Excessive bounced landings... what was wrong?

[nickmatic]

Looking to learn from recent experience. I'm a low time (~114 hours) private pilot, VFR only. I've actually been away from flying for a many years, so only about 25 of those hours are recent including a few spent getting a BFR done to get back in the air. Still a lot to learn.

I should also note that I did all my training in Cessnas and am now flying Warriors since my BFR. About 25 hours in type. I've never felt like I grease every landing, but they've all been very safe.

So the other day I did a trip with stops at KBID and KMTP before returning to KFRG where I'm based. I had 3 other people with me and about 40-50lbs of luggage in the luggage area of the Warrior. I loaded 42 gal of fuel to set the W+B about 40lbs under gross. Fortunately, my passengers were light.

On final, I had to use all the nose down trim. Surprising, but ok... I've never flown with that much luggage in the back before.

The big problem: Literally all my landings that day were a bouncy roller coaster ride. I had to make 2 go-around attempts each time before getting the plane on the ground marginally safely each time. Kind of scary, actually.

This video will give an idea of what I probably looked like (except for the gear collapse part at the end, thankfully). No joke. It was wild.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY

I spoke to my CFI (who wasn't present) and he suggested maybe I was too fast and/or flaring too high and/or not pulling back enough, possibly touching on the nosewheel first.

I reviewed my approaches using cloudahoy (cool app) and it showed me at 70-75kts on final, which is what I was shooting for. While that might be faster than necessary, would that be too fast with the rearward CG? Normally the Warrior basically lands itself...

I should mention that before this flight, my last 2 flights were in a Mooney, working on my complex endorsement. It lands faster and a little differently, so I might have been trying to land the Warrior like the Mooney.

Anyone seen this before? Really want to learn from this experience. I'll be going up again for landing practice soon as well. I need to go back to school.

Thanks,
Nicholas

 

[asechrest]

I'm not experienced enough to know whether your more aftward CG affected things. But in my extraordinarily limited experience, my wild landings are almost universally due to too much speed.

I'll wait for the more experienced to chime in.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Welcome to PoA. We're a friendly and opinionated bunch here. You'll get answers right away.

Several of the CFIs will probably chime in here, so I won' try to answer your question.

 

[somorris]

Welcome Nickmatic. I'm not a CFI either, so take anything I say with a grain of salt .

I agree you were probably too fast. I also don't think the aft CG was your problem. With so much weight, you may have been coming down (vertical speed) a little faster than you are used to and didn't get the nose high enough, soon enough. Need to slow down more though. Hold the nose up until it quits flying. It won't bounce like that then.

 

[nickmatic]

Thanks! I just found the board and have been reading helpful posts for a while.

Yeah I bet someone here has been in this exact scenario...

Welcome to PoA. We're a friendly and opinionated bunch here. You'll get answers right away.

Several of the CFIs will probably chime in here, so I won' try to answer your question.

 

[nickmatic]

Thanks, yeah, maybe I'm not being careful enough with the approach speed. I just looked up the numbers and 1.3 x Vso is 57kts. I'm sure I was no lower than 69 and probably more like 72 on average most of the way down.

I think my instructor said a slower approach is better with higher weight, though I'm not sure why that is.

Welcome Nickmatic. I'm not a CFI either, so take anything I say with a grain of salt .

I agree you were probably too fast. I also don't think the aft CG was your problem. With so much weight, you may have been coming down (vertical speed) a little faster than you are used to and didn't get the nose high enough, soon enough. Need to slow down more though. Hold the nose up until it quits flying. It won't bounce like that then.

 

[Clark1961]

A taper wing PA-28 isn't particularly difficult to land but it certainly won't "land itself" Dunno what you have been doing or what you did on the last flight. Full nose down trim I can't imagine. Never been close - the stab has a lot of pitch authority an generally trim stays near neutral. I have seen the trim indicator out of whack so that it indicated incorrectly. Easy fix for an A&P.

All that said, I've seen a taper wing bounce with PIO when landed flat. It's ugly. Moral of the story is don't ever land flat. Fly final at 1.3*Vso, get your butt about 3.5 feet off the ground, make sure the throttle is at idle, and keep pulling on the yoke trying to keep yer butt at 3.5 ft. The landing will be beautiful in a PA-28 or a Mooney or even a Cezzna w/no bounce.

Prolly the best advise is load the warrior similarly with ballast including a CFI and go do touch-n-goes...

 

[tmyers]

I am trying to visualize four people on board with 42 gallons fuel and 40 - 50# of baggage in a Warrior. Must be very small people. Even in my Arrow all would need to be under 175#

 

[nickmatic]

ok... good feedback. Not sure why I needed so much nose down trim, but I definitely hit the stop and it was just enough. Of course, if I was fast on approach then I guess it was too much.

So I'm thinking high approach speed plus too much nose down trim meant I didn't flare enough and landed flat or close to it, without realizing it.

