F-15 Air to Air

X3 Skier

X3 Skier

Final Approach
PoA Supporter
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GDK & SBS
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Geezer
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GDK Greene County
Probably been around but I think it's worthwhile bringing it around again.

http://player.vimeo.com/video/40935850

I worked on the early F-15's over 35 years ago and they are still a helluva machine. Even outlasted the Turkey. Still great bar arguments who really won Aimval/Aceval that had the F-14 v F-15 back in the 70's.

Cheers
 
That is a cool vid. Shoguns! I used to "mix it up" with those guys flying the rental C-152s on Kadena. :D Just an awesome place to fly around.
 

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That is so friggin awesome. I would give up a part of my body to get to fly in something like that.

Couldn't help but notice the co crew chief as a SRA (Senior Airman)

Rick, what kind of speed does the 15 have over the fence?
 
So is slamming the throttles like that OK on a jet? I wouldn't treat my (piston) engine that way.
 
Just looked up rental rates at Kadena Aero Club. $129 per hr on a C-172. Was only $65 back in 98. I bet their club fees have skyrocketed as well. No way I could afford that on an enlisted paycheck today. :(
 
tmyers said:
That is so friggin awesome. I would give up a part of my body to get to fly in something like that.

Couldn't help but notice the co crew chief as a SRA (Senior Airman)

Rick, what kind of speed does the 15 have over the fence?
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Usually around 150 Kts.

Cheers
 
dans2992 said:
So is slamming the throttles like that OK on a jet? I wouldn't treat my (piston) engine that way.
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The early PWA F100 engines were too sensitive to rapid throttle movements and we stalled a slew of them and melted more than a few. After a ton of work and the threat of the GE F110 engine (The Great Engine War), it was fixed and is very reliable. Pilots now fly the airplane and not the engine. They can do whatever it takes to do what they need.

Cheers
 
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tmyers said:
They look like they are moving much slower. Very graceful
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If you watch the aerobraking with the speed board out and the nose way in the air, you would see a lot of energy being disapated. :wink2:

Cheers
 
At the 730 mark does he cut the throttle on right engine only to help spiral it like? If so that's badass I didn't know you could do that
 
Criitter7 said:
At the 730 mark does he cut the throttle on right engine only to help spiral it like? If so that's badass I didn't know you could do that
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Some Eagle guys will split the throttles like that. I've heard of it being done, never seen it in person, but probably a good hack so to speak.

Modern fighter turbofans really don't require a lot of care and special treatment. You can mow the throttles on my aircraft from idle to max blower and back again all day long if you wanted to. Probably not especially good for the motor over a long period of time, and no reason to do so, but unless there is something wrong with the fuel control or you got FOD, it shouldn't stall or hiccup in any way. I'm guessing the Eagle and Viper are similar with their current motors. They are intentionally over-engineered (and produce less thrust than they theoretically could, ie burn less "hot") to take the kind of abuse that combat aircraft require.
 
35 AoA said:
They are intentionally over-engineered (and produce less thrust than they theoretically could, ie burn less "hot") to take the kind of abuse that combat aircraft require.
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Depends on what you want, thrust or durability. You can get a lot more smash but you would overhaul it after every flight. That's the Russian approach, get more smash and just trash the engine after 500 hours or so. Of course they had nowhere near the materials and design capabilities of the West.

The F100, F110, F404 and F414 all balance it out to get a life that can supported. We had a couple of sayings, "That which goes fast, will not last." And "That which runs hot will quickly rot.":yes:

Cheers
 
I helped break up the beginnings of a drunken brawl between an Eagle driver who had to punch from the loss of an F100 hot and heavy, who broke his back and pelvis doing so, and a former P&W F100 engineer, at a company Christmas party once. Heh.

I'm guessing the former P&W engineer would have gone down first, but we weren't going to let them find out. We never heard who said what to start it, but they both had egos that got bigger under the influence of alcohol... and there was a lot flowing that night... at the open bar. ;)


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denverpilot said:
I helped break up the beginnings of a drunken brawl between an Eagle driver who had to punch from the loss of an F100 hot and heavy, who broke his back and pelvis doing so, and a former P&W F100 engineer, at a company Christmas party once. Heh.

