FAA/Aeronav Digital Product Changes

chartbundle

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Well, I finally received a letter from the FAA about their digital product changes, some of the wording is a bit interesting. The preamble is inviting people to a meeting in December about the changes, this is what they say the background for the change is.

FAA's Aeronautical Navigation (AeroNav) Products has reengineered its business processes. One of the changes that we have identified is the need to have clear agreements with Authorized Agents on the distribution and packaging of our digital products. As safety is the key mission of the FAA, it is imperative that the integrity of our navigation products is maintained in digital forms just as it is in paper forms. April 5, 2012 will be the last edition of our products that will be distributed to individuals or businesses without an agreement. This forum is an opportunity to exchange ideas with interested entities and gain feedback on these agreements.
So, basically, they want money. The interesting bit is the part about distribution to individuals without an agreement, you have to wonder if this includes things like the A/FD and TPP they provide on their website for anyone to look at.
 
WTF?? When the FAA stopped charging for charts, I thought they were stepping in the right direction. When they stopped accepting returns on printed charts, I thought they were stepping even further in the right direction.

Now...sigh...
 
Has anyone seen the agreements? do they mention money?

I can see where they would be worried about folks "republishing" and possibly altering data that has gone through QA stages already. Perhaps the agreement will just bind folks not to alter the data.

I'm not sure they can charge for the data - just like the printed books - there is no copyright involved. What I pay for my NACO DVD of approach plate is probably just enough to cover the manufacture and shipping.
 
Perhaps the agreement will just bind folks not to alter the data.

I read it that way too. Paranoia about liability. That and chopping off legends, etc.

Probably says "Publish it ALL or you can't republish it."

(Evil eye at Foreflight... and Seattle Avionics...)
 
I read it that way too. Paranoia about liability. That and chopping off legends, etc.

Probably says "Publish it ALL or you can't republish it."

(Evil eye at Foreflight... and Seattle Avionics...)

ForeFlight and others stitch the charts together for a seamless transition between charts. If the problem is not printing the legends, then the companies can get around that with offering the legend data on a pop up software menu item. Most likely they may also be concerned with expiration dates as on printed charts.
 
Understand. I just wish you could "UN-stitch" if you want to and see the stuff. Or access it from a menu.

Actually with the stitched can you even tell which chart you're looking at? I'm not seeing a way to tell.

It's funny that the download menu shows charts by State now that I think about it. Not by the old Sectional boundaries...
 
I suppose I should have included the first paragraph where you get the implication about them charging more.

Please join us for an open discussion about becoming a digital product agent on December 13 from 9:00AM till 4:30PM. This meeting covers the terms of the agreement, including review and input from potentially interested parties on the contract and pricing structures associated with digital agents. RSVPs requested.
I suspect they plan to get around the fact that it's public domain data not by copyright but by licensing it. So, anyone who wants the data at all has to sign the agreement and pay the fees. One item will surely be that whoever you give/sell the data to is also bound by the same agreement.

Edit:
I guess even if the fees are reasonable, sites like mine who just repackage the FAA data, instead of embedding it into a product, are probably out. I have no idea who my customers are and surely can't hold them to a license agreement.
 
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This update issue is causing a problem for Dave at RunwayFinder.com... see his site's note about update timing and availability.
 
AFAIK; I was the first person to notice the (stealth) annc on the FAA
website re: these changes. I posted to the Red Board and spoke with
the principals at a few other operations that re-package & distribute the
AeroNav info (in more usable formats). Nobody I spoke with, had been
contacted proactively by FAA.

AeroNav's talking-head (Abby) was quite chatty. She must've felt it to be
very important that I perceive the withdrawl of their info as a "safety
improvement." She stated that aspect three-times during our
conversation. She also mentioned:

- Encryption requirements (DRM?)
- Digital distribution agreements
- (License?) fees based on the qty of subscribers

On our 3rd call, she was a angry that I had queried the NTSB re: this so-
called "safety improvement" strategy ... and blurted out:

- Why are you contacting the NTSB about a FAA web-commerce project?

- (paraphrasing) "It costs $150 million per year to run this organization
and we've got to recover our costs."

I suspect that she then realized that she'd said too much, and indicated
that answers to my other questions (fees, contracts, etc) would require
signing a non-disclosure statement.

From what I am able to determine, AeroNav intends to begin selling their
information on-line, in the April 2012 timeframe.

