explain ads-b

new182

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new182
I was doing some research on the ads-b and the Radenna skyradar.
The idea of real time weather on my Ipad has great appeal.
The site says (not an exact quote) that you have real time weather info including nexrad.
The pilots handbook for skyradar says that nexrad is not real time but instead shows where weather was, not where it is.
If this is correct, how can ads-b provide real time weather?
 
It can't.
.
.
.
Any datalinked weather - XM or ADS-B - is delayed, first by the process where the data from the various NEXRAD sites is combined and given a quick Quality Control check, and then by the process of sending it to XM or the FAA for uplink, and then finally in the time it takes for that data stream to reach your airplane. This delay can be 10 minutes to 30 or more.

The only real-time weather in a cockpit, ANY cockpit, is what you see out the window or what your own on-board weather radar or atmospheric sensors (i.e. strikefinder) give you.

All of that said, datalink weather is 1000 times better than guessing, or asking a flightwatch guy to tell you what the radar looks like. It's perfect for strategic decision making so that you can avoid a line of storms by 100 NM. It's no good for trying to manuever through or around systems.
 
IIRC NEXRAD is a loop of radar returns from the last few minutes. So although it might be very recent it's not up to the second.
 
Thanks Tim and Chris.
Then as I see it, this system is no better than the weather I get on my 496 from XM.
Why all the hype?
 
Then as I see it, this system is no better than the weather I get on my 496 from XM.
Why all the hype?
Because it's "free".

To paraphrase PJ O'Rourke on healthcare:
If you think onboard weather is expensive now, just wait until it's free.
 
Well, there's no monthly subscription fee.

Right now the price for data-link weather is still around a grand for the data link hardware (even if you look at the price difference between an XM equipped Garmin and a "plain" one). XM WX subscription adds around 600-700 a year.

Now, when the nationwide network of ADS-B stations is fully built, you'll be able to pick up the FIS-B signal (datalinked weather and other stuff) and you'll only pay for the hardware. Right now though there are big areas of the country without the ADS-B ground stations for uplink.
 
datalink weather is 1000 times better than <snip> asking a flightwatch guy to tell you what the radar looks like.

Tim, really? The 1000x - an exaggeration? (I have had really good luck with FW and atc describing storm position, size, intensity etc. And the times I flew with on board radar and asked, they were pretty good.)
 
Now, when the nationwide network of ADS-B stations is fully built, you'll be able to pick up the FIS-B signal (datalinked weather and other stuff) and you'll only pay for the hardware. Right now though there are big areas of the country without the ADS-B ground stations for uplink.

And that'll be a bargain, not.

And how long before someone complains that rich owners aren't paying their fair share for this free weather uplink?
 
And that'll be a bargain, not.

And how long before someone complains that rich owners aren't paying their fair share for this free weather uplink?
The cost is the same right now, and with ADS-B equippage becoming mandatory by 2020 if you want to fly in certain airspace, the prices may come down.

The actual hardware cost to build a UAT is 300 in parts. I know because I work on ADS-B test projects as a pilot and they've shown me the devices about the size of a pack of cigarettes. Now, a certified device will of course be more, but it SHOULD cost less than the 1000 bucks the XMWorx or other Data links cost today.
 
Tim, really? The 1000x - an exaggeration? (I have had really good luck with FW and atc describing storm position, size, intensity etc. And the times I flew with on board radar and asked, they were pretty good.)

In my opinion, yes. The ability to get the big picture in something you can easily interpret is much better compared to someone telling you about it.
 
Yeah, I am seriously bummed that I will have to fork out more money for the little plane than it really needs to have - right now it has just enough avionics to make it IFR certifiable and really actually useful as just a little VFR trainer.
Sheesh.
 
Because it's "free".

To paraphrase PJ O'Rourke on healthcare:
If you think onboard weather is expensive now, just wait until it's free.
Good comparison. Health Care is already "free" - when did you last hear about a hospital turning around a patient? ADS-B will be "free" in the same way, ie. you will pay for it indirectly.

