Extinguisher

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drmax

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drmax
I carry a 2.5 lb extinguisher mounted between seats of rv9a for possible external fire (which I have already encountered). Being this is a dry agent for all types of fires, I would not think of activating for an inside/inflight fire. What is the type extinguisher for this type issue? I could probable change out this bottle for the appropriate style if I knew what to get. I still wouldn't want anything larger than 2.5 lbs. thx for advice. Dm
 
"The FAA recommends and/or requires Halon fire extinguishers on aircraft. H3Rs Halon fire extinguishers are the extinguishers of choice in the aviation industry. They cause no mess or damage, and do not require taking a plane out of service for clean-up; a costly process for both the aircraft owner and insurance carrier. The heat-seeking quality of the Halon gas makes it a superior fire fighting agent."
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/h3rhalon.php
 
This is where I purchased an A344T Halon 1211 two months ago and I think 1.25 lbs is more than enough for a typical 4-place cabin volume. They have free shipping until Tue I believe. Quick shipping and received as advertised with bracket. Halon 1211 boiling point 26F, Halotron 80F. Halon 1211 weighs half as much and has the same rating 2B:C.

http://fireextinguisherdepot.com/fi...extinguishers-1/a344t-1-25-lb-halon-1211.html
 
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RV10flyer said:
This is where I purchased an A344T Halon 1211 two months ago and I think 1.25 lbs is more than enough for a typical 4-place cabin volume. They have free shipping until Tue I believe. Quick shipping and received as advertised with bracket. Halon 1211 boiling point 26F, Halotron 80F. Halon 1211 weighs half as much and has the same rating 2B:C.

http://fireextinguisherdepot.com/fi...extinguishers-1/a344t-1-25-lb-halon-1211.html
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Thx for that link. Pilotshop has same one for 107 free shipping. I'll kick this around. Dm
 
drmax said:
Being this is a dry agent for all types of fires, I would not think of activating for an inside/inflight fire.
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Better to burn than to have to clean up a mess?

It will be dusty for a little while until it settles, but I wouldn't hesitate for even 1/2 second...

(I've used them in practice and for real in non-aviation environments)
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Better to burn than to have to clean up a mess?

It will be dusty for a little while until it settles, but I wouldn't hesitate for even 1/2 second...

(I've used them in practice and for real in non-aviation environments)
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True. Just wouldnt want it to overcome me. I'm just looking for the preferred no corrosive product to start with. Hell I'd **** out a fire if it'd save me. But to release something outta a bottle under my own doing to further increase the risk is just stupid. Just want the right stuff off the getgo. (-:
 
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drmax said:
True. Just wouldnt want it to overcome me
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Hold your breath as long as you can and be prepared for a lot of coughing and bad visibility for a little while. But the stuff isn't going to really hurt you.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Hold your breath as long as you can and be prepared for a lot of coughing and bad visibility for a little while. But the stuff isn't going to really hurt you.
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I've been in computer rooms when the halon went off...little murky but still breathable. But plan on your voice dropping at least a half octave.

Do not under any circumstances use consumer A/B/C or combination inside the cabin.
 
First, forget Halotron -- it's a non-brominated agent. That means it takes many times the amount of agent to put out the fire, does so much more slowly, and leaves a much more toxic post-fire environment with really nasty concentrations of HF and HCl. Second, forget dry chemical -- screws up your eyes and lungs, and creates a lot of corrosion on everything the powder touches.

Halon 1211 isn't a bad choice, but it's primarily a streaming agent and doesn't work so well on three dimensional fires. It's also moderately toxic, which is why the bottle has a warning label giving the minimum room volume in which it may be used -- compare that to your cabin volume.

Most of the commercially available extinguishers recommended for in-flight cockpit use are a mix of Halons 1301 and 1211. You get the volume fire effectiveness of 1301 plus the steaming effectiveness of 1211, and by diluting the 1211 with the non-toxic 1301, you can discharge a lot more agent in the cockpit without killing yourself. Since it still has 1211 in the mix, you still have to abide by the minimum room volume restriction, but that will be a whole lot more agent for the same size cockpit.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Are you aware of any case where the use of a dry chemical for an in flight fire made things worse?
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Yes. The FAA Tech Center has plenty of research on point. Halon is well-proven to be more effective and less hazardous. The only time you want to use dry chem on an aircraft fire is from the outside.
 
I've had a dry agent extinguisher go off in a 172 cockpit. An overbearing backseat passenger weighing in excess of 300 pounds stepped on it while in cruise and bent the pin over so much that the handle got stuck in the open position. Dumped the whole thing. A year later, we were STILL vacuuming that crap out!
 