I'm guessing the former P&W engineer would have gone down first, but we weren't going to let them find out. We never heard who said what to start it, but they both had egos that got bigger under the influence of alcohol... and there was a lot flowing that night... at the open bar. ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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Nothing compared to the outbursts from Gen Bob Dixon, TAC/CC and any high level PWA person within his eyesight, up to and including the PWA President. :hairraise:

Of course, Gen Dixon was an all purpose hell raiser on the subject of sh*** design, which I unfortunately had to accept in a minor manner on one occasion but later was recognized by him as fixing it. I preferred the latter to the former. :wink2:

Cheers
 
That's my old Squadron!!!!! I was an EWO in the 67th at Kadena during the conversion from F-4 Weasels to F-15s! That was just after the world was without form and void.
 
dans2992 said:
So is slamming the throttles like that OK on a jet? I wouldn't treat my (piston) engine that way.
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The J-79 in the F-4 didn't mind rough treatment. The F-111's TF-30 turbofans hated having their throttles jerked around like that.

That's how Mavrick killed Goose, jerking around the throttles.
 
I remember touring Grand Forks AFB in high school back around '73 or so when the F15 "Streak Eagle" was going for the time-to-climb record in the cold, thick winter air of ND. It was pretty cool. They had puttied all the gun ports to minimize drag.
 
LDJones said:
I remember touring Grand Forks AFB in high school back around '73 or so when the F15 "Streak Eagle" was going for the time-to-climb record in the cold, thick winter air of ND. It was pretty cool. They had puttied all the gun ports to minimize drag.
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That operation was a lot of fun. We tweaked the engines for absolute max performance and it was basically max blower all the way to the top.

Cheers
 
JimNtexas said:
The J-79 in the F-4 didn't mind rough treatment. The F-111's TF-30 turbofans hated having their throttles jerked around like that.

That's how Mavrick killed Goose, jerking around the throttles.
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The film had the cause as hitting the "jet wash" of the aggressor.

But you are right, the TF30 was very temperamental. When I was assigned to the program office in '66, I was told the first flight of the F-111 had dual engine stalls at throttle advance. The test pilots, knowing there were all kinds of dignitaries watching, retarded the throttles, inched them up again and took off. Things were different then.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
That operation was a lot of fun. We tweaked the engines for absolute max performance and it was basically max blower all the way to the top.



Cheers
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The AF PR videos of that are on YouTube complete with fancy paper "graphics". Can't find 'em right at the moment, though.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Yet reminded me about this by Ed Rasimus:

We used to fly DACM at Holloman between the F-15s and AT-38s. Clearly a flight capability mismatch. The Eagles had radar, GCI and two UHF receivers so that they could monitor inter-flight comm of the Talons.

The significant difference was experience. The typical AT-38 IP had more than a 1000 hours of tactical fighter time and was flying 10 sorties a week. The Eagle drivers were averaging under 300 hours since UPT and flew roughly 3-4 sorties/week. Additionally, the 49th TFW Wing CC had directed that the Eagles operate with continual "visual, radar and radio" support, effectively restricting them to a form of "fighting wing."

I recall a 2-v-2 that I led with Mike Scott (son of **** Gen. Winfield Scott) against a pair of Eagles led by the Western States demo pilot. We flew six engagements, shot up two full rolls of 16MM film of F-15 planforms, and the super-jets never got a shot on us. We operated with splits as much as 15K feet in altitude and often had 180 degrees of heading difference, but no one could deny that we were always in mutual support. And, every engagement ended in a tactical formation separation -- line abreast, 6-9K feet lateral and each other in sight.

It was a great day for the underdogs. Of course, I had 4000 hours of fighter time and Mike had 2500. The Eagles never had a chance -- unless the ROE were changed to let them SLAM us at 25 miles prior to the merge.
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35 AoA said:
Modern fighter turbofans really don't require a lot of care and special treatment. You can mow the throttles on my aircraft from idle to max blower and back again all day long if you wanted to. Probably not especially good for the motor over a long period of time, and no reason to do so, but unless there is something wrong with the fuel control or you got FOD, it shouldn't stall or hiccup in any way. I'm guessing the Eagle and Viper are similar with their current motors. They are intentionally over-engineered (and produce less thrust than they theoretically could, ie burn less "hot") to take the kind of abuse that combat aircraft require.
Click to expand...

How long does it take for your F404 to spool up from idle to mil power?
I realize that it's a modern engine and you can shove the throttles forward as fast as you can, but you won't actually get the power any faster...

In that video it seems like he's advancing the power much faster than you would in reality, seems like the video may actually be accelerated at that point. What do you think?
 
MachFly said:
How long does it take for your F404 to spool up from idle to mil power?
I realize that it's a modern engine and you can shove the throttles forward as fast as you can, but you won't actually get the power any faster...

