FAA Adminstrator proposes raising ATP retirement to 65

mikea

mikea

Touchdown! Greaser!
Gone West
Joined
Feb 12, 2005
Messages
16,975
Location
Lake County, IL
Display Name
Display name:
iWin
WASHINGTON — Airline pilots will be allowed to fly until they turn 65 instead of the current mandatory retirement age of 60 under a proposal to be announced Tuesday by Federal Aviation Administrator Marion Blakey.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/politics/4510699.html
Click to expand...

Besides being opposed by the airlines, who don't mind shedding the highest salaries, later retirement always been opposed by younger ATPs who want to move up.

As always, any claim that safety is a consideration is boooooogus.
 
Speaking as one of those who are in the 60+ year-old range, I have no problem with keeping veteran, experienced pilots in the cockpit.

But as it is, there are only a very small handful of airlines I'll even consider flying on and that is due to their high PIC hours requirements just for filling out an application.

I'll walk before I ever fly American Eagle.

-JD
 
I'm of that vintage and am happy to see the option made available. As you know, several of these folks have worked many years and have seen their retirement plans change dramatically. Couple friends are very close. Each would rather retire, but may not if the option is open. They would otherwise be forced to start somewhere else for financial reasons.

Happy to see they have choices (if this passes). Of course, many folks have already lost their medical at this age and can't continue anyway. Guy down the street is in that situation at 57 (AA El Capitan that is grounded). Occasionally flies right seat with me to get some flight time.

Best,

Dave
 
If foreign pilots can do it, why can't we?:blueplane:
 
mikea said:
Besides being opposed by the airlines, who don't mind shedding the highest salaries, later retirement always been opposed by younger ATPs who want to move up.
Click to expand...

Just a minor nit, Mike. It is part 121 folks that are required to retire at 60 now whether or not they are Captains. Not ATP's in general.
 
Last edited:
CowboyPilot said:
But as it is, there are only a very small handful of airlines I'll even consider flying on and that is due to their high PIC hours requirements just for filling out an application.

-JD
Click to expand...

Out of curiosity, how do you suppose those high PIC types got those hours?
 
I don't know why people want to be lugging thier suitcase behind them at 60 anwyays. I guess these pilots who want to up the age to 65 have lived beyond thier means and have to make up for it now.
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I guess these pilots who want to up the age to 65 have lived beyond thier means and have to make up for it now.
Click to expand...

It's more like their companies lived beyond their means. Over the last five years most of the older airlines have filed bankrupcy, whacked pilot's salaries by a third or more, and thrown out their pension plans. The Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp will give them about 25 cents on the dollar when they retire. It wasn't the individual pilot's financial planning that was at fault here.

Regards,
Joe
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I don't know why people want to be lugging thier suitcase behind them at 60 anwyays. I guess these pilots who want to up the age to 65 have lived beyond thier means and have to make up for it now.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, Brook, it isn't that cut and dried. True, there are those that have the Captain's houses and toys. And 3 ex wives. And on and on.

But, there are also those who got started late in life, went through three bankruptcies and 4 different airlines, and had their retirement plans yanked out from under them by unscrupulous managements. They may not have the retirement saving opportunities that others have had.

In my case, there is no incentive to stay past 60. The defined benefit plan is gone, so when my defined contribution plan balance reaches critical mass, I am outta here, 60 or not. :yes:
 
Greg Bockelman said:
...and had their retirement plans yanked out from under them by unscrupulous managements.
Click to expand...
Like the Delta executives who received pension plans for so little time invested? They left with their golden parachute while the employees who stuck around are being screwed.
 
65 is the new 55.

Seriously, fitness, nutrition and health care have all changed the formula for aging. There was a time when 70 meant someone was a geezer. Even my father, who is absolutely NOT fit at 72, is hardly a geezer. I have absolutely no problem with moving the age back. Now, the young'uns will be a bit upset, and I can completely understand. Still, that's life in the fastlane. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

I'm with JD. I'll roll the dice with a 64yr old American pilot instead of with a 23yr old American Eagle pilot any day of the week.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Unfortunately, Brook, it isn't that cut and dried. True, there are those that have the Captain's houses and toys. And 3 ex wives. And on and on.

But, there are also those who got started late in life, went through three bankruptcies and 4 different airlines, and had their retirement plans yanked out from under them by unscrupulous managements. They may not have the retirement saving opportunities that others have had.

In my case, there is no incentive to stay past 60. The defined benefit plan is gone, so when my defined contribution plan balance reaches critical mass, I am outta here, 60 or not. :yes:
Click to expand...

My next door NWA pilot neighbor commented today that he doesn't think this change would affect him. He's so fed up with the industry that he want's to quit as soon as he can afford to and if he isn't there by 60 (he's 54 now) he said he'd quit anyway.
 
doesnt bother this young'un...I say if they are fit, let em work.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Out of curiosity, how do you suppose those high PIC types got those hours?
Click to expand...

Good friend of mine who is a very senior captain with SWA started flying with them after he passed 8000 hours driving KC-135's and KC-10's in all kinds of weather. Another senior captain with AA who lives a couple of taxiways over had accumulated over 10,000 hours driving P3's all over the earth and in all kinds of weather.

Another SWA pilot neighbor who's been flying with them for over fifteen years had over 4000 hours in C-130s.