When Tim first replied, I thought he said "I can't explain it". That seems to be the best thing to say about ADS-B. Nobody can explain what it is because nobody really knows what it's supposed to do.
 
I'll explain ADS-B in the morning when I'm not so tired. It's actually pretty cool, or it was before we ended up in this weird two-modes situation because the airlines here and the rest of the world wanted basic stuff.
 
The cost is the same right now, and with ADS-B equippage becoming mandatory by 2020 if you want to fly in certain airspace, the prices may come down.

The actual hardware cost to build a UAT is 300 in parts. I know because I work on ADS-B test projects as a pilot and they've shown me the devices about the size of a pack of cigarettes. Now, a certified device will of course be more, but it SHOULD cost less than the 1000 bucks the XMWorx or other Data links cost today.

Don't forget that the equippage requirement is for ADS-B out. ADS-B in is required for these "free" services.

The installed cost for the ADS-B in equipment SHOULD be less, but let's be realistic about what the costs will actually be.

And when considering the cost of ADS-B, don't forget that the cost of the navigation source. No VFR aircraft needs to have a GPS installed, but will after this ADS-B equippage mandate.
 
You have access to 'free' ADS-B wx info now...

Here's a short clip from the intro to Aviation Consumer's May, 2011 article on this topic:

"Portable ADS-B WX: Free Data with Limits
Can a portable device with ADS-B free you from the monthly fee for datalink weather? Yes, but not without a few sacrifices. WingX leads the pack.


[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"In the formative days of ADS-B, the FAA had a carrot-and-stick plan. You’d have to invest in equipment to comply with the FAA’s new traffic system. But you’d get free datalink weather in the cockpit as part of the bargain.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]​
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Unfortunately, that "bargain" requires a $10,000 Universal Access Transceiver (UAT) to transmit and receive your traffic data (called TIS-B) and receive the free weather (FIS-B). Cheaper solutions meet the ADS-B mandate, but without [/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]weather. That’s all stick and no carrot. [/FONT]​
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The free weather data is still out there, however, and it was only a matter of time before someone built a receiver to paint that data on a portable display. To be clear: None of these comply with the ADS-B mandate for traffic data. They just provide weather data similar to XM’s satellite-delivered weather.[/FONT]​
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
"[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All three systems we reviewed use the SkyRadar receiver built by Ravena LLC..."

In the business model where the bulk of a company's profit is made selling razor blades, the company can sell the razor almost at cost. It's surprising XM's receiver is priced in this fashion, given the subscription rates they charge.

Jack[/FONT]
 
I've also picked through the FARs on ADS-B, for airliners as part of my 9-5 job.

The FAA pumps out ADS-B status ppt files every week or so. I see a lot of relevant material on the subject and I'd post it, but the arrangement I have with my boss it that, I can supply a link to info that is already public and available on the www, but stuff folks provide to the company professionally needs to be protected IP.

I haven't gone through the UAT stuff in any detail, but I have noticed things that might affect me as a private pilot and hopefully soon an airplane owner.

One thing was the requirement for the barometric setting to be in the format. I'm not sure if that output is available on most GA altimeters.

You don't necessarily need ADS-B (you could conceivably fly in airspace that doesn't require a mode C transponder now), but I believe the FARs say that if you install ADS-B, you have to have it all.

ADS-B ATC Surveillance (1090 MHz, for Non-Radar Airspace) has been in use for a while (a few years) in Australia and in the Hudson Bay Region of Canada. That is, the early format is accepted as a substitute for radar surveillance to provide 3 & 5 mile separation.

In 2012, Nav Canada is probably going to stop publishing some fixed routes, I believe setups for transatlantic crossing and just require ADS-B. When the traffic density over some flight level makes the mix of ATC separation methods unworkable, some airspace will be come exclusionary too. That might affect some corporate folks.

