F-22 Pilot's Wrongful Death Suit Settled

I was all set to say our tax money wasn't being misused, and the Feres doctrine would prevent anyone from suing the government, etc...

But it is as bad as it looks.

Fairly disgusting that the USAF has yet to find a useful mission for this fancy expensive jet. Also fairly disgusting that so many pilots were reporting the same thing that took this one out and nothing substantial was ever done until after Nightline did a report on the issue.

And our tax money went for that fix as well. The second time we have had to pay extra money to Lockheed for safety issues related to this aircraft. :mad:

Link: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/lockh...or-plane-safer/story?id=16509407#.UCo39KOWGSo
 
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Rigged4Flight said:
Fairly disgusting that the USAF has yet to find a useful mission for this fancy expensive jet.
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That expectation is perfectly reasonable because all missions are in the public sector. No classified mission requirements exist. :goofy:
 
Reminds me of the movie Afterburn and the problems the F-16 had. In that case her 3.1 million was overturned by another court. They ruled that contractors have the same immunity as the govt. Since this was settled out of court I would think this woman will get to keep the money.
 
Rigged4Flight said:
I The second time we have had to pay extra money to Lockheed for safety issues related to this aircraft. :mad:
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Were those change orders related to a failure on the contractor's part (as in, "it didn't meet the design criteria") or were they related to a failure on the government's part (as in, "the government failed to specify appropriate design criteria")?

It does make a difference.
 
Bob Noel said:
That expectation is perfectly reasonable because all missions are in the public sector. No classified mission requirements exist. :goofy:
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Point taken. :D

wsuffa said:
Were those change orders related to a failure on the contractor's part (as in, "it didn't meet the design criteria") or were they related to a failure on the government's part (as in, "the government failed to specify appropriate design criteria")?

It does make a difference.
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The news story made it sound like they were both safety-related. Not sure if the safety issues were caused by a poor design on the part of the contractor or a poor specification on the part of the govt. :dunno:
 
The O2 system is causing the pilots to pass out. Sounds like a flawed system, not a govt specification.
 
I have a hard time faulting Lockheed for a malfunction in a complex jet like this. That the Air Force had so much trouble recognizing the shortcomings is damning. The jets and guys who fly them are rare, valuable, and expensive.

Mechanics have reported problems too, though I don't know how much stock to put in that. Law of unintended consequences for this one. Certainly not the first aircraft to turn on its' pilots.
 
When someone pays a crap load of cash the settlement is sealed . .. so you can assume the survivors will never be working a day in their life if they choose not to . . .
 
steingar said:
I have a hard time faulting Lockheed for a malfunction in a complex jet like this.
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I do. Oxygen systems have been in use by our military aircraft for over 50 years. There is no excuse for them not fix this problem immediately.
 
JB1842 said:
I do. Oxygen systems have been in use by our military aircraft for over 50 years. There is no excuse for them not fix this problem immediately.
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I disagree. The F22 is far more complex than any other aircraft, a new generation of fighters. Complex technology makes for unforeseen difficulties. The trick is recognizing those difficulties before they kill anyone,w which the Air Force failed to do.
 
Velocity173 said:
The O2 system is causing the pilots to pass out. Sounds like a flawed system, not a govt specification.
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Get up to speed, it's not O2 system. The tongue-waggers blamed O2 because of hypoxia-like symptoms. But it turned out a valve regulating the chest wrap of the pressure suit. Case closed.
 
...and what of the Hypoxi like symptoms reported by maintenance crews, on the ground?
 
zaitcev said:
Get up to speed, it's not O2 system. The tongue-waggers blamed O2 because of hypoxia-like symptoms. But it turned out a valve regulating the chest wrap of the pressure suit. Case closed.
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You get up to speed. Use your WIKI skills and scroll down. You'll see the case this thread is about was contributed to the OBOGS. That's why she was awarded the settlement. Also when I say O2 system that means anything supplying O2 to the brain. If it's part of a pressure suit, well that's part of the system. If the system isn't supplying O2, well then the pilots will suffer from Hypoxia symptoms. Case closed.
 
steingar said:
I disagree. The F22 is far more complex than any other aircraft, a new generation of fighters. Complex technology makes for unforeseen difficulties. The trick is recognizing those difficulties before they kill anyone,w which the Air Force failed to do.
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Just because the aircraft is complex technology, it doesn't mean every part of it is. How complex do you think the tires are? my point is, if they can't fix technology that has been around for decades, at a cost of $79 billion dollars, then it is their fault.
 
JB1842 said:
Just because the aircraft is complex technology, it doesn't mean every part of it is. How complex do you think the tires are? my point is, if they can't fix technology that has been around for decades, at a cost of $79 billion dollars, then it is their fault.
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As I understand it uses oxygen generation technology not a bottled O2 supply
 
It's still not new technology. They probably passed off this design feature to the new kid who graduated engineering school with a C+. It came down to faulty engineering, which is why the blame is all on Lockhead.
 