FWIW; I did contact AOPA. They we uninterested & unresponsive. Expect
a panic email blast from Craig, packaged as yet another fundraising notice.
 
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I do understand that they have a business problem.

Their business model bundled the cost of developing the chart data along with the cost of printing and shipping charts.

Giving away the digital version eliminates some of the cost, but not all of it. How do they get paid for the tasks that have to get done no matter what format? Should that be paid for by the taxpayers if it was previously paid for by chart sales?
 
I suspect that she then realized that she'd said too much, and indicated
that answers to my other questions (fees, contracts, etc) would require
signing a non-disclosure statement.
Under what circumstances does the FAA (or any part of the Federal government) think that a NDA is a valid mode of operation.
 
Under what circumstances does the FAA (or any part of the Federal government) think that a NDA is a valid mode of operation.

That's bogus, and probably illegal. Nothing the Gov't produces is supposed to be copyrighted or otherwise protected, unless it's somehow considered "sensitive" or national security information. Since they publish all the chart data, it can't fall into those categories.

If the charting operation cannot support itself with the sale of paper charts (and I can see where tools like Foreflight and WingX would kill chart sales in the same way that e-mail and online payment is killing first-class mail), then there are only a few options:

If the collection and development of the master chart data is a governmental function (and I think it is), then how is that paid for?

Either the taxpayers pay for it (and any paper chart products bear the cost of their production and shipping, and any digital products bear the cost of the infrastructure to support dissemination such as servers and bandwidth).

Or the users pay for it, and pay the Gov't or a third party for it.

Consider a world where Jeppesen is the only source for paper charts, and there is a smaller-but-not-zero charge for digital info.

The "cloud" is not free, and we should stop pretending that there's no cost to digital products.
 
...
The "cloud" is not free, and we should stop pretending that there's no cost to digital products.

Hello Tim,
I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that the products developed by the US Govt. are "free". Just like the air traffic control system and all it's support, it's paid for by taxpayers and taxes (fuel and income taxes in my case).

Kind of like funding public schools to educate children of those who choose to have children, and then paying that 1 out of 1000 that becomes a doctor to actually do some doctoring on my behalf. Pay twice for the same service.

I develop the Android OpenFlight* products, and have distributed the free version of the chart viewer for free (and ongoing chart updates) to something like 10,000 pilots. Most of these users are indeed getting something for "free" - I spent a lot of time and effort developing the program, and I pay for the servers to serve the maps on an ongoing basis. I recover a fraction of my costs by selling an "Unlimited" version of the GPS-enabled OpenFlightGPS.

If the FAA decides to charge for the current free digital downloads, it will drive me out of the business of providing this app to many pilots at absolutely no cost. These are products that I have developed for my own use due to my desire to take advantage of the tablet/cell form factor devices, but there will be a point that it will no longer be reasonable for me to provide this service to the already beleaguered general aviation pilot.

Roger
 
Hello Tim,
I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that the products developed by the US Govt. are "free". Just like the air traffic control system and all it's support, it's paid for by taxpayers and taxes (fuel and income taxes in my case).

Kind of like funding public schools to educate children of those who choose to have children, and then paying that 1 out of 1000 that becomes a doctor to actually do some doctoring on my behalf. Pay twice for the same service.

I develop the Android OpenFlight* products, and have distributed the free version of the chart viewer for free (and ongoing chart updates) to something like 10,000 pilots. Most of these users are indeed getting something for "free" - I spent a lot of time and effort developing the program, and I pay for the servers to serve the maps on an ongoing basis. I recover a fraction of my costs by selling an "Unlimited" version of the GPS-enabled OpenFlightGPS.

If the FAA decides to charge for the current free digital downloads, it will drive me out of the business of providing this app to many pilots at absolutely no cost. These are products that I have developed for my own use due to my desire to take advantage of the tablet/cell form factor devices, but there will be a point that it will no longer be reasonable for me to provide this service to the already beleaguered general aviation pilot.

Roger
I'm one of your users and it's a good product. Thanks.

Ryan
 
The FAA needs to pay for the 30 years of nexgen development. They see a HUGE money stream here.

But in reality, if I am paying for charts, i will pay Jepp before the FAA. Its just a principle thing. I pay federal taxes that go to the FAA, I pay fuel taxes that go to the FAA. I'm not paying a monthly fee for something that is already paid for in my eyes.

Proof yet again that the FAA doesn't want to promote aviation or safety. They just want to promote themselves.