The FAA's implementation is supposed to enable 1 & 3 mile separation.

One thing that I see as a real benefit to ADS-B is that the surveillance it works on the ground too. I'm hoping we'll get better IFR clearance service at fields with no towers.

If you have the right ADS-B in gear, you should be able to see other aircraft on the field. Having said that, I'm skeptical that the UAT-1090MHz relay link and surface applications will be fast enough.
 
Simple explanation:

Bureaucratic wet dream that is going to cost us a cubic pile of money.
 
OK, it's morning now.

Here are some basics.

The concept behind ADS-B is for aircraft to transmit their position data (derived from GPS or equivalent systems) out, so that the signal can be picked up by ground stations and relayed to ATC. This is supposed to reduce the need for radar installations but not replace it. This basic capability is called ADS-B OUT, and comes in two flavors
1090ES - by using the remaining free bits in a mode S transponder extended squitter data packet, an aircraft can satisfy the requirement. This is what the airlines like, and will be required for class A airspace usage (it is valid in all airspace). This is also the emerging standard in Europe as its what Eurocontrol is pursuing
978/UAT - this is a "new" datalink frequency, and it's what the FAA hopes will be used by all us piston folks who don't fly in class A airspace.

So, we have aircraft broadcasting their positions on two different frequencies, both of which the FAA can recieve. How does that benefit the aircraft? Basically it doesn't. It's supposed to reduce the cost of the ATC system be requiring less expensive radar infrastructure and reduce operations and maintenance costs.

That's the basics of ADS-B OUT. If you have 1090ES OUT, you can fly anywhere. If you have 978 OUT, you can fly anywhere except class A. If you don't have either one in 2020, you'll be locked out of some airspace the same way you are today without a transponder.

Now welcome to the weird wonderful world of ADS-B IN.

If you can make the aircraft listen on the ADS-B frequencies, then they can "hear" the surrounding traffic and display that information in cockpit. The FAA is also going to rebroadcast (ADS-R) the information they "hear" on one frequency out the other frequency, so if you have a 978 aircraft, you'll hear other 978 aircraft as well as the rebroadcast of nearby 1090ES aircraft. The delay is pretty small based on my observations, much less than the TIS-B information we may receive today. Note that currently we don't have an ADS-B replacement for TCAS, which is based on aircraft actively interrogating each other's Mode C transponders, so until that happens don't expect to replace your current transponder with an ADS-B box unless that also provides Mode C functions.

There's a lot of "room" in the 978 data link, and as a result the FAA will be implementing FIS-B (Flight Information Service-Broadcast) data which will contain weather, NOTAMS, TFRs, and other data that XM provides today. This information will be available whenever you're within receiving range of an ADS-B ground link, which will vary but be pretty good at 2000 AGL most places. Unlike satellite-based XM, the FIS-B signal may NOT be available on the ground unless you're close to a broadcast point.

So, depending on how you equip, you can have different services.

If you do the bare minimum - buy a Mode C/Mode S transponder with the 1090ES rebroadcast of a GPS position (either from an external certified receiver or from an internal receiver built into the unit), you'll comply with the rule and be able to fly in all airspace, and you may be able to show other traffic on a display. I believe, based on what I heard at AOPA this year, that Garmin has submitted a version of their current GTX330 unit for certification.

If you buy a UAT transceiver (I'm not aware of any UAT Transmit-only offerings) similar to the GDL-90, you'll comply with ADS-B out, be able to fly anywhere but class A, and also get the ability to display traffic and FIS-B.

If you want the whole package (fly anywhere, see all traffic in your vicinity even if the FAA gear is down, receive FIS-B stuff, and whatever comes down the pike) then you'll need 1090ES OUT and IN, and 978 IN at a minimum.

This stuff is still in it's infancy, and the FAA is encouraging manufacturers to get the technology inserted into their product cycles now. I believe they may even go so far as to award a contract to the vendors to cover the delta of the R&D costs so that the next models will include the technology. We'll have to see how quickly the avionics industry picks up on this stuff. What I expect to see eventually is a range of products up to and including the dual-band in/out unit.