There's a SWA pilot who lives at Hidden Ridge, another private airpark up by one of the big lakes in the northern Dallas area, who only had a wimpy 1400 hours in F14s before he got a job flying for the FAA doing flight safety and ILS checks--picked up several thousand hours in a Sabreliner pretty quick.

I know of four different captains who started flying freight and kept working their way up until they were flying for UPS or FedEx, kept accumulating time and then got on with the majors.

But it's hard today to tell who gives a damn LESS about proficiency, experience and ability--the FAA, the airline executives or Wall Street.

That's why I'll walk or flat out cancel a meeting before I take American Eagle IN PARTICULAR with the other regionals not far behind. It's also why I own a very comfortable, capable cross-country aircraft and will be soon building an even more comfortable, faster, capable cross-country aircraft.

Precisely so I never have to deal with the stinking airlines again.

Regards.

-JD
 
Last edited by a moderator:
CowboyPilot said:
Precisely so I never have to deal with the stinking airlines again.
Click to expand...

I despise airline travel these days too, but for different reasons. Mostly that on my last trip with the airlines, despite having a direct flight (no layover) and an 1100nm trip, I could have tied the door-to-door time in an Archer. The hassles have gotten utterly ridiculous.

That said, while I've had some crummy pilots on American Eagle, there have also been some really good ones. You really notice when you have the two on successive flights! Frankly though, I'll take United (including Express) over American any day of the week. (And Midwest over United if possible... Mmm, cookies. :D) I've just always had a better overall experience with United, though now that Air Wisconsin lost the Express contract, who knows. ("Air Whiskey" had a LOT of very senior captains, was supposedly one of the best regionals to work for.)
 
flyingcheesehead said:
I despise airline travel these days too, but for different reasons. Mostly that on my last trip with the airlines, despite having a direct flight (no layover) and an 1100nm trip, I could have tied the door-to-door time in an Archer. The hassles have gotten utterly ridiculous.

That said, while I've had some crummy pilots on American Eagle, there have also been some really good ones. You really notice when you have the two on successive flights! Frankly though, I'll take United (including Express) over American any day of the week. (And Midwest over United if possible... Mmm, cookies. :D) I've just always had a better overall experience with United, though now that Air Wisconsin lost the Express contract, who knows. ("Air Whiskey" had a LOT of very senior captains, was supposedly one of the best regionals to work for.)
Click to expand...

hmm i thought i had always heard they were one of the worst. at least to start out with, lousy lousy lousy pay, even on the regional scale.
 
CowboyPilot said:
Good friend of mine who is a very senior captain with SWA started flying with them after he passed 8000 hours driving KC-135's and KC-10's in all kinds of weather. Another senior captain with AA who lives a couple of taxiways over had accumulated over 10,000 hours driving P3's all over the earth and in all kinds of weather.
Click to expand...

Well, we can't all get military experience.

I know of four different captains who started flying freight and kept working their way up until they were flying for UPS or FedEx, kept accumulating time and then got on with the majors.
Click to expand...

Bet they are wishing they were still at UPS or FedEx.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, we can't all get military experience.



Bet they are wishing they were still at UPS or FedEx.
Click to expand...

Is it true that the experience requirements (FAA and part 121 operator policy) are the same for hauling people as they are for hauling packages? If so that probably stems from the origins of air transportation in airmail for the Post Office. Seems to me the standards ought to be higher for flying people around.
 
I wonder if they will raise the mandatory retirement age for ATC to 65 also.
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I don't know why people want to be lugging thier suitcase behind them at 60 anwyays. I guess these pilots who want to up the age to 65 have lived beyond thier means and have to make up for it now.
Click to expand...
Why stay with an airline and take a chance for the extra 5 years that they won't just gut the retirement plan and leave you keeping a garden in the backyard because you want to eat instead of because you enjoy playing in dirt.
 
HPNFlyGirl said:
I don't know why people want to be lugging thier suitcase behind them at 60 anwyays. I guess these pilots who want to up the age to 65 have lived beyond thier means and have to make up for it now.
Click to expand...

Some I'm sure just don't want to retire..period. I talked to an old chief that I used to work for (15 years ago) the other day. He is STILL policing at the age of 66 (not a chief anymore, he did retire from that, but he's a working Lt in a small dept now). Why in the world he'd want to be chasing bad guys at 66 was beyond me. He told me his worse fear is that if he retires, he'd be dead in 6 months like many of his counterparts. Plus, it's all he knows how to do, and he likes it, so why quit?
 
I don't really see why a mandatory retirement age exists anyways. Perhaps more stringent medical requiremens, but mandatory retirement seems to violate age discrimination laws.

Just my unasked for .02.
 
lancefisher said:
Is it true that the experience requirements (FAA and part 121 operator policy) are the same for hauling people as they are for hauling packages?
Click to expand...

121 is 121, boxes or people. Each carrier has its own set of standards, but they can be changed based on supply and demand.
 
SkyHog said:
I don't really see why a mandatory retirement age exists anyways. Perhaps more stringent medical requiremens, but mandatory retirement seems to violate age discrimination laws.

Just my unasked for .02.
Click to expand...

The current age 60 requirement was put in place in 1959. It was a very political thing at the time. I forget all the details, but it was basically to get certian people out of the cockpits. 60 was an arbitrary number then just as it is now.

I heard somewhere that it will stagnate advancement by 1 and a half or two years at most, not the full 5. I don't know the accuracy of that statement. But not all pilots would choose to stay to 65. Without a Defined Benefit plan, there is no reason, at this time, to stay past 60 if one does not want to.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top