Sure we don't know if fees are part of this new system, but we all know it will be. The only time government wants to count people, is so they know how many need to pay up.
 
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Hello Tim,
I'm not sure anyone is suggesting that the products developed by the US Govt. are "free". Just like the air traffic control system and all it's support, it's paid for by taxpayers and taxes (fuel and income taxes in my case).

Kind of like funding public schools to educate children of those who choose to have children, and then paying that 1 out of 1000 that becomes a doctor to actually do some doctoring on my behalf. Pay twice for the same service.

I develop the Android OpenFlight* products, and have distributed the free version of the chart viewer for free (and ongoing chart updates) to something like 10,000 pilots. Most of these users are indeed getting something for "free" - I spent a lot of time and effort developing the program, and I pay for the servers to serve the maps on an ongoing basis. I recover a fraction of my costs by selling an "Unlimited" version of the GPS-enabled OpenFlightGPS.

If the FAA decides to charge for the current free digital downloads, it will drive me out of the business of providing this app to many pilots at absolutely no cost. These are products that I have developed for my own use due to my desire to take advantage of the tablet/cell form factor devices, but there will be a point that it will no longer be reasonable for me to provide this service to the already beleaguered general aviation pilot.

Roger

Let me try to make my position clear. On the subject of instrument approach plates (and this probably applies to the other charts as well):

First, the FAA has to create the procedures themselves. That's their job, and it's clearly in the public interest to do so. So in my opinion, that task should be funded by public revenue (taxes). That gets the textual descriptions of the procedures that AeroNav and Jeppesen (and probably others) use to develop the charts themselves.

Then, there is the process (cartography?) of creating the charts, which results in an image. Whether this is a public function or not can be debated.

Then there's the process of taking that image, and distributing it, either on paper charts, on a DVD of charts, or online for download. This, I believe, is a function that AeroNav can legitimately charge for. However, the data itself should not be copyrighted or licensed. If you pay for the product, you should be able to make unlimited copies and redistribute as you see fit. From a safety standpoint you should certify and be ready to prove that the charts were not compromised in any way. Don't want to do that? Don't go into the charting business (which is what Jeppesen, and to a lesser extent Foreflight and Hilton and possibly you.. are in now). Someone who comes to grief because the chart was altered should be able to sue the alterer to recover their losses. There ARE differences - Chartflier used to have large gaps in the offshore areas that existed in the paper charts, and that's unacceptable. They're fixed now.

If the FAA is selling fewer printed charts, then they probably have to reduce the staffing levels associated with those tasks. They should NOT start to try and charge for other products in an effort to keep staffing up. When the car came along the buggy and buggy-whip and tack and other horse-and-carriage businesses suffered. Tough.

So, I'm fine with the FAA recouping their production and distribution costs for the digital products. I pay a couple hundred bucks a year for approach plate DVDs every 28 days. That's reasonable to me to cover the cost of making the DVD and shipping it to me. I don't want to pay a dime more, and I don't want them telling me that I owe them MORE money if I copy the DVD, or if I use it to make the plates available on the internet.

If they wanted to charge for download products, they should be able to come up with a subscription fee that would give access to all the products for a year, at a cost that would cover the expenses of hosting the data and the associated bandwidth. And again, there should be no licensing or copyright. If someone downloads the data and re-hosts it, that's not costing the FAA anything, and they have no "right" to expect income on the data except for those who get it from them directly, and the income should only cover their expenses, they're not a for-profit organization.

And Roger, if you're only recovering a fraction of your costs... then you're a heck of a nice guy, but you aren't a business. Folks who take Gov't charts and redistribute them SHOULD be able to sell a product for less money than Jeppesen, because Jeppesen does the cartography. But "Less than Jepp"!="Free".
 
I'm not sure this is all about FAA staffing, Tim. Servers, data centers, and bandwidth aren't free.

If they didn't deploy them correctly and utilize the best available software for the server tasks, their staff level will stay the same or even go higher, but will migrate from chart people to piles of sysadmins maintaining badly deployed server farms.

I've found that the number of admins who understand how to build server farms in a cost-effective way vs those who just build without any thought to ongoing maintenance is about a 5:1 ratio, just by personal observation. It used to be about 3:1 ten years ago.

Cost/Risk analysis is weak in most IT people's heads including leadership.
 
I'm not sure this is all about FAA staffing, Tim. Servers, data centers, and bandwidth aren't free.