Anyone have recommendations for getting a small Halon extinguisher refilled on the west coast? Preferably near an airport..
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes. The FAA Tech Center has plenty of research on point. Halon is well-proven to be more effective and less hazardous. The only time you want to use dry chem on an aircraft fire is from the outside.
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You didn't answer the question. I'll repeat it.

Are you aware of any case where the use of a dry chemical for an in flight fire made things worse?

Yes they make a mess. Yes, they will destroy your avionics. Yes Halon would be better. But, are you telling me that it would be better to burn than to use whatever you happen to have available if all you have is dry chemical?
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
You didn't answer the question. I'll repeat it.

Are you aware of any case where the use of a dry chemical for an in flight fire made things worse?

Yes they make a mess. Yes, they will destroy your avionics. Yes Halon would be better. But, are you telling me that it would be better to burn than to use whatever you happen to have available if all you have is dry chemical?
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That's like asking whether you'd like to be put to death in the electric chair or the gas chamber -- I prefer not to do either. So, if all you have available is dry chem, yeah, I suppose that's better than burning to death, but it was a really bad decision to put a dry chem rather than Halon extinguisher in your airplane in the first place -- and that's the mistake I'm trying to encourage people to avoid. There's just no reason to ever put a dry chem extinguisher in the cockpit or cabin of an airplane as long as Halon is an available option, and a lot of reasons not to do so.

Sure, a dry chemical like Purple-K or ABC is just fine for a flight line fire bottle to be used by flight line personnel from the outside of the plane, especially for engine fires on start and the like. But dry chem has no place in an aircraft in flight.
 
I bet Ron, myself or anyone else would use a dry chemical before getting barbecued. The best thing to do is include checking the fire extinguisher during preflight for proper contents(halon 1211 or mix of 1211/1301, gage in the green and practice removing it and check for outlet blockage.
 
I am in the Halon Camp............... 100%.......

All others would suck...:yes:
 
I received a PM with the following questions on this subject:
Hello and thankyou for taking the time explaining. You mentioned a mix of a couple different products. Can you plz point me to the correct company/product so I can order and put this behind me? Thx again
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As far as I can tell, the only company producing Halon 1211/1301 blend fire extinguishers for cockpit use is H3R. Here are a few examples:
http://www.h3raviation.com/products-1211-1301-blend.htm
Their products are available from aviation suppliers like Aircraft Spruce.

See this paper and Appendix 4 of AC 20-42D for how to determine the maximum 1211 component mass based on your cabin volume. Note that the H3R literature does not give you the exact mix of 1211/1301, and they don't give the maximum so you can't tell from their web page what the minimum cabin volume for the three different size H1211/1301 units they make (the H1301 component being a non-issue). I'm checking on that and will report back when I find out.
 
Just spoke with H3R, and the minimum cabin volumes for the three models are:

A400: 110 cu ft
A600: 151 cu ft
A1200: 330 cu ft

You may be able find your cabin volume in your POH, but if not, for reference, a Cessna 210 is 140 cu ft, and a Cessna 421 is 217 cu ft, so for the average 4-seater, I'd say go with the A400 model.
 
Is there any reason we don't simply have N2 extinguishers? Not enough volume? Too much pressure require to fit necessary volume in the canister?
 
EdFred said:
Is there any reason we don't simply have N2 extinguishers? Not enough volume? Too much pressure require to fit necessary volume in the canister?
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To put out a cabin fire with nitrogen you have to depress the O2 level enough that you will also put out anyone who is not wearing an oxygen mask. This would be my last choice.

CO2 displaces O2 and also cools a lot since it goes from liquid to gas. You might get away with CO2. But that would be a distant third choice in my book.

Halon works at concentrations low enough that there is still enough O2 in the air to breathe. It breaks down at combustion temperatures and does something that I don't recall from nearly 40 years ago. It does work best, but it a fair chunk of change for something you probably will never use.

Dry chemical will be nasty, but not lethal. This is what I carry given that I probably will never have any reason to use it now that I no longer work in a refinery.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
CO2 displaces O2 and also cools a lot since it goes from liquid to gas. You might get away with CO2.
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Not hardly -- same situation as N2.

Dry chemical will be nasty, but not lethal. This is what I carry given that I probably will never have any reason to use it now that I no longer work in a refinery.
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Your lungs, your eyes, and your aircraft, so it's your choice, but it's contrary to pretty much every recommendation for the aircraft cockpit application. Check the research paper and AC I linked above for more on that.
 
I'm gonna check to see what's in our plane currently after reading this... thanks for all the info guys.
 
Rt a400 from Pilotshop. 158 shipped free every day. Mines on the way! Thank you all for the info. I'm glad this was hashed out despite any ruffled feathers. DM
 
drmax said:
Rt a400 from Pilotshop. 158 shipped free every day. Mines on the way! Thank you all for the info. I'm glad this was hashed out despite any ruffled feathers. DM
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Remember to weigh it every year. Best time is at annual and record the weight somewhere. At some point, much like all extinguishers, it loses quality of the propellant. I forget at what % of weight it is considered less effective. In the 10 years I've had mine, the weight has decreased but still more than 90% of original weight.
 
