Experimentals and ATC

AggieMike88

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The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
On my flight to the Texas Panhandle and back yesterday, I was on FF for the entire trip. Good weather had lots of people up flying and the frequencies were pretty active. And a few of the folks flying were in experimental aircraft.

That got me wondering how the controllers keep up with what type of experimental it is. The certified aircraft give the controller some sort of clue as to the performance (like my Skylane versus a Twin Cessna versus a Pilatus). But how is that done for experimentals?
 
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That got me wondering how the controllers keep up with what type of experimental it is. The certified aircraft give the controller some sort of clue as to the performance (like my Skylane versus a Twin Cessna versus a Pilatus). But how is that done for experimentals?


They usually ask us on initial contact... ATC guys/gals are pretty up to speed on most of the EX types out there..... Remember, they already have your basic speed on their screen..:yes:
 
RV's actually have an ATC type designator. I can call up at "RV 1234" and they will (usually) know what I am.

In time that I have used "Experimental 1234" and ATC was curious about separation/performance/etc., they asked what my planned cruise speed was.
 
RV's actually have an ATC type designator. I can call up at "RV 1234" and they will (usually) know what I am.

In time that I have used "Experimental 1234" and ATC was curious about separation/performance/etc., they asked what my planned cruise speed was.

I've noticed that there is a generic aircraft type for experimental that then has a particular speed range. Makes sense.

With the other types, they usually ask for what your type is anyway, and then it is on their screen.
 
RV's actually have an ATC type designator. I can call up at "RV 1234" and they will (usually) know what I am.

In time that I have used "Experimental 1234" and ATC was curious about separation/performance/etc., they asked what my planned cruise speed was.
I've been using "Experimental 1234" and I do get the "what type" question when VFR.

When IFR, ATC sees something more on my flight plan (RV10 I suppose) and ofter refers to me as the "RV" to other traffic.

Thanks!
 
I talked with a PP not long ago. He told me that ATC see's my EAB as a flock of birds. He said that ATC reported it could be traffic but believed it was a flock of birds.
 
That got me wondering how the controllers keep up with what type of experimental it is. The certified aircraft give the controller some sort of clue as to the performance (like my Skylane versus a Twin Cessna versus a Pilatus). But how is that done for experimentals?

Pretty much the same way. The more common homebuilts have specific type designators; RV4, RV6, T18, the Wittman Tailwind is TAIL, the Rutan LongEZ is LGEZ, and quite a few others. There are also general type designators for homebuilts. Aircraft with a cruise KIAS of 100 or less have the type designator HXA. Those with a cruise of 101 to 200 are HXB, and those over 200 are HXC.
 
On my flight to the Texas Panhandle and back yesterday, I was on FF for the entire trip. Good weather had lots of people up flying and the frequencies were pretty active. And a few of the folks flying were in experimental aircraft.

That got me wondering how the controllers keep up with what type of experimental it is. The certified aircraft give the controller some sort of clue as to the performance (like my Skylane versus a Twin Cessna versus a Pilatus). But how is that done for experimentals?


Interesting question. I was at an OSH forum (a few years ago) put on by ATC, and they asked us to just say RV-"X" (or other experimental) instead of "Experimental XXX" . lets them know the first time, and they all know RV's are "experimental".

Said nothing about mandatory over head breaks though. ;)
 
I say Experimental if they ask me for the type I tell them Flybaby and let them know the performance is about the same as a Cessna 150.
 
Interesting question. I was at an OSH forum (a few years ago) put on by ATC, and they asked us to just say RV-"X" (or other experimental) instead of "Experimental XXX" . lets them know the first time, and they all know RV's are "experimental".

Said nothing about mandatory over head breaks though. ;)

I got in the habit of using "RV-X" on initial call-up. Then I started flying out of BNW which has a lot of Air Guard helicopter traffic and I kept getting "Did you say ARMY?", so I switched back to "Experimental...". I'm starting to get back into "RV..." now, though.
 
I got a chuckle out of the KAPA controller asking the Wilga used for aerial camera work over the Sonheim Cup (?) golf thingy here yesterday, his type three times and the Wilga pilot sighing and giving him the designator with "... that'll bring it up in your computer..."