If they didn't deploy them correctly and utilize the best available software for the server tasks, their staff level will stay the same or even go higher, but will migrate from chart people to piles of sysadmins maintaining badly deployed server farms.

I've found that the number of admins who understand how to build server farms in a cost-effective way vs those who just build without any thought to ongoing maintenance is about a 5:1 ratio, just by personal observation. It used to be about 3:1 ten years ago.

Cost/Risk analysis is weak in most IT people's heads including leadership.

Your last sentence doesn't make sense to me, unless you're trying to say that IT management doesn't do planning well. No argument. I spend most of my work week telling IT management "are you SURE you want to do that?"

I'm going to RSVP to the Aeronav meeting and see what they say. I understand their need to be revenue neutral, and I agree that publishing stuff on the net isn't "free". Copyright for this stuff is BS.
 
I called in and RSVP'ed for the 13th. I'll fill everybody in on what I learn. I was asked what company I was with, and replied that I was a private subscriber. I don't think it would be appropriate for them to ask for a non-disclosure agreement on the meeting, and if they do ask for one I'm going to call my congresscritters.
 
The FAA needs to pay for the 30 years of nexgen development. They see a HUGE money stream here.

But in reality, if I am paying for charts, i will pay Jepp before the FAA. Its just a principle thing. I pay federal taxes that go to the FAA, I pay fuel taxes that go to the FAA. I'm not paying a monthly fee for something that is already paid for in my eyes.
you do realize, don't you, when you pay Jepp you are also paying the FAA? Jepp has to buy the data from the feds, too. So you're paying for it twice either way.
Proof yet again that the FAA doesn't want to promote aviation or safety. They just want to promote themselves.

Sure we don't know if fees are part of this new system, but we all know it will be. The only time government wants to count people, is so they know how many need to pay up.
 
you do realize, don't you, when you pay Jepp you are also paying the FAA? Jepp has to buy the data from the feds, too. So you're paying for it twice either way.
Jepp does NOT (to my knowledge) have to pay for the data in part 97. I'm sure there are expenses they have ensuring that their charts meet standards (QA and such) but I don't think they pay any fees to the gov't at all for their charting business.

They charge what they charge because their customers feel they have a better product, and are worth it.
 
As far as I know, the US government can't copyright anything.
That's what I think, but they're trying to "license" something. To me, you can't license something you don't own, and the whole point of the gov't not being able to copyright stuff is that they don't own what they develop on taxpayer money. They may restrict dissemination for security or other compelling reasons, but they don't own it, and they can't charge for it. They're allowed to charge for the cost of dissemination (i.e. the GPO), but NOT for the information itself.

Which is why I think it's appropriate for the Aeronav folks to charge me for the cost of the DVD with all the charts on it, but it's not appropriate for them to tell me I can't make thousands of copies of it or put the charts on the internet, as long as I'm footing the bill for the copies or the hosting.
 
Exactly. But then again, its not like the government has been sticking to the rules lately.
 
What's next... a subscription-based website to access TFR's??? This is bogus. We should help pay for the maintenance of the charts and do, through taxes and fees... but we shouldn't also have to pay to access the information. The cost of delivering the data digitally is nothing compared to the cost of paper, printing, packaging, and shipping.
Tim
 
I think I'd actually be happy with fee-based government, as long as I can pay for what I want, and not have to pay for anything I don't want, and that the money I pay for purpose A can ONLY be used for purpose A.

Example. I choose not to pay for fire response, and my neighbor does. My house catches fire. The fire department comes out and protects my neighbor's house while mine burns down.

I choose not to pay for roads, I'm not allowed to drive on them.

We all choose not to pay for the protection of the President, that whole branch of the USSS goes away (along with the TFRs).

And yes, I do understand how difficult it would be to implement a system like this, and why we do it the way we do.

To veer back to the original topic - if Aeronav was FULLY self-supporting - meaning that none of the costs (including employee salaries and benefits) were paid by the taxpayer in any form (and that includes giving the gov't "free" charts), then they could set any fees they like, and I could buy charts from them or Jepp. And if nobody bought charts from them, then they go out of business.

The minute taxpayer dollars go into the generation of those charts (because they're being made for the FAA or DOD or DOT or...), then those charts are public data, and the only cost a citizen should incur should be the cost of producing/distributing them in the desired form.
 