Now, my personal experience. I've participated in several test efforts related to ADS-B. Recently I flew a test mission where we launched, waited for a UAT-equipped glider to be towed to altitude, and then flew converging and overtaking flight profiles "against" the glider. Gliders are HARD to see, but the UAT traffic data allowed us to pick them up much easier, so that we could easily maintain visual separation even as we flew directly over or under them (500 ft). Our test airplane was equipped on both bands and so we also were able to see the ADS-Rebroadcast of the glider's 978 signal on our 1090ES display. the position difference between the "real time" 978 display and the "rebroadcast" 1090ES display was pretty small, a lot smaller than I'd allow ANY blip to get to me, so I'll say that ADS-R is a big improvement over TIS-B.

Anyway, I've rambled enough except to say that the 10,000 price tag is for an early-model UAT transceiver, not a portable 978 MHz receiver. Those are in the 1,000 range.
 
And a alllll of the above has no true authentication that anything received by any receiver in the system is really the aircraft it claims to be, nor any encryption. (Along with other problems that were pretty well-documented in a document Alan dug up and shared in another thread here this week. Thanks Alan.)

So you take a whole bunch of assumed-accurate GPS data, send it through an unauthenticated and unencrypted 90's style data link over RF to the ground, and then use it for 1 to 3 mile separation.

Brilliant.

I wonder when they'll catch the first kid with a sound card in a laptop and a 900 MHz transmitter sitting on a country road somewhere "making airliners turn! Check this out d00d!"

Stay tuned for articles about ADS-B in 2600 Magazine soon.
 
And a alllll of the above has no true authentication that anything received by any receiver in the system is really the aircraft it claims to be, nor any encryption. (Along with other problems that were pretty well-documented in a document Alan dug up and shared in another thread here this week. Thanks Alan.)

So you take a whole bunch of assumed-accurate GPS data, send it through an unauthenticated and unencrypted 90's style data link over RF to the ground, and then use it for 1 to 3 mile separation.

Brilliant.

I wonder when they'll catch the first kid with a sound card in a laptop and a 900 MHz transmitter sitting on a country road somewhere "making airliners turn! Check this out d00d!"

Stay tuned for articles about ADS-B in 2600 Magazine soon.


Technically correct points points, but I'm not sure how it's different from somebody sitting at gravelly point (near KDCA) with a handheld and saying "Contintenal 1204, go around" on the tower frequency. There's no authentication in radar or radio transmissions either.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be better if the datalinks had a secure channel (although the key management might be a nightmare), but not sure it's an operational requirement. Also, I'm 99% sure the 1090ES scheme doesn't have any bits to spare.
 
Technically correct points points, but I'm not sure how it's different from somebody sitting at gravelly point (near KDCA) with a handheld and saying "Contintenal 1204, go around" on the tower frequency. There's no authentication in radar or radio transmissions either.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be better if the datalinks had a secure channel (although the key management might be a nightmare), but not sure it's an operational requirement. Also, I'm 99% sure the 1090ES scheme doesn't have any bits to spare.

I hear ya. It just sounds like bad engineering all-'round, really.

For the reason why it's not the same as the "go-around" transmission... you don't need to be anywhere near the aircraft you're intending to mess with, just near a receiver... unless the receiver data is going to be filtered geographically... which it should be...

But then again, there's unintended consequences for that when relatively rare but not unheard-of RF-propagation-enhancing effects make it all the way up to 900 MHz...

"Luckily" your scenario is simpler, and people that do this stuff are pretty simple-minded...

I still remember when FCC and various other authorities hunted for a kid with an EDACS radio on the Denver PD/Fire trunked radio system for weeks. He'd stand out in his yard and call off backup officers from responding to things, and other crazy stuff. He got more and more bold as the weeks went on.

He was caught, but it seems like engineering-wise, we've already learned this lesson in the RF systems world.