(Note I don't know if that's the correct name and I don't follow golf at all, but apparently the Swedes won or something. Parker, CO had cars parked everywhere and fleets motorcoaches driving all over the place all weekend. Looked like a small invasion force.

The funniest thing was the tiny KIA SUVs all running around with "Official Kia Vehicle" magnets all over them. As opposed to an unofficial Kia vehicle? Heh.

Oh well. Thanks to the golf world for injecting mega cash into Parker's economy. There's probably some really tired caterers and other service folks taking a much needed break today.

Think the whole thing was at Castle Pines near Castle Rock but never really looked it up. Bunch of air traffic hanging around CASSE must have been entertaining for the TRACON. Didn't see any TFRs up over it but it was way bigger than any football game at a stadium. May just have missed it. Had no intention of flying over or near it.
 
I got a chuckle out of the KAPA controller asking the Wilga used for aerial camera work over the Sonheim Cup (?) golf thingy here yesterday, his type three times and the Wilga pilot sighing and giving him the designator with "... that'll bring it up in your computer..."

(Note I don't know if that's the correct name and I don't follow golf at all, but apparently the Swedes won or something. Parker, CO had cars parked everywhere and fleets motorcoaches driving all over the place all weekend. Looked like a small invasion force.

The funniest thing was the tiny KIA SUVs all running around with "Official Kia Vehicle" magnets all over them. As opposed to an unofficial Kia vehicle? Heh.

Oh well. Thanks to the golf world for injecting mega cash into Parker's economy. There's probably some really tired caterers and other service folks taking a much needed break today.

Think the whole thing was at Castle Pines near Castle Rock but never really looked it up. Bunch of air traffic hanging around CASSE must have been entertaining for the TRACON. Didn't see any TFRs up over it but it was way bigger than any football game at a stadium. May just have missed it. Had no intention of flying over or near it.


It was basically the Ryder Cup for women's golf. And from what I have heard, the US got clobbered.
 
But if you're flying an RV-12, probably better to refer to yourself as "RV-light" --- another -150/PA-18 theme variation
 
I fly a liberty certified aircraft and constantly get called light sport,experimental,and the other day the tower told an aircraft to just follow the little guy.what does it really matter.
 
I talked with a PP not long ago. He told me that ATC see's my EAB as a flock of birds. He said that ATC reported it could be traffic but believed it was a flock of birds.

Are they all flying in the same direction.... :)
 
I got a chuckle out of the KAPA controller asking the Wilga used for aerial camera work over the Sonheim Cup (?) golf thingy here yesterday, his type three times and the Wilga pilot sighing and giving him the designator with "... that'll bring it up in your computer..."

They used a WILGA for aerial camera work???
 
I was once in the pattern at Victorville with "Boeing Experimental Heavy 002". (787, SN 002)

I also overheard an exchange between "JetBlue Experimental 001" and ATC. They were testing a new avionics suite. (A320)
 
You are only required to identify yourself as experimental on initial contact. I usually say "Experimental RV7 212MD" and after that most controllers will use RV212MD when talking to me. It is as important that the other traffic knows what to look for as the controllers. Most pilots are familiar with what a RV looks like. When I fly the N3N I use "Yellow Biplane 45261" as most pilots and controllers have no idea what a N3N is but they can sure figure out what a big yellow biplane is. Don
 
You are only required to identify yourself as experimental on initial contact. I usually say "Experimental RV7 212MD" and after that most controllers will use RV212MD when talking to me. It is as important that the other traffic knows what to look for as the controllers. Most pilots are familiar with what a RV looks like. When I fly the N3N I use "Yellow Biplane 45261" as most pilots and controllers have no idea what a N3N is but they can sure figure out what a big yellow biplane is. Don

Where can that requirement be found?
 
Where can that requirement be found?


:popcorn:..

The local tower told me my first radio call to them MUST include the phrase "experimental"....

I seem to remember attending a forum at OSH given by the FAA and the suggestion was the same..... :dunno:
 
:popcorn:..

The local tower told me my first radio call to them MUST include the phrase "experimental"....

