawyer is troubling. Getting your medical is not an argument and it isn't a negotiation. You will tell the FAA every medical fact about yourself and then they will tell you in detail what you must do to gain their approval. There are no versions of the truth, there are no legally agreed to facts. There is only what actually happened and saying anything except that is unacceptable.
 
I said you should talk to a specific AME. Not just any of them you'd find in phonebook.

All AME's are good for "run of the mill, nothing to report" cases. But only a small number are qualified to properly help you with your situation. And continue to be your advocate as your application makes it way through the system.

Two of these I have already mentioned. Dr. Lou Fowler, @lbfjrmd, and Dr. Bruce Chien, @bbchien.


Understood, I will
You do not need a lawyer and that you thought of a lawyer is troubling. Getting your medical is not an argument and it isn't a negotiation. You will tell the FAA every medical fact about yourself and then they will tell you in detail what you must do to gain their approval. There are no versions of the truth, there are no legally agreed to facts. There is only what actually happened and saying anything except that is unacceptable.

Oh I am not looking to try to hid anything. I have just seen that an avaction lawyer can help. I have gotten all my court records, requested all police reports and will turn over all medical reports, requested all files from the lawyer that handled my OUI case to make sure a full objective story is told through all the reports. I will not be trying to minamize anything, I take full responsibility for the poor choices I made. I made these choices, no one else. I am prepared to answer any question they may have honestly.

The lawyer was not to try and argue for me but to give me the best advice. From what I am seeing here however is that I need a AME who has a true understanding of the type of case I have.
 
Once you have the court records, the lawyer's help is done. Any attempted legal wrangling in the medical process will be seen as avoidance.

From what you've said here, you should be entirely within the realm of being able to get a medical, but it's a long road. It can be done.
 
Yes, I was planning on contacting a lawyer in regards to this. You feel I should also talk directly to a AME, so I could have a consultation with him/her and they may be able to give advice.

Thank you for the direction.


IMHO ... legal is a blind alley for airman certification issues!!!!!!
 
That is very helpful, I posted in here to try and contact "bbchien". I have found his profile but did not see how to send a PM. I would love to talk with him offline.
To send a private message to any member of PoA, click their name below the avatar, then select "start a conversation". A "conversation" is this forums way of doing private messages.

The better way to discuss with Dr. Bruce is via his "How to Start" page on his website, http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/

The best way to start a conversation with Dr. Lou is via an email message, lbfjrmd@gmail.com
 
I want to thank everyone who posted and gave great advice, help me better understand the process and relieve some of the anxiety I had with my issues. As many have said it will be a long road and it seem that's how it should be with a person who has the marks I have.

I have reached out to @lbfjrmd Dr. Bruce Chien, informed him of my story and given a bit more info than here.

I am amazed by the community of pilots. I started my questions on reddit and the high amount of negativity really was off putting. I felt like a fool for even asking questions about OUI, or my record when the responses came in. I am very glad to have found this site and again thank you to everyone who is truly trying to help people and giving direction and not just knocking down.

I hope to join all of you in the years to come.
 
I started my questions on reddit and the high amount of negativity really was off putting.

Unfortunately the Reddit population has more negative nannies than positive folks. And a whole lot of fluff and puffery to prove that whomever is writing the response is the correct source of info and anyone else on the planet is 100% wrong.
 
Unfortunately the Reddit population has more negative nannies than positive folks. And a whole lot of fluff and puffery to prove that whomever is writing the response is the correct source of info and anyone else on the planet is 100% wrong.

I am starting to see that as I have never been on community sites like that or this before, so I am learning. After the first 12 hours of responses it seemed i was not fit to even be in any job, and to think of a job as a pilot was just crazy.

I'm looking forward to working through this process, I have talked to flight schools in my area and found that I will be able to move semi quick for hours and look to earn a job as a flight instructor. I am lucky enough that I have my own business, I will be able to hire someone and still make money there and supplement it with the FI job. From there see what can be found through a regional. I may not be able to get to a major but I would be plenty happy doing regional.
 
...I have talked to flight schools in my area and found that I will be able to move semi quick for hours ...

I would be hesitant to start any training until you have a better idea of when you will be medically qualified. It’s not too far into the PPL before you will need the medical, which can sometimes take months to be get through with all the hoops that have to be jumped through.
 
@Maineflight ... I agree with @TCABM. Don't spend any money with a flight school UNTIL you have your medical certificate in hand.

Your primary focus needs to be obtaining your medical certificate
, not determining which path or flight school gets you into the right seat of a regional airline.

Even then, be wary with the zero to hero flight schools... There are a few that are okay, but many more that should be avoided.

While you are waiting to get the medical sorted, you can start reading two key books provided from the FAA for free:
  • Pilot's Handbook of Aviation Knowledge (often referred to as "The PHAK")
  • Airplane Flying Handbook (often referred to as the "AFM")

Again, these can be downloaded for free. And are good basic texts to teach you private pilot ground school items
 
I would be hesitant to start any training until you have a better idea of when you will be medically qualified. It’s not too far into the PPL before you will need the medical, which can sometimes take months to be get through with all the hoops that have to be jumped through.

Yes, I'm looking to see what my medical will bring, at least get a much clearer idea before I start to pay all the money for the lessons. Even if I am unable to do this as a job I will want to fly even if it's for fun. As you said, I should get my ducks together and start to form a line.
 
@Maineflight ... I agree with @TCABM. Don't spend any money with a flight school UNTIL you have your medical certificate in hand.

Your primary focus needs to be obtaining your medical certificate
, not determining which path or flight school gets you into the right seat of a regional airline.

Even then, be wary with the zero to hero flight schools... There are a few that are okay, but many more that should be avoided.

While you are waiting to get the medical sorted, you can start reading two key books provided from the FAA for free:
  • Pilot's Handbook of Aviation Knowledge (often referred to as "The PHAK")
  • Airplane Flying Handbook (often referred to as the "AFM")

Again, these can be downloaded for free. And are good basic texts to teach you private pilot ground school items


Wow, thank you. I will be downloading them. Some of the schools I talked with seemed great until I did more research and they seemed to be not so on the up and up. The one I would like was clear about the hours and how it will take more than the minimum, the only school that was upfront about it. Talked about what they offered and recamended but gave stories of people that did and did not need the extra. All in all one at least seems good from first looking.

But as you said get my medical first, that school informed me I can do that first and felt it may be best for me with my concerns.

Thank you for the books. I'm sure this will help with the understanding of the knowledge needed.
 
Wow, thank you. I will be downloading them. Some of the schools I talked with seemed great until I did more research and they seemed to be not so on the up and up. The one I would like was clear about the hours and how it will take more than the minimum, the only school that was upfront about it. Talked about what they offered and recamended but gave stories of people that did and did not need the extra. All in all one at least seems good from first looking.

But as you said get my medical first, that school informed me I can do that first and felt it may be best for me with my concerns.

Thank you for the books. I'm sure this will help with the understanding of the knowledge needed.
A school that told you to get your medical first is one I would definitely keep in mind for after you have the medical in hand. That level of looking out for students (even prospective ones) seems to be rare, based on what has been posted here over the years.
 
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