Putting a new system on-air without encryption and authentication at this point, could be called negligence. Gross negligence, perhaps.

Plus in the voice scenario, most bad-guys don't think of recording their voices... they're standing there live and in-person. In the data world, you could drop off a box in a difficult to find location and remotely command it from behind a Tor routing and no one would ever know where or who you were, as long as the components to build it were wiped of your fingerprints and couldn't be traced to credit card transactions.
 
And a alllll of the above has no true authentication that anything received by any receiver in the system is really the aircraft it claims to be, nor any encryption. (Along with other problems that were pretty well-documented in a document Alan dug up and shared in another thread here this week. Thanks Alan.)

Spoofing was a major concern raised by the former Australian CASA (like FAA) administrator way back. He even demonstrated it using a laptop and easy to obtain parts. It's a concern that was beat to death early on.

I haven't heard this officially (policy now keeps discussion on security measures out of public view), but I believe the threat of spoofing can be countered by what's now called multilateration or ASDE-X applications.

This is where receivers at multiple surveyed sites receive the broadcast and because the transmission times are easy to calculate they can perform a plausibility calculation to see if the point of origin is plausibly at the coordinates provided.

As an aside, there is an article in Sept 25 AWS&T that talks about a Sensis application that uses ADSE-X to track irregular braking and ground movement patterns to automate the detection of Hot Spots.

No doubt there are multiple other means for validity checking. They have already been aircraft seen jittering their way through Hudson Bay ADS-B airspace owing to equipment/software problems. My sense now is that irregularities are picked up by the computers pretty fast at this point.

I don't know how it is with UAT but with 1090MHz, the 24 bit ICAO address is embedded in every extended squitter transmission.
 
Spoofing was a major concern raised by the former Australian CASA (like FAA) administrator way back. He even demonstrated it using a laptop and easy to obtain parts. It's a concern that was beat to death early on.

I haven't heard this officially (policy now keeps discussion on security measures out of public view), but I believe the threat of spoofing can be countered by what's now called multilateration or ASDE-X applications.

This is where receivers at multiple surveyed sites receive the broadcast and because the transmission times are easy to calculate they can perform a plausibility calculation to see if the point of origin is plausibly at the coordinates provided.

As an aside, there is an article in Sept 25 AWS&T that talks about a Sensis application that uses ADSE-X to track irregular braking and ground movement patterns to automate the detection of Hot Spots.

No doubt there are multiple other means for validity checking. They have already been aircraft seen jittering their way through Hudson Bay ADS-B airspace owing to equipment/software problems. My sense now is that irregularities are picked up by the computers pretty fast at this point.

I don't know how it is with UAT but with 1090MHz, the 24 bit ICAO address is embedded in every extended squitter transmission.

There's a similar ID in UAT, I'm sure. But there's nothing to prevent forging it.
 
Spoofing was a major concern raised by the former Australian CASA (like FAA) administrator way back. He even demonstrated it using a laptop and easy to obtain parts. It's a concern that was beat to death early on.

I haven't heard this officially (policy now keeps discussion on security measures out of public view), but I believe the threat of spoofing can be countered by what's now called multilateration or ASDE-X applications.

[snip]

The FAA response to the ADS-B out NPRM indicates the FAA head-in-the-sand approach. The response claims that ADS-B out messages will be validated by radar returns.

In other words, to protect against spoofing the FAA will rely on radar. So ADS-B won't be useful outside of radar coverage and line of sight of FAA ground stations. And any plans to decommision radars won't work.

This ****es away the advantages of ADS-B, which is waaaay the heck better than TCAS II for vertical as well as horizontal SA and avoidance.

But rest assured the FAA ground infrastructure empire will continue and have to expand.
 
