Extending the downwind

[jstro]

If ATC asks you to extend the downwind for traffic on final, do you as a rule try to widen the downwind to make sure you're out of the way?

I'm asking in relation to one time I was flying into Hyannis and ATC asked me to extend the DW for traffic on final. I must have been 3-4 miles away from the airport when the tower finally cleared me to turn base. All the time I was looking for the traffic on final and I never saw it! I seem to remember it was a right pattern so I probably didn't have the best view. While waiting that long 3-4 minutes I was concerned about my ground track and inadvertently getting to close to the landing traffic.

Cordially,
jstro

 

[dmccormack]

"Extend the/your downwind" means you keep tracking parallel to the landing runway.

If you don't spot the traffic, don't panic. Be alert, but as you turn ask the tower where traffic is.

He/she is looking for airplanes against the sky. You're looking for them againts a busy backdrop of ground (typically).

Tower will spot it first.

 

[jstro]

"Extend the/your downwind" means you keep tracking parallel to the landing runway.

If you don't spot the traffic, don't panic. Be alert, but as you turn ask the tower where traffic is.

He/she is looking for airplanes against the sky. You're looking for them againts a busy backdrop of ground (typically).

Tower will spot it first.

Okay, track parallel.

About turning base in this situation, this brings up another concern. At my home airport there was an accident years ago where the student pilot in the pattern was doing everything by the book (at least it seems that way from the NTSB report), and when on extended downwind the tower cleared her to turn base, she turned in front of the traffic on final and there was a MAC. Presumably she never saw the traffic on final and trusted the ATC to call her base. It was a hazy day as I recall. The tower didn't have radar at the time. What's sobering to me is if I was that student pilot, I probably would have done the same thing. Now with the benefit of hindsight I'm thinking about what should have been done different. If you were that pilot on extended downwind and didn't see the traffic on final, would you say "unable" or do something different until you had some kind of confirmation that you were in the clear?

Thanks Dan, you said to ask the tower where the traffic was, presumably before you start the base turn?

 

[dmccormack]

Okay, track parallel.

About turning base in this situation, this brings up another concern. At my home airport there was an accident years ago where the student pilot in the pattern was doing everything by the book (at least it seems that way from the NTSB report), and when on extended downwind the tower cleared her to turn base, she turned in front of the traffic on final and there was a MAC. Presumably she never saw the traffic on final and trusted the ATC to call her base. It was a hazy day as I recall. The tower didn't have radar at the time. What's sobering to me is if I was that student pilot, I probably would have done the same thing. Now with the benefit of hindsight I'm thinking about what should have been done different. If you were that pilot on extended downwind and didn't see the traffic on final, would you say "unable" or do something different until you had some kind of confirmation that you were in the clear?

When I don't spot the traffic I always say, "[Call sign], Still doesn't have that traffic..."

And I'll always hear, "[type] is on 2 mile final for [runway]."

If I don't ever see the traffic, (haze, bad hair day, whatever) I'll ask again until the exasperated controller tells me, "He's in hangar 36 wiping off some bugs..."

But that hasn't happened yet.

 

[jstro]

When I don't spot the traffic I always say, "[Call sign], Still doesn't have that traffic..."

And I'll always hear, "[type] is on 2 mile final for [runway]."

If I don't ever see the traffic, (haze, bad hair day, whatever) I'll ask again until the exasperated controller tells me, "He's in hangar 36 wiping off some bugs..."

But that hasn't happened yet.

LOL! Thanks, that makes me feel better about pestering ATC until I'm comfortable.

 

[Matthew]

Okay, track parallel.

About turning base in this situation, this brings up another concern. At my home airport there was an accident years ago where the student pilot in the pattern was doing everything by the book (at least it seems that way from the NTSB report), and when on extended downwind the tower cleared her to turn base, she turned in front of the traffic on final and there was a MAC. Presumably she never saw the traffic on final and trusted the ATC to call her base. It was a hazy day as I recall. The tower didn't have radar at the time. What's sobering to me is if I was that student pilot, I probably would have done the same thing. Now with the benefit of hindsight I'm thinking about what should have been done different. If you were that pilot on extended downwind and didn't see the traffic on final, would you say "unable" or do something different until you had some kind of confirmation that you were in the clear?

Thanks Dan, you said to ask the tower where the traffic was, presumably before you start the base turn?

Happens to me a fair amount. I don't like to turn to base unless I can see the landing traffic for myself. When tower calls my base, then I have a good idea of where to look because it's probably just crossed my wingtip. I have a heck of a time with the small jets, though, they move fast enough that by the time I try to check at my wingtip, they're already closing in on the numbers. If I can't see the landing aircraft before I start my turn, I just tell tower "negative traffic" or similar to let the controller know that I still haven't seen the other guy. My controllers are pretty good about helping me find him.

edit:

I noticed this after I posted:
>
If I don't ever see the traffic, (haze, bad hair day, whatever) I'll ask again until the exasperated controller tells me, "He's in hangar 36 wiping off some bugs..."
<

I HAVE had the tower tell me "He's turning off the runway at taxiway xxx".

 

[SCCutler]

Am I the only one who notices how remarkably difficult it can be to spot traffic ahead of you, especially on final?

---

In the non-radar environment, I won't turn base unless I am certain that the traffic ahead of me is safely past; in sight works, or confirmed in-sight by the tower ("over the numbers") is OK.

