Exciting changes for Pilots of America (New forum software)

[Pilots Of America Management]

The very first post on Pilots of America took place on Fri, 11 Feb 2005 at 17:07:12 GMT. So it seems fitting that as we approach the 11th anniversary of the site we officially announce the next evolution of PoA. As you may or may not know, this site has run on the vBulletin forum software since day one. We've done our best to keep it running well during this time, but it's getting very long in the tooth.

So it is with much excitement that we announce the migration of our forums to brand new software better suited to move forward with us into the future.

After exhaustive research and talking with several forum owners who have migrated from vBulletin 3.x to newer versions of vBulletin and a multitude of competitive products, we have chosen to move forward with a vBulletin competitor called Xenforo. We have been testing this software among the MC and a subset of our users for the last couple of months and we all think that it will serve us well now and moving forward.

• How easy are the discussions to read?
• How easy is it to get signed up and started?
• How well does it keep spam off the board?
• How easy will it be to upgrade the core software moving forward?
• How vibrant is the community surrounding the forum software? Are add-ons/plugins available for functionality that is missing from the base install?
• How well does it handle mobile? (phones and tables now account for about 46% of our overall traffic)
• How does it handle importing our old data? Will it translate our old URLs and redirect any old links to the imported post?
• Can we find a design that is modern and yet gives a sense of "The Blue Board"?
• How are the moderation functions?
• Would our members feel comfortable using it? Would the conventions (new thread, reply, etc) be similar and found in similar places to the old software?

This list is just the beginning of all of the things that we had to consider. In the end, we feel confident in our selection of Xenforo.

In the coming days we'll be opening up a public beta of the new software for all of you to try. We would love feedback on what you think and how we might improve the experience. That said, we will say up right up front that we won't be able to accommodate every request. Every add-on that we install is one more thing that will make upgrading Xenforo more difficult as time passes. The last thing that we would want to do is to install an add-on that becomes abandoned and then have to make a choice in the future between upgrading Xenforo or taking away functionality that we've implemented.

Some things will be different and change is never easy. The MC asks that you go into this with an open mind...but let us know how we could make it better for you. We want this to remain as the best and most vibrant home for general aviation conversation on the internet.

Some important notes about the public beta.

1. We will import all content and accounts over to the new software. The import will be a snapshot of conversation as it was on the old board when we imported it. We still intend for the old board to be the primary place for ongoing conversations until the official cutover. We will make it plainly clear when that will happen.
   
2. Any and all posts on the public beta board will be lost when we do the final import. Do not post anything there that you intend to remain.
   
3. Absolutely no moderation will take place on the public beta board. That does not mean that "anything goes" over there. It means that if there are any fights or heated discussions or RoC violations at all...even once...the member(s) causing such disruption will be automatically banned from the public beta test and will forfeit their opportunity to test the new softare. This ban will not impact their usage of the main site...we just don't have the manpower to keep an eye on both sites. As such, we expect the public beta site to be surrounded by rainbows, butterflies and unicorns. Please don't cause trouble in any way.
   
4. Any configuration that you do of your profile, avatar, signature, settings, etc. will all be lost when we do the final cutover. Please know that the public beta site is temporary and will all be thrown away.

You agree to ALL of these rules from the moment you log on to the public beta site.

Again, thank you being a part of this awesome community. We can't wait to see what the next 11 years will bring!

Regards,

The Pilots of America Management Council

 

[jason]

Anybody want to help test a little before we post for all?

We've had a few people in there playing around for the last day. Good feedback so far.

 

[jason]

Hmm. I had received some PMs, but I totally forgot that comments weren't allowed on posts in News. I've moved this thread to Site Support and Feedback.

Comment away. Feel free to ask questions here as well.

 

[dans2992]

Will Tapatalk still be supported? Will a different app be necessary (or no app at all)?

 

[AggieMike88]

Only looked for a little bit and no bit issues found. Many of the same items there, just a different appearance and location.

Sorta like moving into a new house, waking up in the middle of the night needing to pee, go looking for the bathroom, only to not find it and become more awake to discover you're relieving yourself in the closet.

 

[gprellwitz]

This is now an open beta, right? Am I missing where the URL is posted?

 

[jason]

This is now an open beta, right? Am I missing where the URL is posted?

Opt-in right now. I was still shaking down a few things for the early opter-inners.

 

[jason]

Will Tapatalk still be supported? Will a different app be necessary (or no app at all)?

We haven't finalized that yet. We wanted to ask our members for help making that decision. So far, the feedback is that the responsive design works so well on mobile that we won't need a dedicated mobile solution/app.