Jaybird180 said:
As I understand it uses oxygen generation technology not a bottled O2 supply
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Correct. Most fighters today use it as well. LOX (O2) is for emergencies such as this case when the OBOGS malfunctions. Detection of hypoxia is the key.
 
it is quite normal for any advanced fighter design to go through some teething. Sometimes new advanced systems don't play well with older established ones. Sometimes they fight. My point is you can expect some issues putting together a machine this complex. The law of unintended consequences.

Like I said, the point is to detect these things and fix them before they kill someone. The Air Force fell down on the job on that one.
 
steingar said:
Like I said, the point is to detect these things and fix them before they kill someone.
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Very lofty goal, unfortunately things do happen and not everything can be found/predicted before a death happens. It is like saying that Apollo 1 capsule should have been fixed before it killed 3 astronauts or that Challenger should not have blown up, etc. If we are so afraid of making errors - better cease all activities when slightest risk is involved.
 
Henning said:
We've been using the same technology in diving for decades with no such results.
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The environment and engineering challenges in deepwater are quite different than high altitude, as are the power plants, materials involved, and stuff like that. Moreover, rebreathers fail on a regular basis, which is why their users have to be very cognizant of hypoxia and it's symptoms.
 
steingar said:
The environment and engineering challenges in deepwater are quite different than high altitude, as are the power plants, materials involved, and stuff like that. Moreover, rebreathers fail on a regular basis, which is why their users have to be very cognizant of hypoxia and it's symptoms.
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Not talking about rebreathers, they have been around for over a century. I'm talking about oxygen generators in the shop that strip nitrogen off the air resulting in O2 and N2 flows, the O2 which we put in our dive cylinders. The power supply is electricity.
 
Henning said:
Not talking about rebreathers, they have been around for over a century. I'm talking about oxygen generators in the shop that strip nitrogen off the air resulting in O2 and N2 flows, the O2 which we put in our dive cylinders. The power supply is electricity.
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You mean like the ones that failed on the Space Station, nearly forcing an evacuation?
 
IIRC both OBIGGS and OBOGS use molecular sieve technology to separate both O2 and N2 as do other ground systems. It is a little more difficult challenge than other atmospheric systems when the air source, engine bleed air, can range from thirty times the Ram Air Pressure at 1.2 Mach on the Deck to 1 or 2 Atmospheres in the upper left hand corner of the envelope and from -65 to 1100 degrees F. Same basic technology in the F-22 as in many other tactical fighters.

If anyone is interested in learning more see http://www51.honeywell.com/aero/com..._Brochures-documents/Life_Support_Systems.pdf

And as to a C+ Engineering student designing it, that reminds me of what they call the lowest ranking graduate of a Medical School, "Doctor" just like the bottom man at West Point "Lieutenant" and the low ranker at an engineering school an Engineer. Each one starts under the supervision of more experienced individuals and either are good enough and advance in responsibility and capability or they "pursue other interests"

Cheers
 
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steingar said:
You mean like the ones that failed on the Space Station, nearly forcing an evacuation?
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No sir, different technology again as these require an input of air, not likely something you'd find on a space station unless there is a great conspiracy to cover the fact that space is filled with air.
 
JB1842 said:
It's still not new technology. They probably passed off this design feature to the new kid who graduated engineering school with a C+. It came down to faulty engineering, which is why the blame is all on Lockhead.
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I thought the updated story was that the g-suit, which is Govt supplied equipment (i.e. supplied by another manufacturer) was the problem.
 
kyleb said:
I thought the updated story was that the g-suit, which is Govt supplied equipment (i.e. supplied by another manufacturer) was the problem.
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It's a government story, many of which are ass covering lies, so the truth is never going to be known, at least not by the public.
 
JB1842 said:
The g-suit still requires the oxygen system to work.
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Yes. But the latest story is "The 02 system is fine. We've been chasing the problem in the wrong place. The G suit is the causal factor."
 
kyleb said:
Yes. But the latest story is "The 02 system is fine. We've been chasing the problem in the wrong place. The G suit is the causal factor."
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That was just part of the problem. The O2 filter was also restricting airflow. This settlement the pilots wife received is completely separate from these cases. The environmental system over heated and shut off the OBOGS. The pilot fell unconscious and crashed before activating the emergency LOX.
 
Datadriver said:
The mission is air-superiority.
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Seems like that would have been a good mission during the Libyan no-fly zone enforcement. :dunno:

I know I'm oversimplifying it a lot. And when I back away from the keyboard, I realize that I'm just eating up the drama that the press has fed me. I know the Air Force can't just wait until the Next Big Threat is dropping bombs before they rush to the drawing boards and figure out a way to respond. Hence we have a very capable air weapons platform without an obvious and visible threat to defend against. Unless you count the Chinese.

So what I'm saying is... you're right.
 
wsuffa said:
Were those change orders related to a failure on the contractor's part (as in, "it didn't meet the design criteria") or were they related to a failure on the government's part (as in, "the government failed to specify appropriate design criteria")?

It does make a difference.
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Who has more knowledge about what is needed ?
 
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