In that video it seems like he's advancing the power much faster than you would in reality, seems like the video may actually be accelerated at that point. What do you think?
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There is some spool time to go from idle to actually having the blowers stage, but it isn't much, especially compared to older motors like the J-79/TF-30/etc. You can move the throttles as fast as you want though.....doesn't mean the engine is going to immediately respond. It isn't a really huge engine, so I suppose less inertia or something. I do think on the takeoff shot, that was accelerated via editing, but I'd have to watch it again.
 
But you are right, the TF30 was very temperamental. When I was assigned to the program office in '66, I was told the first flight of the F-111 had dual engine stalls at throttle advance. The test pilots, knowing there were all kinds of dignitaries watching, retarded the throttles, inched them up again and took off. Things were different then.
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It's funny you mention that. In the F-4 my pilots always always just firewalled both throttles on takeoff.

I vividly recall my first F-111 takeoff. Instead of just jamming the throttles forward, the instructor pilot just eased the left forward to mil, and then introduced the afterburner slowly.

We're siting there on the runway, the airplane is shaking like crazy, and I'm thinking 'WTF'?

Repeat the process with the right engine, sit there for what seemed like an eternity, but was really about ten seconds. But still, and F-111 with both motors in afterburner and the brakes locked makes an impression on the newbie!

Then off we went in the second most fun airplane I've ever flown, after the J-3.
 
The F-15 is serving in the Israeli Air Force since 1979.

It performed flawlessly in many combat operations.


israeli-f15-eagle-aircraft-hd-wallpaper.jpg
 
JimNtexas said:
It's funny you mention that. In the F-4 my pilots always always just firewalled both throttles on takeoff.

I vividly recall my first F-111 takeoff. Instead of just jamming the throttles forward, the instructor pilot just eased the left forward to mil, and then introduced the afterburner slowly.

We're siting there on the runway, the airplane is shaking like crazy, and I'm thinking 'WTF'?

Repeat the process with the right engine, sit there for what seemed like an eternity, but was really about ten seconds. But still, and F-111 with both motors in afterburner and the brakes locked makes an impression on the newbie!

Then off we went in the second most fun airplane I've ever flown, after the J-3.
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The basic problem was when the AB lit off, the pulse traveled up the bypass duct, raised the back pressure on the fan and the fan stalled. In the J79 (or any non fan AB engine) there's no path to the compressor so the engine is much less susceptible to bad juju when plugging into blower. "Suitable manipulation" of the throttle in the F-111 and F-14 and the advent of FADEC makes this basically a non issue in today's jets.

Cheers
 
35 AoA said:
There is some spool time to go from idle to actually having the blowers stage, but it isn't much, especially compared to older motors like the J-79/TF-30/etc. You can move the throttles as fast as you want though.....doesn't mean the engine is going to immediately respond. It isn't a really huge engine, so I suppose less inertia or something. I do think on the takeoff shot, that was accelerated via editing, but I'd have to watch it again.
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Got you.
 
At risk of seeming like a fawning civilian, I have to say how incredibly cool it is that we have both active and former military jet folks participating here. I never got my act together early enough to have a chance at military aviation, but I can remember reading every issue of Code One Magazine in my community college library and being filled with awe, and then regret for having "matured" too late in life to realize that dream. The F-16 is still my favorite jet, no offense to the current F-18 driver participating in this thread!

Cool thread, and to current and former military, thanks for your service.
 
asechrest said:
The F-16 is still my favorite jet, no offense to the current F-18 driver participating in this thread!
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No worries, every time I am at Fallon or generally around F-16's, I still stare like a little kid....at least when I am seeing them take off. They are very impressive jets........not to mention that they are 100+ knots faster than we are by the time either of us get to the end of the runway; the acceleration they have is astounding. Most of my favorite jets are or have been AF owned and operated. I love my own, but I didn't ever sit around as a little kid and think "man I love the Hornet"......it isn't ugly, but it isn't pretty either IMHO
 
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The Eagle has an Electronic Engine Control(EEC). The Strike Eagle took it digital and has a Digital Electronic Engine Control (DEEC). Think of the throttle as a "vote for thrust" switch. It doesn't really matter how fast you move the throttle, the engine controller will schedule fuel and variable inlet guide vane angle to not cause a stall-stag.

The funny thing about Eagle design to me is that the designers we're too risk adverse to make an entirely electric flight control system, but they didn't have a problem with an electronic engine controller.
 