The big problem with Tapatalk has been that they hijack so much of the mobile experience that they really push themselves down the throat of your users...and ultimately take away the forum's ability to make their own choices and control the experience. For instance, they choose the ads to display to our users in app. And they also try to drive our users into signing up for Tapatalk accounts when it's not needed to use the app...but they don't make that clear when you're signing up.

 

[eman1200]

I poked around and like it. Easy transition. I don't see any major changes that made me say "oh I see why they chose this" but maybe those are on the backend. Of course you'll get some complaints but I like it and it really didn't take much to figure out the new stuff. Looking forward to it.

I do like the 'like' feature cause there have been many times someone said something funny or helpful but didn't fully warrant a response so I see using that often.

 

[jason]

I poked around and like it. Easy transition. I don't see any major changes that made me say "oh I see why they chose this" but maybe those are on the backend. Of course you'll get some complaints but I like it and it really didn't take much to figure out the new stuff. Looking forward to it.

I do like the 'like' feature cause there have been many times someone said something funny or helpful but didn't fully warrant a response so I see using that often.

Mobile was one of the biggest. Did you pull it up on your phone to see how the experience changes?

Another was "not using 10 year old software on the internet".

 

[eman1200]

I'll try to check mobile today.

 

[gprellwitz]

My testing is on my iPhone 6. Generally impressed so far (after 10 minutes )
- Don't use "addicted" as a badge. Too easy to be misinterpreted. "Devoted" or "fanatical"? (Just not "religious fanatic!"
- Tone down the horizontal rule between the post author and the message, and perhaps de-emphasize the post author. Smaller font, slightly less contrast, slightly different background color? Make it blend in with message itself?
- I predict we're going to have conversations around the "like" button on threads like plane crashes.

 

[mscard88]

OK, how does one get to it? How about providing a link if possible? Thanks.

 

[jason]

http://beta.pilotsofamerica.com/

Your existing username and password will log you right in on the beta site. No need to register or reset your password.

By the way, the import took place earlier this week. So everything over there will be a snapshot of content when I did the last import. New discussions over there will be there only and will all disappear when we do the final import.

View the public beta rules (first post in the thread) and be prepared for the banhammer if you cause any trouble over there.


EDIT:

Suggested first post to read:

http://beta.pilotsofamerica.com/com...rent-changed-from-vbulletin-to-xenforo.90239/

Thanks to Troy for compiling this list!

 

[Bob Noel]

Unfortunate that the ignored threads don't get moved over.

 

[SkyHog]

We haven't finalized that yet. We wanted to ask our members for help making that decision. So far, the feedback is that the responsive design works so well on mobile that we won't need a dedicated mobile solution/app.

The big problem with Tapatalk has been that they hijack so much of the mobile experience that they really push themselves down the throat of your users...and ultimately take away the forum's ability to make their own choices and control the experience. For instance, they choose the ads to display to our users in app. And they also try to drive our users into signing up for Tapatalk accounts when it's not needed to use the app...but they don't make that clear when you're signing up.

If you're soliciting votes, I vote that you leave the virus out of the software, and let Tapatalk find an alternate means of downgrading the overall internet browsing experience for those that choose not use to use it.

A very harsh way of saying (nay, pleading): let Tapatalk die the horrible death it so deserves.

 

[SkyHog]

Mobile was one of the biggest. Did you pull it up on your phone to see how the experience changes?

Another was "not using 10 year old software on the internet".

The mobile experience is amazing, IMHO. So is the picture embedding feature. Those two alone make me want to wet my pants when I create a new post.

Gone are the days of going to a different screen to upload a photo, then copy the attachment link, then go back to the original post and embed it using an IMG tag.

Now, its like 2 clicks from the same screen. Yeehaw!

 

[jason]

Unfortunate that the ignored threads don't get moved over.

Ok, so...ignored threads have been a big topic during our closed beta...so I'll bite.

I don't get the purpose of migrating ignored threads. First, shouldn't threads that you ignored months ago now be dead? What is the ratio of threads ignored to threads still living? It can't be more than a couple per person. Just click ignore again.

Also, I did run some stats on ignored thread usage when we were discussing the functionality. It's a teeny tiny subset of our overall user base. I'll see if I can find the stats that I put together. I guess...overall...it wasn't worth the 2-3 hours of time it would have taken me to put together a migration. I'm willing to be told that I'm wrong in that decision though...


EDIT: Ok, I found the stats that I pulled together on ignored threads.