Did a lil search for threads on extinguishers, since I'm fixin to get me one, and found this one.

I read the AC Cap'n Ron supplied, found this intersting:


Since 1994. Halon 1211 has not been produced in the U.S. By 20 I 0, Halon 1211 will no longer be produced anywhere in the world. However, recycled Halon 1211 is available for new and existing fire extinguishers. Halocarbon clean agent extinguishers hydrocWorofluorocarbon HeFC Blend Band hydrofluorocarbons HFC-227ea, and HFC-236fa are now commercially available. These halocarbon hand fire extinguishers have been evaluated and found to be effective fire-fighting agents. If properly used., these agents are safe to human health.

So I reckon I'll be searching online to find me one of these. ​
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Note on hangar extinguishers: avoid ABC, and look for BC. Monoammonium phosphate is the ingredient in ABC extinguishers. When it contacts a hot surface, the powder melts and flows. It will flow into any seams and rivets and is extremely corrosive to aluminum. You might put out the fire, but total the aircraft anyway. BC extinguishers (sodium bicarb - baking soda), or Purple-K (brand name for potassium bicarb) remain as a powder and can be hosed off and are non-corrosive. Check in the hardware or auto supply store for an auto or marine BC extinguisher.

For in-cockpit, Halon is the way to go.
 
eman1200 said:
Did a lil search for threads on extinguishers, since I'm fixin to get me one, and found this one.

I read the AC Cap'n Ron supplied, found this intersting:


Since 1994. Halon 1211 has not been produced in the U.S. By 20 I 0, Halon 1211 will no longer be produced anywhere in the world. However, recycled Halon 1211 is available for new and existing fire extinguishers. Halocarbon clean agent extinguishers hydrocWorofluorocarbon HeFC Blend Band hydrofluorocarbons HFC-227ea, and HFC-236fa are now commercially available. These halocarbon hand fire extinguishers have been evaluated and found to be effective fire-fighting agents. If properly used., these agents are safe to human health.

So I reckon I'll be searching online to find me one of these. ​

​
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The HFC and HCFC agents have been evaluated (I was involved in that for over five years), and they aren't nearly as effective as brominated Halons (1211/1301). Furthermore, the post-fire environment is much more toxic, with much higher concentrations of halogenated acids (mostly HF, but also HCl), and those are really lethal. Since there are plenty of 1211/1301 extinguishers available for aviation use, and plenty of recycled 1211/1301 available to recharge them as needed, there is really no smart choice for a light plane cabin extinguisher other than 1211/1301. Stay away from anything else.
 
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Matthew said:
Note on hangar extinguishers: avoid ABC, and look for BC. Monoammonium phosphate is the ingredient in ABC extinguishers. When it contacts a hot surface, the powder melts and flows. It will flow into any seams and rivets and is extremely corrosive to aluminum. You might put out the fire, but total the aircraft anyway. BC extinguishers (sodium bicarb - baking soda), or Purple-K (brand name for potassium bicarb) remain as a powder and can be hosed off and are non-corrosive. Check in the hardware or auto supply store for an auto or marine BC extinguisher.
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Great for hangar or flightline use, but not in the cockpit. Otherwise...
For in-cockpit, Halon is the way to go.
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Yes, plenty of recycled halon for small hand extinguishers. Most of the big data center halon flood systems have been removed. They were disappearing even before the Montreal restrictions. IBM did a study and realized it was better continuity of operations and even cost to throw water specifically on what was burning (which was likely trashed anyhow if it was on fire) then to flood the entire data center with Halon. Regular sprinkler systems were certainly cheaper. The large data center I ran at Rutgers used CO2.

When I was based at a military airfield (and on the lawn when we had a VIP bearing helicopter land there by the HQ building), we had a big assed wheeled CO2 extinguisher.

At one point (back in the Reagan era), they decided we needed training with halon hand extinguisher, so they got us a bunch of big 17 pounders and set pan fires out behind our building (394 for CapnRon who was also based there) and let us put fires out with it. Halon was pretty impressive stuff.

The other fun day at APG was when I was out at the airport and they were testing the new foam generator system they installed in the big hangar there. It only takes a few seconds to get four or five feat of foam all over the hangar. (Empty otherwise at the time). Someone got the great idea of driving a pickup truck through it but that didn't work well. They then fired up one of the King Airs and used the prop blast to blow out most of the stuff out of the hangar.

I also trained with tHe BWI CFR crews. They use a lot of AFFF. It's about the easiest thing to get in quantity after just plain water.
 
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