Expired CFI to Sport Pilot CFI
- Thread starter birdtrick
- Start date
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
They’re not excluded.
Yeah, that is how it works for sport pilot. Adding additional categories are not additional ratings. So when a CFI takes a proficiency check for an additional category of light sport, will his CFI certificate add sport pilot instructor to the certificate? That is different from non-instructor licenses where sport pilot will not appear on the certificate of an already certificated ppl or above. But ppl+ licenses don't expire, so they will always be the "master" license that the sport pilot privileges are tied to. In the case of an expired CFI, there is no valid license to add a sport instructor endorsement to.
This I understand, but this assumes a current CFI certificate. What about an expired certificate?
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
§ 61.199 Reinstatement requirements of an expired flight instructor certificate.
(a) Flight instructor certificates. The holder of an expired flight instructor certificate who has not complied with the flight instructor renewal requirements of § 61.197 may reinstate that flight instructor certificate and ratings by filing a completed and signed application with the FAA and satisfactorily completing one of the following reinstatement requirements:
(1) A flight instructor certification practical test, as prescribed by § 61.183(h), for one of the ratings held on the expired flight instructor certificate.
(2) A flight instructor certification practical test for an additional rating.
….
Last edited:
Alright. I have no idea what is involved in option 1. The OP stated he does not want to do this. I don't think option 2 would apply to a sport pilot additional category because it is technically not a rating.
This CFI-Sport Guide https://chesapeakesportpilot.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/NAFI-CFI-Sport-Guide.pdf references existing CFI and new CFI-S. My interpretation is that there are 2 options. 1: An existing CFI can do a proficiency check for additional category, but the successful applicant will not be issued a new license but will receive a logbook endorsement from the instructor performing the check. Option 2: is to add a CFI-S to a non-instructor license sport pilot or above. This will be just like starting fresh to get a CFI-S as if applicant does not have any other CFI certificate. Maybe this is where the thought comes in that applicant must surrender all other CFI certificates ever held in order to start over. I have no idea if I am getting any of this correct. It is just exercise for my brain.
This CFI-Sport Guide https://chesapeakesportpilot.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/NAFI-CFI-Sport-Guide.pdf references existing CFI and new CFI-S. My interpretation is that there are 2 options. 1: An existing CFI can do a proficiency check for additional category, but the successful applicant will not be issued a new license but will receive a logbook endorsement from the instructor performing the check. Option 2: is to add a CFI-S to a non-instructor license sport pilot or above. This will be just like starting fresh to get a CFI-S as if applicant does not have any other CFI certificate. Maybe this is where the thought comes in that applicant must surrender all other CFI certificates ever held in order to start over. I have no idea if I am getting any of this correct. It is just exercise for my brain.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
61.5 Certificates and ratings issued under this part.
c) The following ratings are placed on a flight instructor certificate when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought:
…
(5) Sport pilot rating.
Okay, so a CFI can back step to a lower rating of Sport Pilot. I did not know that. For ppl operating sport airplanes, there is no back step requirement to get the lesser sport pilot rating. It is kind of like a cpl airplane trying to go back and get a private pilot airplane. A cpl airplane could go for a ppl rotorcraft, but since sport pilot license does not have any category, there is nothing to back step to that would require a new rating.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
So much wrong there I’m not even going to try.
It is okay to point out what I have wrong so I and others reading can learn what is right.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I mostly have.
Okay, I will re-read all your post and see if I can piece together what is wrong. I admit that CFI operations are not well known to me. I am trying to understand how it applies to light sport because I am a cpl airplane with ppl rotorcraft currently operating light sport. For me, light sport is not a rating, and any additional light sport category (except for CFI-S) would be added with a logbook endorsement, not a rating on my license.
From the FAA regarding instructions for Form 8710-11- Airman Certificate and/or Rating Application-Sport Pilot: Explains the scenario of a CFI airplane-instrument that wants to flight instruct light sport in a different category aircraft. It clearly indicates that it is a proficiency check and not an additional rating. I also found this commentary on askacfi regarding applying for sport pilot cfi with expired cfi.