That's what I think, but they're trying to "license" something. To me, you can't license something you don't own, and the whole point of the gov't not being able to copyright stuff is that they don't own what they develop on taxpayer money. They may restrict dissemination for security or other compelling reasons, but they don't own it, and they can't charge for it. They're allowed to charge for the cost of dissemination (i.e. the GPO), but NOT for the information itself.

Which is why I think it's appropriate for the Aeronav folks to charge me for the cost of the DVD with all the charts on it, but it's not appropriate for them to tell me I can't make thousands of copies of it or put the charts on the internet, as long as I'm footing the bill for the copies or the hosting.

Once they recover the full amount through user fees (eliminating taxpayer money) they can restrict usage of the data.

If the long-term plans for access to government-managed resources become similar to spectrum auctions (which essentially auction access to airwave spectrum to the highest bidder). If they head down that model, then we're looking at very substantial cost increases for our flying, from ATC to airport access.

The question is how much it will affect safety. Especially if the cost goes up substantially, and the FAA removes the "free" radio navaids (like VOR, ILS, etc) in favor of GPS.

In the current environment, it's easier to regulate something out of existance if there's not enough willingness to pay full-boat for developing the data. Government gets a bonus as it reduces DHS/TSA costs for small planes.
 
Every private pilot in this country should e-mail their senator and house rep. and tell them that they will no longer file flight plans, or use our transponders, we will simply be out there and the airlines can look for us..
 
Once they recover the full amount through user fees (eliminating taxpayer money) they can restrict usage of the data.

As long as they're doing the same thing Jepp does, and the only federal money they receive is in the form of product purchases from the government, then that's ok with me. But that means EVERYTHING (facilities/salary/benefits/etc) is paid for via sales. No subsidy of anything - no giving the FAA or DOD charts for free, employees are not federal, nothing. They're either a government entity (even if they're like the post office and only "partially" subsidized), or they're a private company and they play by the same rules as everyone else.

My problem with the current situation is that I'm worried that Aeronav is using logic (kind word) that says "well if Foreflight didn't redistribute it, those people would have to come to US, and that would increase OUR revenue". And because of this they feel entitled to take more money from Foreflight (because they redistribute the data) then they do from me (who doesn't redistribute), even though Foreflight and I do the same thing - obtain the data once from Aeronav.
 
Every private pilot in this country should e-mail their senator and house rep. and tell them that they will no longer file flight plans, or use our transponders, we will simply be out there and the airlines can look for us..

How many airliners are flying below 10,000 more then 30 miles from a Class B airport or in Class C airspace? Transponders are required in places where airliners are. The public has little appetite for little planes daring airliners to crash into them.
Jon
 
Every private pilot in this country should e-mail their senator and house rep. and tell them that they will no longer file flight plans, or use our transponders, we will simply be out there and the airlines can look for us..

Well, I wrote mine but I didn't say that.
 
Bear in mind that a few years back, they substantially restricted the number of outlets allowed to sell the paper charts, depriving many small FBOs and fllght schools of the ability to sell charts, and making charts substantially more difficult for pilots to buy. How much in the way of sales did they lose as a result of this decision?

This has "Jeppesen" written all over it.
 
Typical. Just when we get an easy system to use current charts for a reasonable price, the .gov goes and screws it up.


Were just a few years behind europe.


All too often I have seen this happen, were the .gov says that they will only use the money for its intent. Then the pot of extra gets big and it gets added to the general fund, and it all becomes one additional tax.
 
Well, I finally received a letter from the FAA about their digital product changes, some of the wording is a bit interesting. The preamble is inviting people to a meeting in December about the changes, this is what they say the background for the change is.

So, basically, they want money. The interesting bit is the part about distribution to individuals without an agreement, you have to wonder if this includes things like the A/FD and TPP they provide on their website for anyone to look at.

Have they (the FAA) published what the plan, standards and costs will be yet? If so, where might one find it?
 
Have they (the FAA) published what the plan, standards and costs will be yet? If so, where might one find it?

Without re-reading the entire thread...

Meeting coming up soon, public is invited. Believe someone from POA is going on a recon mission to the meeting.
 
Have they (the FAA) published what the plan, standards and costs will be yet? If so, where might one find it?

As far as I know they've just announced the meeting for December when they'll probably spring the whole thing on us.
 
As far as I know they've just announced the meeting for December when they'll probably spring the whole thing on us.

I get the feeling that "it's a done deal" and any concerns at the meeting will be on record and that's about it.
 
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