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Technically correct points points, but I'm not sure how it's different from somebody sitting at gravelly point (near KDCA) with a handheld and saying "Contintenal 1204, go around" on the tower frequency. There's no authentication in radar or radio transmissions either.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be better if the datalinks had a secure channel (although the key management might be a nightmare), but not sure it's an operational requirement. Also, I'm 99% sure the 1090ES scheme doesn't have any bits to spare.

We can tell the differences between voices can't we?

Readbacks of the bogus clearances help mitigate the problem.

The common handheld is power limited, isn't it?

The rogue transmitter on the ground is limited by line-of-sight.

There aren't the same checks and balances for ADS-B that exist for voice comm. Last I knew the ground infrastructure for ADS-B validation didn't exist...which, if true, means there is NO means of validating ADS-B messages today.
 
Tim,

Thanks for taking the time to lay that out in such detail.
 
Earlier I mentioned that the ADS-B OUT data link for GA is going to have to transmit altimiter barometric setting.

The other new bit of data I've seen, but cant find in a public slide is air/ground status.

There will have to be some input to the UAT Tranciever for air ground.

The material I've seen said that the FAA will accept airspeed as a sensor. Unfortunately, GA airspeed indicators probably don't have an output discrete for Vso?

I'd guess a pressure switch in the pitot system would do it.
 
Adding to Tim's post describing the ADSB, a couple of points. First some terminology:

TIS - the existing mode S capability where the mode S radar system transmits the nearest aircraft positions and limited vector data with respect to your aircraft. It is a relatively crude system a with a varying latency on the order of 6 or more seconds and can track up to 8 nearby aircraft. Sometimes this is referred to as TIS-A, but that is an unofficial term not found in the technical literature. It is not part of ADSB.

TIS-B - ADS-B transmission of aircraft detected by radar that do not have ADS-B capability. The aircraft must have a transponder and using mode C. It is similar to TIS, but the system generates an ADS-B position report message. A unique track identifier is generated so that subsequent updates may be combined into a track over the ground. The position accuracy is based on the radar system and it is converted to a Lat-Long. It has similar latency to TIS. This service can only be received if the target is in radar coverage and the aircraft receiving the report is within ground station coverage and providing ADS-B out. There is no point sending the message if the ground station doesn't detect an aircraft capable of receiving it, as this would just unnecessarily congest the bandwidth, particularly on 1090 MHz.

ADS-R - Rebroadcast of ADS-B out reports received by the ground station on the other ADS-B frequency. So a 1090ES ADSB report would be retransmitted on UAT and visa versa. There should be very little latency, on the order of a second or so. ADS-R will only be transmitted on the other frequency if an aircraft is in the service volume of the affected antenna has ADS-B out and is capable of receiving on the frequency.

FIS-B - The weather and NOTAM data for the local 250 NM area around the ground station. Some products such as NEXRAD are transmitted on a national basis, but at a lower resolution. This data is only transmitted on the UAT link. You have to be within the service volume of the ground station to receive it. It is continuously transmitted even if there are no participating aircraft with UAT ADS-B Out capability, so a portable receiver only will be able to obtain the reports. IMHO, other than the fact it FIS-B is free once you have a receiver, XM is superior.

The minimum required equipment is ADSB Out. The UAT or 1090ES transponder is acceptable. UAT may only be used below 18,000 feet. 1090ES is required above 18,000 feet, but may be used below this altitude. So far, only 1090ES is being used outside the USA and UAT is not supported internationally.

The ADS-B out self identifies the ADS-B In capability, IOW if there is no ADS-B In capability, 1090ES ADS-B In capable, UAT ADS-B In capable, or both. This allows for mixing and matching of system types. I own a GTX330, so I will probably update this to ES at some point and if the market provides it, I will install a dual receiver with both 1090ES and UAT ADS-B In capability. The dual receiver will allow me to ignore the ADS-R messages and to receive both frequencies when I am below the service volume of the ground station.

Edit: One other key point, the transponder based 1090ES always transmits the unique 24 bit address, but the UAT has an anonymous mode when transmitting VFR and not receiving ATC services.
 