I seem to remember attending a forum at OSH given by the FAA and the suggestion was the same..... :dunno:

The regulation states; "Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers." There's no requirement to explicitly state "experimental" if you've already identified as an experimental type of aircraft. You wrote, " I usually say 'Experimental RV7 212MD'." As all RV7s are experimental aircraft you can drop the "Experimental" part of that.


§ 91.319 Aircraft having experimental certificates: Operating limitations.

(a) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate—

(1) For other than the purpose for which the certificate was issued; or

(2) Carrying persons or property for compensation or hire.

(b) No person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate outside of an area assigned by the Administrator until it is shown that—

(1) The aircraft is controllable throughout its normal range of speeds and throughout all the maneuvers to be executed; and

(2) The aircraft has no hazardous operating characteristics or design features.

(c) Unless otherwise authorized by the Administrator in special operating limitations, no person may operate an aircraft that has an experimental certificate over a densely populated area or in a congested airway. The Administrator may issue special operating limitations for particular aircraft to permit takeoffs and landings to be conducted over a densely populated area or in a congested airway, in accordance with terms and conditions specified in the authorization in the interest of safety in air commerce.

(d) Each person operating an aircraft that has an experimental certificate shall—

(1) Advise each person carried of the experimental nature of the aircraft;

(2) Operate under VFR, day only, unless otherwise specifically authorized by the Administrator; and

(3) Notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating the aircraft into or out of airports with operating control towers.

(e) No person may operate an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i) of this chapter for compensation or hire, except a person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i)(1) for compensation or hire to—

(1) Tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle in accordance with § 91.309; or

(2) Conduct flight training in an aircraft which that person provides prior to January 31, 2010.

(f) No person may lease an aircraft that is issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i) of this chapter, except in accordance with paragraph (e)(1) of this section.

(g) No person may operate an aircraft issued an experimental certificate under § 21.191(i)(1) of this chapter to tow a glider that is a light-sport aircraft or unpowered ultralight vehicle for compensation or hire or to conduct flight training for compensation or hire in an aircraft which that persons provides unless within the preceding 100 hours of time in service the aircraft has—

(1) Been inspected by a certificated repairman (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating, an appropriately rated mechanic, or an appropriately rated repair station in accordance with inspection procedures developed by the aircraft manufacturer or a person acceptable to the FAA; or

(2) Received an inspection for the issuance of an airworthiness certificate in accordance with part 21 of this chapter.

(h) The FAA may issue deviation authority providing relief from the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section for the purpose of conducting flight training. The FAA will issue this deviation authority as a letter of deviation authority.

(1) The FAA may cancel or amend a letter of deviation authority at any time.

(2) An applicant must submit a request for deviation authority to the FAA at least 60 days before the date of intended operations. A request for deviation authority must contain a complete description of the proposed operation and justification that establishes a level of safety equivalent to that provided under the regulations for the deviation requested.

(i) The Administrator may prescribe additional limitations that the Administrator considers necessary, including limitations on the persons that may be carried in the aircraft.

(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120-0005)

[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34308, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-282, 69 FR 44881, July 27, 2004]
 
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I usually say "Experimental RV7 212MD" and after that most controllers will use RV212MD when talking to me. It is as important that the other traffic knows what to look for as the controllers. Most pilots are familiar with what a RV looks like. When I fly the N3N I use "Yellow Biplane 45261" as most pilots and controllers have no idea what a N3N is but they can sure figure out what a big yellow biplane is. Don
As I said previously, I've been using "Experimental 215TG". Based on this thread I will going to "RV 215TG".

I'm skipping the "10" because I think the numbers can get jumbled.

And to be clear I will be using "ARE VEE 215 Tango Golf"

We'll see how it goes....
 
I've used "Fly Baby Experimental" the 2-3 times I've flown into a controlled field, and it's invariably been shortened to just "Experimental"....

Ron Wanttaja
 
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In theory, your aircraft registration is also considered by the FCC to embody the authority to transmit on the aircraft band, so it should be in your initial contact somewhere. (Not just "orange Bonanza" or the like.)

This must not be an enforcement priority for the FCC, because it's common practice by pilots to omit the "N" from the number. The remaining portion of the N-number is not a legal callsign in the US, where all callsigns begin with K, W, A or N by international agreement.
 