 

[dmccormack]

Am I the only one who notices how remarkably difficult it can be to spot traffic ahead of you, especially on final?

Yes, and I think it's due to the cluttered background. When you're behind you're above, so looking for traffic ahead is a Where's Waldo? exercise.

 

[Matthew]

Yes, and I think it's due to the cluttered background. When you're behind you're above, so looking for traffic ahead is a Where's Waldo? exercise.

I think the other problem is with the relative motion. It's easier for me to see the traffic that's on final when I'm still on downwind because their relative motion is pretty much left-to-right or right-to-left. I have a better chance of looking at the background, then noticing something moving. Then all I have to do is mentally separate a moving airplane or helicopter from cars and trucks (easier said than done).

When we're both on final, the other aircraft isn't changing position or size, it's just something that's below the horizon that can get lost in the clutter.

 

[poadeleted20]

About turning base in this situation, this brings up another concern. At my home airport there was an accident years ago where the student pilot in the pattern was doing everything by the book (at least it seems that way from the NTSB report), and when on extended downwind the tower cleared her to turn base, she turned in front of the traffic on final and there was a MAC. Presumably she never saw the traffic on final and trusted the ATC to call her base.

The injured parties collected a bunch for this one. The controller screwed up bigtime, and the private ATC firm operating the tower had to pay up. While the Student Pilot could have done a number of things to prevent this, remember that she was only a Student Pilot and generally speaking, you have to trust controllers to do their jobs properly. Trust, but of course, verify as best you can.

 

[ActiveAir]

I always look opposite of my final course before I turn final when on base. I also make sure I see the traffic, or I let tower know (repeatedly if need be).

Tower once called my position wrong to another in the pattern, and for the sake of time, I corrected them on the radio.

Tower once asked me to turn an early base when I was approaching from the downwind side of the airport. I did, and shortly thereafter saw an a/c headed right for me who had cut his downwind leg departure towards the final approach path to the airport. Essentially, we were head-on. I dove to the right and we missed. Tower apologized as I was rolling out.

You can only rely on your own eyes, the rest is only somewhat helpful. I am never shy about communicating if I'm not sure about an instruction or can't see a target.

 

[Jack Spectre]

The trickiest situation for me is when I'm in the pattern and the tower tells me I'm "#2 for runway 28R behind a [airplane type]". I'm usually halfway to Iowa before admitting I can't see #1 and is he on the ground yet, I'd like to turn base. This is especially bad during winter and 99.9% of all airplanes are white.

 

[PilotAlan]

Remember in class D, the tower is only responsible for separating traffic on the runway. When you in the air, you're on your own.

 

[poadeleted20]

If you don't see your traffic, speak up. If tower can't guide your eyes to the traffic, they'll be happy to call your base. A pilot who tries to hide something like that only makes the controller's day more trying.

 

[Skip Miller]

This is especially bad during winter and 99.9% of all airplanes are white.

My problem is in the summer with the milk bottle haze we have here in the Northeast. In the winter with the clear and a million it is easier for me. IMHO a good pair of amber shades helps a lot....

-Skip

 

[Jack Spectre]

My problem is in the summer with the milk bottle haze we have here in the Northeast. In the winter with the clear and a million it is easier for me. IMHO a good pair of amber shades helps a lot....

-Skip

When it's really cold here in the winter, you can see forever. But when it warms up enough that you don't mind actually leaving your house, it gets hazy again. I suppose you have to pick your poison...

 

[jstro]

Much obliged to all who responded, it's been very helpful and I learned a few things. I am planning to float the question by my CFI when I see her again, but with the weather here and my limited availability to fly (mostly just weekends) that might be a while Crossing fingers for next weekend.

 

[bobmrg]

LOL! Thanks, that makes me feel better about pestering ATC until I'm comfortable.

Controllers are paid to be pestered.

Bob Gardner

 

[gismo]

Controllers are paid to be pestered.

Bob Gardner

And almost all the controllers I've worked with would rather be pestered than fill out the forms for a midair collision involving aircraft they were handling.

 

[dmccormack]

Controllers are paid to be pestered.

Bob Gardner

Excellent!

(Though I think we all tire of the long-winded pilot asking for "flight Following" who doesn't have a clue where he is, where he's going, or what he's flying ala what I heard yesterday in Harrisburg airspace:

Umm...ahhh...we're...ummmm.. a Cessna... headed to. We're at thirty five hundred....ummm..."

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Excellent!

(Though I think we all tire of the long-winded pilot asking for "flight Following" who doesn't have a clue where he is, where he's going, or what he's flying ala what I heard yesterday in Harrisburg airspace:

Umm...ahhh...we're...ummmm.. a Cessna... headed to. We're at thirty five hundred....ummm..."

Mayonnaise...

 

[RogerT]

If ATC asks you to extend the downwind for traffic on final, do you as a rule try to widen the downwind to make sure you're out of the way?

I'd be careful of widening out. I've had someone cut inside of me on
downwind (at a Class C) and I fly a pretty consistent 1/2 mild from the
runway on downwind. (They got scolded by the tower).

I find it easier to spot when the traffic on final passes abeam of my position
when I stay closer in. Generally a little prompt such as "Tower .. where's
the traffic I'm following?" will result in a response from the other aircraft.
(Don't address your transmission to the other aircraft .. only to the tower
if you're under their control.)

RT