I think the piper has a higher instrument panel than the Mooney I was just flying, so I may have felt I was pitched up more than I was.

A taper wing PA-28 isn't particularly difficult to land but it certainly won't "land itself" Dunno what you have been doing or what you did on the last flight. Full nose down trim I can't imagine. Never been close - the stab has a lot of pitch authority an generally trim stays near neutral. I have seen the trim indicator out of whack so that it indicated incorrectly. Easy fix for an A&P.

All that said, I've seen a taper wing bounce with PIO when landed flat. It's ugly. Moral of the story is don't ever land flat. Fly final at 1.3*Vso, get your butt about 3.5 feet off the ground, make sure the throttle is at idle, and keep pulling on the yoke trying to keep yer butt at 3.5 ft. The landing will be beautiful in a PA-28 or a Mooney or even a Cezzna w/no bounce.

Prolly the best advise is load the warrior similarly with ballast including a CFI and go do touch-n-goes...

 

[nickmatic]

Yeah, I was the heavy one at 170. Two ladies at 130 and a short guy at 140. I added 7lbs to each for clothes.

I am trying to visualize four people on board with 42 gallons fuel and 40 - 50# of baggage in a Warrior. Must be very small people. Even in my Arrow all would need to be under 175#

 

[asechrest]

ok... good feedback. Not sure why I needed so much nose down trim, but I definitely hit the stop and it was just enough. Of course, if I was fast on approach then I guess it was too much.

So I'm thinking high approach speed plus too much nose down trim meant I didn't flare enough and landed flat or close to it, without realizing it.

I think the piper has a higher instrument panel than the Mooney I was just flying, so I may have felt I was pitched up more than I was.

Sight picture is an interesting thing. You really get used to one, and a change in sight picture can mess you up.

I switched from a 172 with 30 degrees of flaps to one with 40, and landed nose first on my first landing. It was surprising how much it affected me.

 

[nickmatic]

Makes me feel a little better First chance I get I'll jump in the Mooney and then the Warrior on the ground and compare.

Sight picture is an interesting thing. You really get used to one, and a change in sight picture can mess you up.

I switched from a 172 with 30 degrees of flaps to one with 40, and landed nose first on my first landing. It was surprising how much it affected me.

 

[Silvaire]

I can't fathom why you would need full nose down trim on landing approach. Something is definitely wrong with this picture.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Just look ALL THE WAY down the runway, pretend there is a ratchet on the yoke and when you pull back you cant push it back in.

If you float, just hold the yoke where it is and wait for her to start coming back down, then start easing back slightly to HOLD HER OFF, dont think of it as a flair, just, with the power out, try to hold it 1 inch of the runway for as long as you can.

 

[poadeleted20]

The #1 cause of bounced landings and porpoising is too much speed on final and/or insufficient patience and delicacy in the flare -- IOW, just what your instructor said, and 70-75 knots on final is too much speed in a Warrior. Slow down to 60-65 using full flaps, and you should have much better results.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

The #1 cause of bounced landings and porpoising is too much speed on final and/or insufficient patience and delicacy in the flare -- IOW, just what your instructor said, and 70-75 knots on final is too much speed in a Warrior. Slow down to 60-65 using full flaps, and you should have much better results.

How does too much speed cause PIO on landing??

You burn more runway, but I don't see excessive speed causing a PIO

 

[Brad Z]

How does too much speed cause PIO on landing??

You burn more runway, but I don't see excessive speed causing a PIO

Pilot induced oscillations come from trying to force a plane to land before its ready to stop flying, which was clearly wht the pilot of the video was trying to do. Excess speed requires more time/runway to slow down to appropriate landing speeds.

I agree with Ron....slow down your approach and let the plane settle down on the runway. If anything, the extra weight and slightly rearward COG should make it easier to land smoothly.

BTW OP, did you do a W&B, and if so, where did you end in in the W&B envelope?

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Not causing a PIO is more a technique thing then a speed thing IMO

 

[Banjo33]

Not causing a PIO is more a technique thing then a speed thing IMO

Absolutely, but the subsequent float following a too fast approach causes an inexperienced (inpatient) pilot to want to help the airplane get on the ground. Relax too much or push slightly forward and the nose touches first = porpoise. He should either slow his approach speed which will allow the aircraft to touch down sooner OR fly the approach fast (the way he has been doing it) and accept and be patient with the long float that results by continuing to hold the nose off until the plane settles on its own. The danger with that of course is that you're now flying down the runway for a longer amount of time at a speed close to stall or having to correct for a balloon resulting from pulling back too much or too quickly. Also, to the op, I agree with checking your nose attitude. A Warrior tends to require a little higher pitch attitude that may slightly obstruct your ability to see the far end of the runway, when beginning your flare. If you're setting an attitude in the flare that allows you to see the end runway, then your pitch attitude is likely flat or even slightly nose low, which is a recipe for a porpoise.