Yeah I've been using VELO/G and GLAS/U from the contractions manual for years. Computer always accepts it. Usually check in with ATC and throw in experimental but even if I forget they usually are familiar with the type.
 
They used a WILGA for aerial camera work???

It flies up here (blimps don't), it's slow, it has a giant camera ball hanging off of it...

Could probably use a 182 or 206 with a camera ball too I suppose.

Don't have a clue why they use the Wilga.
 
My experimental airplane Operating Limitations say I "must to notify air traffic control of the experimental nature of this airplane when operating into or out of airports with an operational control tower."

It would seem to me that if ATC would choose to give me directives based on the experimental nature of my airplane that it would be in the spirit of cooperation and partnership to tell ATC on the first transmission or at least the second, assuming the situation and conditions permitted.

I can see:
"Des Moines Approach, this is Flight Design 987XX Experimental"
or "Des Moines Approach, this is Flight Design 987XX"
"Flight Design 987XX this is Des Moines Approach"
"Des Moines Approach, this is Flight Design 987XX Experimental with Charlie 20 miles east at 4,500 landing Des Moines"
 
In theory, your aircraft registration is also considered by the FCC to embody the authority to transmit on the aircraft band, so it should be in your initial contact somewhere. (Not just "orange Bonanza" or the like.)

This must not be an enforcement priority for the FCC, because it's common practice by pilots to omit the "N" from the number. The remaining portion of the N-number is not a legal callsign in the US, where all callsigns begin with K, W, A or N by international agreement.

Technically correct for some but not all. Airline call signs are also FCC issued and do not include the N number. FCC deconflicted FAA callsigns in their DB a little over a decade ago in cooperation with NTIA also. (Military aviation frequencies fall under NTIA jurisdiction not FCC.). Thus why you hear "Cactus" instead of "America West".

Another example would be the never ending CAP aviation callsigns that changed every few years until everyone got it settled, and the changing of many CAP FM callsigns to avoid overlap between NTIA/USAF callsigns and FCC Aviation callsigns.

Colorado Wing for example, held "Pikes Peak" as their NTIA/Military callsign, but Pike Peak was also a defunct airline with an active FCC callsign. Colorado Wing was switched to "Blue Mesa" to avoid transmitting the Airline's FCC callsign on the FCC-jurisdiction AM VHF Aircraft Band by a simple missed switch throw between the AM and FM radios.

Wyoming Wing was "King" which was also in use, and was switched to "High Plains".

This all happened forever ago, and is widely publicized or I wouldn't be mentioning it since NTIA/USAF get a little paranoid about their callsigns.

Prior to "Pilkes Peak", Colorado was issued three callsigns... "Pikes Peak" were aeronautical stations, "Red River" were mobile stations, and "Blue River" we're fixed location stations... Back when NTIA/USAF separated them. Wyoming was "King", " Queen", and "Jack" respectively.

Then there was a period of time where the aeronautical callsign was used with suffixes... "Air" for aircraft, "Mobile" for mobiles, no suffix for fixed ground stations.

(I've been Pikes Peak 120, Pikes Peak 120 Mobile, Blue Mesa 175, and Blue Mesa 45 over the years.)

The aircraft have had mixes of tail numbers and prefix numbers based upon Wing with both pro-word prefixes and at times the "Air" suffix for NTIA, and mixes of tail number, "CAPFLIGHT" and nowadays just "CAP". Controllers are STILL confused over "CAPFLIGHT" and "CAP" a decade later and you'll still hear both even though "CAPFLIGHT" hasn't been authorized in a coon's age. Partially that was tracked down to a bad internal FAA memo that had the change backward many years ago, it was eventually learned. Or so I heard in unofficially from a very high source once.

I've written about a billion training documents about which callsign to use for CAP trainees to use on which radios over the years. Entertaining to say the least. That's being kind, honestly.

Additionally, it should be noted that the International treaties for K, W, N, and A are superseded for Aviation worldwide, and "N" in aviation is the FAA's chosen standard related to aviation treaties, and is not directly related to the FCC treaties nor needed in NTIA/Military frequency use of Mil Band AM Air frequencies.