I just want to put this into perspective. We have a grand total of 131 users who have ignored threads. Of those 131 users, 45 have only ignored one thread and another 21 users have only ignored two threads.

89 users have less or equal to five ignores.
100 users have less or equal to ten ignores.

There have been a total of 8,273 threads ignored (6,504 unique threads...since sometimes multiple users ignore the same thread) .

Again, the data just didn't prove that it was a useful use of my time. Maybe I'll backfill once we've moved.

All of that said, thanks for the feedback! We're doing our best to balance old and new.

 

[jason]

If you're soliciting votes, I vote that you leave the virus out of the software, and let Tapatalk find an alternate means of downgrading the overall internet browsing experience for those that choose not use to use it.

A very harsh way of saying (nay, pleading): let Tapatalk die the horrible death it so deserves.

Not that you feel strongly or anything...

 

[SkyHog]

Ok, so...ignored threads have been a big topic during our closed beta...so I'll bite.

I don't get the purpose of migrating ignored threads. First, shouldn't threads that you ignored months ago now be dead? What is the ratio of threads ignored to threads still living? It can't be more than a couple per person. Just click ignore again.

Also, I did run some stats on ignored thread usage when we were discussing the functionality. It's a teeny tiny subset of our overall user base. I'll see if I can find the stats that I put together. I guess...overall...it wasn't worth the 2-3 hours of time it would have taken me to put together a migration. I'm willing to be told that I'm wrong in that decision though...

I hold an unpopular position (it also applied to the existence of Spin Zone, to take it for what its worth): If you don't want to read a thread, don't click on it.

I will never understand the need for a thread ignore feature. I get user ignores, as they can troll threads that are otherwise useful, but if you don't care about the thread at all? Just move on.

But I know I am in the minority. I have no idea why its so hard for people to not click where they don't want to go.

 

[alfadog]

Oiy, trophies. Could do without those.

 

[alfadog]

It seems like there's a bigger space to write your reply on the phone so that's a better thing.

 

[Bob Noel]

I hold an unpopular position (it also applied to the existence of Spin Zone, to take it for what its worth): If you don't want to read a thread, don't click on it.

I will never understand the need for a thread ignore feature. I get user ignores, as they can troll threads that are otherwise useful, but if you don't care about the thread at all? Just move on.

But I know I am in the minority. I have no idea why its so hard for people to not click where they don't want to go.

Sometimes the thread title can be offensive (probably more an issue when POA had the forum that cannot be named)

Sometimes it's annoying to pollute the display with the multitude of threads on idiotic juvenile subjects (like the monkey, or someone's package, or the like)

Using your own logic, no one is requiring you to use the ignore thread function but why do you feel the need to disparage someone's desire to use it?

 

[SkyHog]

Using your own logic, no one is requiring you to use the ignore thread function but why do you feel the need to disparage someone's desire to use it?

That is a very fair counter position.

My only response would be that if it is a pain to migrate the settings, it wouldn't be worth it. But - that is only my take. As I said, I recognize that I don't hold the majority opinion. I think it in my very nature to make things as easy as possible absent a compelling reason to make things more complicated.

It is my cross to bear.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

http://beta.pilotsofamerica.com/

Your existing username and password will log you right in on the beta site. No need to register or reset your password.

By the way, the import took place earlier this week. So everything over there will be a snapshot of content when I did the last import. New discussions over there will be there only and will all disappear when we do the final import.

View the public beta rules (first post in the thread) and be prepared for the banhammer if you cause any trouble over there.

Suggested first post to read, when you head on over to the new beta site:

http://beta.pilotsofamerica.com/com...rent-changed-from-vbulletin-to-xenforo.90239/

 

[LDJones]

Kudos to all involved in keeping POA alive and well despite some of the recent "challenges". I know it's a lot of working to keep things rolling. Your effort is appreciated.

 

[timwinters]

If you don't want to read a thread, don't click on it.

I will never understand the need for a thread ignore feature.

I have no idea why its so hard for people to not click where they don't want to go.

Because, if you frequently use the "new post" button to browse like I do, then the threads you have no interest in pollute that list.

There are many threads that, once I read the first few posts, I place on ignore because:

1) I have no interest in the topic.
2) It's complete nonsense (the "next word" thread is an example).
3) It digresses into a pizzing contest between our notorious pizzers.
4) etc.

It's nice for all those threads to be excluded from the list. It's not about "not being able to resist clicking on them". It's all about separating the chaff from the wheat.