"(2) A flight instructor certification practical test for an additional rating.
What may muck this plan up is that with a flight instructor rating one can exercise the privileges of a Sport Pilot Instructor rating and that may mean that it is not an additional rating:"
"(2) A flight instructor certification practical test for an additional rating.
What may muck this plan up is that with a flight instructor rating one can exercise the privileges of a Sport Pilot Instructor rating and that may mean that it is not an additional rating:"
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
I am a commercial pilot, rotorcraft-gyroplane and a rotorcraft-gyroplane Certificated Flight Instructor.
I may teach to any level of rotorcraft-gyroplane certificate or Sport Pilot Gyroplane.
If I was a Sport Pilot Gyroplane instructor I would be limited to teach on a Sport Pilot Gyroplane level.
In my opinion based on my experience if someone wants to become a flight instructor they need learn to read the Federal Aviation Regulations rather than try to interpret a paraphrased explanation on social media.
As a flight instructor I give ground instruction on how to read the FARs.
If someone has not instructed for 25 years they likely have a lot of catching up to do.
In my opinion 61.199 covers it. That was the first answer in this thread.
I may teach to any level of rotorcraft-gyroplane certificate or Sport Pilot Gyroplane.
If I was a Sport Pilot Gyroplane instructor I would be limited to teach on a Sport Pilot Gyroplane level.
In my opinion based on my experience if someone wants to become a flight instructor they need learn to read the Federal Aviation Regulations rather than try to interpret a paraphrased explanation on social media.
As a flight instructor I give ground instruction on how to read the FARs.
If someone has not instructed for 25 years they likely have a lot of catching up to do.
In my opinion 61.199 covers it. That was the first answer in this thread.
Pinecone
En-Route
A CFI, acting as a CFI is not being paid to fly airplanes. They are being paid to TEACH. You don't need a 2nd Class Medical to instruct and to be paid to instruct. You can do it on a 3rd class or Basic Med. Or, if you are only teaching people with a PP in the appropriate category and class, you don't need a medical at all.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Unfortunately when people’s foundation on the subject is a prejudice against Sport Pilots and Sport Pilot instructors, no amount of logic will change that.
NorthEast Ohio
Pre-takeoff checklist
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2020
- Messages
- 187
- Display Name
Display name:
NorthEast Ohio
Correct me if I’m wrong:
The language in 61.199 specifically says “practical test”. So the sport CFI cannot be done by two CFI as a ‘proficiency check’, but maybe as a “practical test” from a DPE.
(That is, if you want it to count as “reinstatement requirements” as described in 61.199.)
So the question, for me, becomes: can a DPE perform a practical test for ‘sport CFI’?
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Making a hard left turn here (and perhaps the OP would have the answer, since he holds the rating), but what allows an instructor to give instruction toward and sign off a pilot for a Private Pilot-Powered Parachute rating?
They way I understand it, there is no DPE practical test option for an existing CFI
This is from the Sport CFI guide I referenced earlier. It applies to new CFI-S applicants only. The procedure for an existing CFI is different
"Teaching a CFI-S is similar to teaching a traditional CFI. Training can take place in any airplane the instructor is certified to teach in, although the checkride must take place in an LSA. The instructor is not required have 2 years of instructional experience to sign off the applicant. The applicant will take the practical test with an FAA DPE approved to give sport pilot instructor tests, or with a FSDO FAA staff 6 member. Most sport pilot instructors take their practical test with an FAA DPE."
"One other exciting aspect of this rule is that a CFI for a different category and class of aircraft, such as an FAA Certified Glider Instructor, can easily add-on airplane instructional privileges at the light sport level through a proficiency check in an LSA by another instructor."