35 AoA said:
No worries, every time I am at Fallon or generally around F-16's, I still stare like a little kid....at least when I am seeing them take off. They are very impressive jets........not to mention that they are 100+ knots faster than we are by the time either of us get to the end of the runway; the acceleration they have is astounding. Most of my favorite jets are or have been AF owned and operated. I love my own, but I didn't ever sit around as a little kid and think "man I love the Hornet"......it isn't ugly, but it isn't pretty either IMHO
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Yeah, as aesthetics go, I really like the lines and the profile of the Viper. It's some cool mix of aggressive and elegant.

Neat article I found, about a Hornet pilot transitioning to Vipers: http://defence.pk/threads/f-16-vs-f-18-a-navy-test-pilots-perspective.169261/

This part speaks to your comment about acceleration:

In my opinion, the Viper's biggest strength is its brute force: it has lots of horsepower. The biggest kick in the pants-next to a catapult shot off an aircraft carrier-is the kick from stroking full afterburner in a General Electric-powered, bigmouth Viper on a cold winter morning. With a greater than 1.2:1 thrust-to-weight ratio at takeoff gross weight, it takes all of 1,200 feet to get airborne at 160 knots, and the jet can be supersonic just two miles later, if it's left in burner. The acceleration is unbelievable! If there weren't a 7G restriction on a fueled centerline tank, I would easily have 9G available to pull straight into the vertical and accelerate on the way up. Of course, I've done the "quick climb" to 15,000 feet, and after level-off, I still have 350 knots. The Viper can out-accelerate most anything in the air, including the Hornet.
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hook_dupin said:
The funny thing about Eagle design to me is that the designers we're too risk adverse to make an entirely electric flight control system, but they didn't have a problem with an electronic engine controller.
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Among other reasons, two engines, one flight control. :D

BTW, Mac Air didn't have vote on the engine since it was selected and managed by the USAF. There were two source selections, one for the airframe and a separate one for the engine, just like the F-22.

Cheers
 
We (F-15C) also transitioned to a DEEC when we got the PW-F100-220 engines. I was in the last squadron that flew EEC's in the -100 when I was teaching the F-15 course at Tyndall AFB. The -220's have more power, light faster and always light - much better with the DEEC.

For whoever was asking about over the fence speed: it depends on fuel weight. The slowest on-speed approach is 138 KIAS, Very heavyweight could be as fast as 175 KIAS.

These guys at Kadena are good buddies of mine. The Eagle is the easiest flying airplane I've ever been in. Once you get used to the speed, it's just an honest pilot's airplane. I L O V E that we don't have digital flight controls - we use that to our advantage all the time - especially when fighting F-16's. The 16 is a pretty airplane, they are beautiful when in my gun sights...
 
EvilEagle said:
I L O V E that we don't have digital flight controls - we use that to our advantage all the time - especially when fighting F-16's. The 16 is a pretty airplane, they are beautiful when in my gun sights...
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I once went to a F-15 flight controls class at Warner Robbins because we wanted some background for the F-15SA program. We looked at every lever and spring inside the mechanical brains. Talk about wanting to shoot myself in the mouth! I'm happy never knowing what's inside the mystical hydro-mechanical flight control boxes. That thing is a Rube Goldberg machine.
 
I have always been fascinated with military aircraft and my hat is off to the current and former pilots that participate here.

I worked as a sub contractor at Eglin AFB in 2003 2004. That is (was?) the home of the 33rd. I had access pretty much to all of the base as a SABER contractor. My first few months as soon as I got my men lined out I would high tail it to the end of runway 12. There is a road that runs around the end of the runway with a perfect view. I could set there for hours watching the Eagles.

I finally got in good enough with a sergeant to get a up close and personal look at one of them in a maintenance hangar. The 33rd had their own area and I did some work in their O club and in some of their offices. Got to meet a couple pilots. I really enjoyed talking to them.

At the time I was there they had two sims in a building that we did some remodel work. I tried everything I could to just get to set in one. One of the pilots I got to know a little said there was no way. Apparently McDonald- Douglass owned the sims and the AF rented them by the hour for weapons testing/training. We had to have an escort with us when we were in the sim building.

Kind of long winded and boring but just again wanted to say how much respect I have for all of the military and how much I envy the pilots (until the shooting starts). It was a great experience!!
 
EvilEagle said:
I L O V E that we don't have digital flight controls - we use that to our advantage all the time - especially when fighting F-16's. The 16 is a pretty airplane, they are beautiful when in my gun sights...
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:rofl: Awesome.

Can you elaborate a bit (for us civilians) about how you use it to your advantage?
 
asechrest said:
At risk of seeming like a fawning civilian, ...
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Not to worry, this November will be my 20 year mark as a fawning civilian myself.

And thanks taxpayers, for buying all that gas for us.

Go Fighting Cocks!
 
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