Now, if I understand what Jason's saying, the "ignore thread" feature will still be there, it's just that threads you had ignored on the old site will reappear on the new site. That's not an issue in my opinion and I likely have more threads on ignore than just about anyone...100's of them.

 

[Bob Noel]

btw - notice I said "unfortunate" that the ignore threads weren't migrated.

I chose the word deliberately.

 

[jason]

btw - notice I said "unfortunate" that the ignore threads weren't migrated.

I chose the word deliberately.

You bet. I appreciate you even checking. I was just wanting to let you know that it was a deliberate choice and why that choice was made.

Ping me on the other side and I might cobble together some kind of an import script.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Is there going to be a new live chat?

 

[jason]

Is there going to be a new live chat?

As of right now, yes. It'll just come after the move. One major project at a time.

 

[Mtns2Skies]

As of right now, yes. It'll just come after the move. One major project at a time.

Thanks! - Thanks for all your hard work on this too - and suffering through the feedback!

 

[JoeSelch]

Suggested first post to read, when you head on over to the new beta site:

http://beta.pilotsofamerica.com/com...rent-changed-from-vbulletin-to-xenforo.90239/

Thanks, Troy!
That was a helpful read. Nice to have a mapping of old to new.

 

[flhrci]

I like the new site but the color scheme/font is a little harder to read on the 40 inch LCD tv. Its brighter for sure. Wouldn't mind seeing the same color scheme from vBulletin carried over.

David

 

[Ravioli]

Rip off the bandaid and use the new site.

As the all-knowing Timwinters points out -- if you want a free site with your own rules and software you're more than welcome to go start one.

If his logic survives his typing the MC can change software daily and he's not out a penny.

Oh... dang, I gotta get back to ignoring what I'm ignoring. But I'll be certain to let you know when you're being ignored. -meh

 

[timwinters]

As the all-knowing Timwinters points out --

If you only knew how difficult it is to be a monotheistic entity. As if being omniscient wasn't tough enough, try adding omnipotent and omnipresent to the mix.

A mere mortal like you will never understand.

 

[denverpilot]

I'll throw the pro-Tapatalk arguments in here but I really don't care deeply -- but I think the vehement emotions about it from someone who doesn't use it is a little weird...

- Provides an aggregator on mobile device for multiple forums. I have 13 forums in it right now and do all of my forum activity via it on mobile.

- Provides Notification options for iOS users (don't know for Android) meaning if I tag something as I want a notification on it (like private messages) I get an iOS notification if those things get updates. Raw web will not support that and if I have to go back to having email that would be a backward step. Also provides more options for that than XF provides. (Down to the thread level.)

- I really LIKE how XF handles mobile but it's still nowhere near as screen real-estate austere as Tapatalk. I can see five or six or more posts in the sizes TT uses and only a few on raw native XF. Call it my old penchant for USENET and text... I don't need the eye candy. I want to see the words.

- I paid for TT long ago so I don't see advertising. Understand showing users ads the MC has no control over is a minimal concern.

- Image attachment is SO MUCH BETTER in XF but it was a major PITA in the existing site from iOS so again, long ago I bought unlimited image hosting from TT and attach via their built in and let it do the link in the post. Both good and bad here but I can live with the new mobile support on XF.

- Color scheme: I choose my color scheme on TT and I don't have to care in the slightest what the site chooses. I like that. I use a very dark white on dark grey for everything. Can't do that with raw web and keep everyone happy.

- I hate that new TT users don't notice they can turn off the TT signature but I did long ago. It's a bit annoying but changeable if folks pay attention.

- Don't see the secondary naming system on TT. I see users real account names only. Sometimes a minor pain when folks refer to others by their secondary screen name. (Isn't one alias hiding your real name enough? LOL)

- Killing it: PoA would simply disappear from TT? People do find forums (well at least non aviation ones) via their search engine. I've found four of the other forums I frequent via TT or else I would have never found them.

- When I do find a forum I'm interested in, the first thing I do is search for it in TT to add it. If they don't support it, it's a turn off for me on a NEW to me forum. I'll probably not come back.

The aggregation and notification are at the top of this off the cuff list because those would be missed the most if TT goes away.

PoA is probably the only forum I would "put up with" leaving TT. Any other of my forums drop it, if never bother visiting. I just open TT when I have time to mess around and start with "New" posts there. Then when I've read everything I want to read I mark all as non-new and I'm all set for the next round sometime later. Having to go to 13 sites would be unruly and I'd never do it.