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Earlier I mentioned that the ADS-B OUT data link for GA is going to have to transmit altimiter barometric setting.

The other new bit of data I've seen, but cant find in a public slide is air/ground status.

There will have to be some input to the UAT Tranciever for air ground.

The material I've seen said that the FAA will accept airspeed as a sensor. Unfortunately, GA airspeed indicators probably don't have an output discrete for Vso?

I'd guess a pressure switch in the pitot system would do it.

The ADS-B system does not require the transmission of the barometric altimeter setting or barometric corrected altitude. It is required to transmit barometric pressure altitude and geometric altitude (GPS altitude).

The on ground - in air status can be determined by aircraft velocity or IOW groundspeed. This data is provided by the WAAS GPS.
 
The ADS-B system does not require the transmission of the barometric altimeter setting or barometric corrected altitude. It is required to transmit barometric pressure altitude and geometric altitude (GPS altitude).

John, you are right, I stand corrected. I thought rememberd seeing something on that at work, not applicable to what I was doing, but I guess I didn't.

I have been trying to make myself go back through through the material and list the requirements for GA airplanes and UAT, but I honestly haven't. It's a little too much like the day job.

I apologize if I have created confusion for anyone.

Thanks,
 
The ADS-B system does not require the transmission of the barometric altimeter setting or barometric corrected altitude. It is required to transmit barometric pressure altitude and geometric altitude (GPS altitude).

The on ground - in air status can be determined by aircraft velocity or IOW groundspeed. This data is provided by the WAAS GPS.

How about helicopters?

José
 
It can't.
.
.
.
Any datalinked weather - XM or ADS-B - is delayed, first by the process where the data from the various NEXRAD sites is combined and given a quick Quality Control check, and then by the process of sending it to XM or the FAA for uplink, and then finally in the time it takes for that data stream to reach your airplane. This delay can be 10 minutes to 30 or more.

The only real-time weather in a cockpit, ANY cockpit, is what you see out the window or what your own on-board weather radar or atmospheric sensors (i.e. strikefinder) give you.

All of that said, datalink weather is 1000 times better than guessing, or asking a flightwatch guy to tell you what the radar looks like. It's perfect for strategic decision making so that you can avoid a line of storms by 100 NM. It's no good for trying to manuever through or around systems.

I can pick through weather much better with XM than the nose radar. Airborne radars are attenuated in strong precip. Just the moment when i really need it. I can see wx at destination when im 1,500 nm away, i dont have to fly within 100nm to stick my nose radar into the wx to get a peak.
 
Yup, sure am.

I have a nose radar. And the xm is better at picking through storms.

I know that might blow some minds, but in practical application, its what works.

It shows snow, rain, mix, lightening.. All with what, 6 mid delay? Storms aren't moving so fat that 6 min is a big deal.

When the weather gets bad we verify xm with the nose radar. The xm has never lied yet. If you see what the garmin aircraft wx radar give for an image, you would agree.


And I fly year round in the NE for a living. So I'm forced to fly in some pretty bad stuff. If the majors are flying, so are we. We see some pretty exciting wx.


Oh and TIS, talk about a great idea, but garbage in practical application.
 
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Yup, sure am.

I have a nose radar. And the xm is better at picking through storms.

I know that might blow some minds, but in practical application, its what works.

It shows snow, rain, mix, lightening.. All with what, 6 mid delay? Storms aren't moving so fat that 6 min is a big deal.

When the weather gets bad we verify xm with the nose radar. The xm has never lied yet. If you see what the garmin aircraft wx radar give for an image, you would agree.


And I fly year round in the NE for a living. So I'm forced to fly in some pretty bad stuff. If the majors are flying, so are we. We see some pretty exciting wx.


Oh and TIS, talk about a great idea, but garbage in practical application.

All I'll say is that I've personally observed XM to be more than 20 minutes "late" on numerous occasions, and that I've seen times when the XM picture and the out-the-window view was significantly different.
 
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