(But in that world I'm WY0X. Grin...)

Interesting side-note: Take a look at all of the radar and comm frequencies that would be required by an early AWACS aircraft and the typical filtering and selectivity/sensitivity available to RF engineers at the time of the first AWACS type aircraft, and you'll see exactly how we ended up slicing up the spectrum the way it ended up for both civilian and military use above VHF.

They had to engineer the comm systems not to interfere with the radar systems of the day and vice-versa, and also each other. Not easy in those early radios. Note they're never an even or odd multiple apart from each other on a spectrum chart.

Harmonics suck when transmitters and receivers and their antennas are all within the length of a 707. :)

They're also never 10.3 MHz or 11.? (Forgot) away in 2Freq+IF or -IF multiples either. Direct IF interference also seriously sucks at close distances with lightweight shielding and coax. ;)

There's a metric ass-load of math and design layout of specrtum allocations triggered by the RF design and art of the day, that shows up in modern aviation band and military radar bands, and where they ended up. The history is pretty impressive considering the crappy performance of "state of the art" receivers and transmitters of the 50's up thru the 70's.

As a crazy-smart RF Engineer friend says, "Passive Intermod(ulation Interference) is the Devil's snack food!" Think there's a few loose metal on metal joints in the near-field of that giant flying saucer shaped antenna on top of an AWACS 707 or Hawkeye, acting as little RF diodes and mixing all that high power RF coming off that thing? Heh.

Incredible those aircraft even work at all, without jamming the crap out of themselves, if you think about it.

I guess I was bored enough to type all that up. Whee.
 
In theory, your aircraft registration is also considered by the FCC to embody the authority to transmit on the aircraft band, so it should be in your initial contact somewhere. (Not just "orange Bonanza" or the like.)

This must not be an enforcement priority for the FCC, because it's common practice by pilots to omit the "N" from the number. The remaining portion of the N-number is not a legal callsign in the US, where all callsigns begin with K, W, A or N by international agreement.

Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 87—AVIATION SERVICES
Subpart C—Operating Requirements and Procedures
§ 87.107 Station identification.

(a) Aircraft station. Identify by one of the following means:
(1) Aircraft radio station call sign.
(2) The type of aircraft followed by the characters of the registration marking (“N” number) of the aircraft, omitting the prefix letter “N.” When communication is initiated by a ground station, an aircraft station may use the type of aircraft followed by the last three characters of the registration marking. Notwithstanding any other provision of this section, an aircraft being moved by maintenance personnel from one location in an airport to another location in that airport may be identified by a station identification consisting of the name of the company owning or operating the aircraft, followed by the word “Maintenance” and additional alphanumeric characters of the licensee's choosing.
(3) The FAA assigned radiotelephony designator of the aircraft operating organization followed by the flight identification number.
(4) An aircraft identification approved by the FAA for use by aircraft stations participating in an organized flying activity of short duration.​
 
There ya go Jim. I was hunting for that last night. Part 87. Will have to remember that one.
 
It would seem to me that if ATC would choose to give me directives based on the experimental nature of my airplane that it would be in the spirit of cooperation and partnership to tell ATC on the first transmission or at least the second, assuming the situation and conditions permitted.

Can't imagine what directives ATC might choose to give you based on the experimental nature of your airplane. If you don't tell ATC you need some type of special handling they're going to treat you as any other non-experimental of similar size and performance. Here's what Order JO 7110.65 Air Traffic Control has on the matter:

9−2−4. EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS

a.
When notified that an experimental aircraft
requires special handling:

NOTE−
14 CFR Section 91.319(d)(3) requires that each person
operating an aircraft with an experimental certificate must
notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the
aircraft when operating into or out of airports with
operating control towers.


1. Clear the aircraft according to pilot requests
as traffic permits and if not contrary to ATC
procedures.

2. Once approved, do not ask the pilot to deviate
from a planned action except to preclude an
emergency situation.

b. At locations where volume or complexity of
experimental aircraft operations warrant, a letter of
agreement may be consummated between the facility
and operator.
 
There are a number of provisions in my Experimental Operating Limitations that ATC may invoke if they choose and they would in doing so treat me differently than a standard certificated airplane.
 
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