For me it's about the information and not about how pretty it looks on a website. I honestly wouldn't care if the only interface any forum had was NNTP. I've been using aggregators for that and RSS for over a decade. I *start* at the aggregator, not the individual websites, except when first finding a forum or news source.

(By the way XF has RSS support which makes no damned sense on a forum. But whatever. It's not a news site. Someone hacked it in because they thought it was cool I suppose.)

It's likely if I have to open PoA in a browser I'll be reading it a whole lot less often. I'll read the sites that support TT first and then PoA becomes an afterthought. Probably make a bookmark for it and see if I can get it to show up in all six devices browsers and on some devices, in three browsers, in a "standard way", but if I can't make that fairly clean, I will only bother going to PoA on the devices that make it a two click operation. TT is one click from open to reading. Opening a browser and then a website is always two.

All of the above are First World Problems... Take with whatever grain of salt you like. I'm just making the TT case.

I've already shared some of this with Jason privately before. Just putting the arguments in public.

If TT tends to break XF, I understand that PITA as an admin and would avoid it. If it's not that bad to add it, I don't think it does any particular harm (other than the annoying signature thing when people don't turn it off) to PoA. If anything, it adds a way to find the place and access it in a standard way that works with other places.

Perhaps folks like web interfaces. I honestly don't. They're always a trade off between what browsers were supposed to do, and using them for data entry while trying to make them look as good as a native app in name-your-OS.

Aggregation rocks. There's no way around that. I'm not a "keep 100 tabs open all the time in all browsers" type of browser user. The devs here and younger folks like that. They scream when they have to reboot their browsers. Ha.

 

[Ravioli]

If you only knew how difficult it is to be a monotheistic entity. As if being omniscient wasn't tough enough, try adding omnipotent and omnipresent to the mix.

A mere mortal like you will never understand.

I'm not sure we have the same definition of monotheistic. Now, being omnipotent and omnipresent seems to be possible.

The fact remains that you have some notion that you can tell ME that the MC can run the forum as they please, but YOU can complain about your precious ignore function that you seem incapable of using without commenting.

So... I would like them to Ignore your request to replicate your ignoring.

And I'll renew my request that you ignore things in accordance with the meaning of the word.

from the dictionary:
ig·nore iɡˈnôr/
verb
refuse to take notice of or acknowledge; disregard intentionally.
"he ignored her outraged question"
synonyms: disregard, take no notice of, pay no attention to, pay no heed to; More
fail to consider (something significant).

Point is, commenting on something belies the meaning of ignoring it.

 

[SkyHog]

I'll throw the pro-Tapatalk arguments in here but I really don't care deeply -- but I think the vehement emotions about it from someone who doesn't use it is a little weird...

But that's just it - it is those of that that don't use it that are most affected. You see - TapaTalk has this fantastic feature, where it throws popups periodically to tell you how great it is, and to convince you to download it. Doesn't sound bad, unless you realize that every site you visit that has TapaTalk does the same thing, unless you allow cookies. What that means, for example, is when searching for say "GSXR 1000 Stator Cover," you will find a list of a bunch of forums through google. Each one pops the following up:

So that means that before you can ever see the content you are looking for, you are presented with a popup ad. And you can't block it.

It is a fun reminder of what the internet looked like in the early 2000s. And it all happens because the developers of TapaTalk have no scruples or ethics and push their product without remorse for the ruin it causes to the basic browsing experience.

So any site, including POA, should do what it can to stop the scourge, and elevate the internet back to where it should be.

 

[denverpilot]

But that's just it - it is those of that that don't use it that are most affected. You see - TapaTalk has this fantastic feature, where it throws popups periodically to tell you how great it is, and to convince you to download it. Doesn't sound bad, unless you realize that every site you visit that has TapaTalk does the same thing, unless you allow cookies. What that means, for example, is when searching for say "GSXR 1000 Stator Cover," you will find a list of a bunch of forums through google. Each one pops the following up:

So that means that before you can ever see the content you are looking for, you are presented with a popup ad. And you can't block it.



It is a fun reminder of what the internet looked like in the early 2000s. And it all happens because the developers of TapaTalk have no scruples or ethics and push their product without remorse for the ruin it causes to the basic browsing experience.



So any site, including POA, should do what it can to stop the scourge, and elevate the internet back to where it should be.

I've never seen the pop up on PoA on a mobile browser. Just tried it again and nope. No splash page.

Sounds like those other forums don't know how to disable it, which really is somewhat meaningless to the whether or not to use it here discussion.

Apparently the forums you're searching info from are run by morons? Hehehe.