Expansion Denied

[RMCN172RG]

Any one have thoughts or experience on how to meet requirement.

The FAA required the airport find one business that could guarantee 500 new operations -- takeoffs and landings -- a year. The airport handled 27,000 commercial flights last year.

http://www.thetimesherald.com/article/20100316/NEWS01/3160304/Runway-plans-grounded

 

[BillTIZ]

wait.. let me see.. 500 operations a year... take offs and landings..
is that 500 take offs and 500 landings?

mmm.. just start a business.. any business.. buy a C-150.. and do two take offs and two landings per day with that $30K C-150.. that's 365 days per year... over 730 take offs and 730 landings.. more than enough..

Think people.. Think,...

We had 1001 "glider flights" last year.. so that was at least 1001 tow plane operations not to include the warm up or maintenance ferry flights.. that's 2002 take offs and 2002 landings... well.. all the glider landings were not on airport.. but 95% of them were.

And we only fly on average.. 100 days a year.. 52 weeks, to days per weekend, plus holidays.. minus rainouts.

 

[weilke]

So a 6300ft runway instead of a 5100ft runway would have led to sudden economic growth and lots of companies flocking to the little town who would have otherwise passed it by

 

[flyersfan31]

So a 6300ft runway instead of a 5100ft runway would have led to sudden economic growth and lots of companies flocking to the little town who would have otherwise passed it by

That's what I was thinking. Maybe the A380 would bring more biz?

 

[RMCN172RG]

So a 6300ft runway instead of a 5100ft runway would have led to sudden economic growth and lots of companies flocking to the little town who would have otherwise passed it by

No but it would allow us to hanfle the Daimler A319.

The big influx will be in allowing our core aviation related business, which is clearing customs coming from Canada, to accomadate larger aircraft.

I suspect if I started a flight school I could gaurantee 500 operations which I beleive is a take off and a landing. I suspect they are looking for an increase in transient activity.

Do flight school operations get counted when airports report totals for activity?

 

[Joe B]

I suspect if I started a flight school I could gaurantee 500 operations which I beleive is a take off and a landing. I suspect they are looking for an increase in transient activity.

Do flight school operations get counted when airports report totals for activity?

Take a look at the data for your airport on AirNav. That's pretty much the way your airport reports it to the FAA. The article didn't say anything about the FAA only looking for transient operations - they just want more. The bureaucrats are asking "You're going to spend this money to bring in more business - show us that you're actually going to do that" mode.

It's my understanding that one takeoff = one operation, likewise one landing = one operation. They'll love a flock of students doing touch & goes! Best to check with your airport manager, though, and confirm how he reports it.

 

[weilke]

No but it would allow us to hanfle the Daimler A319.

I thought they had dumped chrysler two years ago . Do they still fly that shuttle ?

The big influx will be in allowing our core aviation related business, which is clearing customs coming from Canada, to accomadate larger aircraft.

Fair enough.
The article referenced didn't mention that reason.

I suspect if I started a flight school I could gaurantee 500 operations which I beleive is a take off and a landing. I suspect they are looking for an increase in transient activity.

Don't know what the grant requirements are, but for 'airport activity', flight training most certainly counts. The Grand Forks airport has 793 daily movements. 98% of those are UND training flights. Training flights are part of the 'Operations GA Local' field.

 

[Everskyward]

The big influx will be in allowing our core aviation related business, which is clearing customs coming from Canada, to accomadate larger aircraft.

Where do you think they go now in lieu of St. Clair County and why do you think they would rather switch if the runway was longer?

 

[slowjoe]

wait.. let me see.. 500 operations a year... take offs and landings..
is that 500 take offs and 500 landings?

The FAA considers 1 operation to be 1 entry into OR 1 exit out of the airport airspace. We do physical counts for the FAA every other year here. A missed approach is 2 operations, a landing is 1, a takeoff is 1. A hot air balloon floating across the airport at 2000AGL is 2. So 500 takeoffs AND 500 landings would be considered 1000 operations.

 

[RMCN172RG]

Where do you think they go now in lieu of St. Clair County and why do you think they would rather switch if the runway was longer?

Pontiac, Detroit City (Young) or Ypsi.

Less traffic means a shorter time waiting for customs.

Avoid DTW Class B and / or Pontiac which is the busiest airport in the state.