Last edited:
Clip4
Final Approach
[
SP CFI prejudice notwithstanding, for an expired CFI to have privileges to instruct private - commercial and high performance/complex airplanes the level of testing required to renew an expired certificate needs to be more than demonstrating knowledge and skills in a powered parachute.
Clip4
Final Approach
For a unexpired CFI cert holder, training and a proficiency check recorded in a logbook. An SP CFI cannot do trading for a private cert.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Depends whether or not demonstrating those skills will result in the addition of a Sport Pilot rating on the instructor certificate. In the OP’s case, it appears that it would.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
So a Sport Pilot instructor with Powered Parachute endorsement can instruct at the Private Pilot level?
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
It appears to me that a DPE is required for any flight instructor practical test including a Sport Pilot CFI.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Practical test, yes. Proficiency check for additional instructor privileges at the Sport Pilot level with a current flight instructor certificate, no.
Last edited:
I 100% agree. That is why adding an additional category sport pilot endorsement to an expired CFI holder does not satisfy 61.199. This is where the whole debate came in. Can the holder of an expired CFI take a practical test checkride to get the lower rating of CFI-S while keeping the expired cfi. I have come to the strong opinion that it is a NO.
The OP stated that the big boss at the Airman Branch said "2) Passing the Sport Pilot Instructor checkride (powered parachute) will require that I surrender my other Instructor ratings, and they will no longer be able to be reinstated. I would need to go through the entire process again to get each of those ratings back."
Although others have called this B.S., I think that is a somewhat accurate statement. Since an already certified CFI already has sport pilot instruction privileges, there is no path to getting a CFI-S add on "rating" that satisfies 61.199, even with adding an additional category of light sport with a proficiency check. I believe the applicant must not already have a CFI to be able to take a CFI-S checkride resulting in a rating. Only way I can see how to do this is for applicant to not have a CFI by voluntarily surrendering it. This is what makes the big boss's statement true. I think this also ensures that the CFI will only be teaching sport pilots and not use a loophole to jump back to teaching higher level aircraft.
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
I stand corrected; thank you.
I should know better because I gave a check ride for a gyroplane CFI add on the day after I gave his check ride for Sport Pilot Gyroplane.
They were two very different check rides and it was hard to remember which hat I was wearing.
Unrelated to the thread; I feel CFIs giving sport pilot check rides is a bad idea.
A DPE has more training and oversight.
I have given flight reviews to Sport Pilots who in my opinion should have failed their check ride.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
That’s also the distinction that people are missing with regard to reinstating a flight instructor certificate with a practical test for Sport Pilot instructor privileges.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
So who can give instruction for a powered parachute rating at the Private Pilot level?
Doesn't an applicant have to pass the flight review.? A sport pilot add on category proficiency still needs a second CFI to pass the applicant based on skills and knowledge. Are the standards different if you are wearing your DPE hat opposed to your CFI hat?
Vance Breese
Cleared for Takeoff
There is no pass or fail with a flight review.
A sport pilot add on needs a second CFI to give the proficiency check ride.
It is my observation that few CFIs do a check ride to the scope and detail that a DPE does and they do not have the same level of oversite.
I have a DPE mentor I call to help me do a better job.
I never pretend to be a DPE.
Clip4
Final Approach
No, because they are SP CFIs, not a CFI.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
I will remove the question since you can’t put prejudices aside.
Clip4
Final Approach
If you want a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute rating you may not use a SP CFI for that training because SP is not authorized to train for private pilot certificates.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
And since, as you noted, there is no Powered Parachute rating on a Flight Instructor certificate, who CAN give that training?
Clip4
Final Approach
Why wouldn’t they be? A CFI may train both SP and SP CFI.
Clip4
Final Approach
A CFI or SP CFI with a powered parachute logbook endorsement.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
Clip4
Final Approach
I thought you were asking who can train a CFI to teach powered parachute.
MauleSkinner
Touchdown! Greaser!
No…I’m asking who can train someone for a Private Pilot-Powered Parachute rating.