Easy in and Out going from East to West especially from Toronto.

 

[Everskyward]

Pontiac, Detroit City (Young) or Ypsi.

Less traffic means a shorter time waiting for customs.

Avoid DTW Class B and / or Pontiac which is the busiest airport in the state.

Easy in and Out going from East to West especially from Toronto.

But normally airplanes clear customs at their destination, if it has customs. There's no requirement to stop at the first POE coming from Canada. I don't see how the longer runway would attract a whole lot of "larger" airplanes just for the purpose of customs.

 

[ScottM]

I suspect if I started a flight school I could gaurantee 500 operations which I beleive is a take off and a landing. I suspect they are looking for an increase in transient activity.

But a flight school would hardly need the expansion to the length of the runway. The current length is more than adequate for that business. I think that if the city is so sure that the lengthening of the runway will bring in enough business that they should consider doing this expansion themselves. Perhaps the costs could be supported by the current tax base which will surely see their investment paid back in no time when the new businesses start to use the longer runway.

 

[weilke]

But normally airplanes clear customs at their destination, if it has customs. There's no requirement to stop at the first POE coming from Canada. I don't see how the longer runway would attract a whole lot of "larger" airplanes just for the purpose of customs.

Fargo, ND is a sleepy class D/TRSA airport with a 9000ft runway. Frequently, transatlantic bizjets heading from europe to California stop to clear customs here. They have a full-size runway and no taxi delays. They also know that the one customs guy that covers the airport will be waiting for them on the ramp and that the paperwork will be processed in the time it takes to service the aircraft with fuel and fresh ice. Many inland GA airports don't have customs available, so if they have to make a stop anyway, they try to make that stop as painless as possible.

 

[Everskyward]

Fargo, ND is a sleepy class D/TRSA airport with a 9000ft runway. Frequently, transatlantic bizjets heading from europe to California stop to clear customs here. They have a full-size runway and no taxi delays. They also know that the one customs guy that covers the airport will be waiting for them on the ramp and that the paperwork will be processed in the time it takes to service the aircraft with fuel and fresh ice. Many inland GA airports don't have customs available, so if they have to make a stop anyway, they try to make that stop as painless as possible.

It's true that there are airports like Fargo which specialize in this kind of thing but they generally have longer runways than 6,300' and are located in the middle of nowhere which adds to the quick in and out. Besides, the OP was talking about traffic coming from Toronto which is not that far for a "larger" airplane.

 

[RMCN172RG]

It's true that there are airports like Fargo which specialize in this kind of thing but they generally have longer runways than 6,300' and are located in the middle of nowhere which adds to the quick in and out. Besides, the OP was talking about traffic coming from Toronto which is not that far for a "larger" airplane.

I'm talking larger than a king air or a small bizjet which is the maximum we can handle now.

 

[Everskyward]

I'm talking larger than a king air or a small bizjet which is the maximum we can handle now.

So am I. I think most "larger" airplanes can make it from Toronto to their destination in a great majority of the US without stopping in the Detroit area. In any case, they wouldn't be put off by flying in the Class B to some of the other airports you mentioned since they would be on IFR flight plans anyway.

I'm not trying to throw cold water on the plan to lengthen the runway as I think it opens up the possibility of more airplanes using it as a base or a destination, I'm just wondering how much extra customs business it will produce.

 

[RMCN172RG]

But how many of those smaller airports away from the border are ports of entry.

Are far do they really want to fly into a foreign country before clearing customs?

I know all the new diamond stars heading anywhere to the west take off in London and clear here, which is a very short hop.

 

[Everskyward]

But how many of those smaller airports away from the border are ports of entry.

I know that around Denver that Centennial is a POE as is Rocky Mountain Metro.

Are far do they really want to fly into a foreign country before clearing customs?

I've flown from many cities in Canada direct to Denver. I've also flown from Toronto to Dallas.

 

[Ken Ibold]

This article kinda misses the point about how airport improvements work. It sounds like the extension was not already on the airport's Capital Improvement Plan, which is why the FAA wanted additional justification for the expense. If the airport revised its CIP (or, better yet, did a master plan update that would include such justification), it could easily get back in line for the FAA funding. This appears to be a case in which the FAA didn't have the money budgeted but the congresscritter did, and so the FAA had to come up with something.