 

[Banjo33]

When my club bought its Cherokee, I found this website that I offered some really good tips regarding the series.

http://www.pilotfriend.com/training/flight_training/fxd_wing/piperpa28.htm

 

[AuntPeggy]

The #1 cause of bounced landings and porpoising is too much speed on final and/or insufficient patience and delicacy in the flare -- IOW, just what your instructor said, and 70-75 knots on final is too much speed in a Warrior. Slow down to 60-65 using full flaps, and you should have much better results.

Were you doing knots, or mph?

 

[jspilot]

What had me concerned here is the full nose down trim part. One of the airplanes I fly requires an incredible amount of nose down trim with only me on board to maintain level flight other wise the thing loves to climb! My experience with landing with a large amount of nose down trim is it actually impacts the sight picture because the plane is pitched nose down because of the trim. It makes the required back pressure uncomfortable and I have learned to not attempt to land with an excessive nose down trim. Once I enter the pattern, I now always pull out a considerable amount of the nose down trim I had to have for level flight.

I'm based near the OP and I have to say that those two airports ( block island and montauk) have pretty short runways so I'm glad you and the passengers were safe. I'd encourage you to not land with full nose down trim ever again.

 

[mondtster]

I can't fathom why you would need full nose down trim on landing approach. Something is definitely wrong with this picture.

The only times I've heard of people needing full nose down trim were when people had their CG aft of the limits. Could this be the case here?

 

[poadeleted20]

How does too much speed cause PIO on landing??

You burn more runway, but I don't see excessive speed causing a PIO

Happens all the time. The pilot's lack of patience waiting for the speed to bleed off leads to pulling the nose up and ballooning. The pilot then overcontrols nose down to stop climbing, followed by a yank to prevent the nosewheel from smacking the runway. Repeat as necessary until the plane stalls and flops to the runway from 20 feet in the air, or the nosewheel slams the runway and collapses, or (if we're lucky) the pilot pushes the throttle full forward and goes around.

 

[poadeleted20]

Were you doing knots, or mph?

The OP said "kts," and not many Warriors have mph-primary airspeed indicators.

 

[nickmatic]

Thanks everyone for all the feedback. So it definitely seems like it's a combination of excessive speed and my idea of the correct sight profile being off due to having just flown the Mooney.

And as someone mentioned, two of the runways are on the short side so I was probably unconsciously eager to get the plane on the ground.

This could have ended pretty badly (like the vid). At least I thought to add power and go around a couple times.

I attached the weight and balance.

 

[Sac Arrow]

The only times I've heard of people needing full nose down trim were when people had their CG aft of the limits. Could this be the case here?

I don't know, but here's something bizarre: When I land my Arrow, the trim ends up being slightly forward of neutral. Every time I take the plane after the Other Guy has flown it, the trim is nearly all the way forward and I'm pretty sure he doesn't normally fly with any significant load in the back.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Thanks everyone for all the feedback. So it definitely seems like it's a combination of excessive speed and my idea of the correct sight profile being off due to having just flown the Mooney.

And as someone mentioned, two of the runways are on the short side so I was probably unconsciously eager to get the plane on the ground.

This could have ended pretty badly (like the vid). At least I thought to add power and go around a couple times.

I attached the weight and balance.

Also one thing I've noticed, having flown both, is tapered wing Pipers are more critical of airspeed than straight wing Pipers - they tend to float more on landing. My tapered wing Turbo Arrow required a touchdown at exactly the right airspeed or it wouldn't flare properly unless there were a couple passengers in the back. Straight wing Cherokees and Arrows seem to do okay carrying five or so excess knots on touchdown.

 

[Dan Thomas]

Not causing a PIO is more a technique thing then a speed thing IMO

Porpoising would be a better term for it. The nosewheel hits first in a too-fast touchdown, bouncing the nose back into the air. The pilot tends to push forward to get the nose down, and it hits again. It can escalate until the nosegear breaks.

Dan

 

[Brad Z]

I'm based near the OP and I have to say that those two airports ( block island and montauk) have pretty short runways so I'm glad you and the passengers were safe. I'd encourage you to not land with full nose down trim ever again.

I didn't put two and two together. Compared to FRG, BID and MTP have very short runways. No wonder he was trying to force the plane down on the runway after smoking over the threshold with the end of the runway quickly approaching.

My recommendation to the OP is to go up with an(other) instructor, get some weight in the back seats and cargo area to get it to gross weight, and go out and do some slow flight and stalls at altitude to get comfortable flying the airplane at low speeds. After that, go back to FRG and fly slow flight at 5ft AGL over the runway in landing configuration. Do this a few times and your landings will be a 1000% better.

 

[dell30rb]

Not causing a PIO is more a technique thing then a speed thing IMO

Sure. But here's the deal, pilots are used to rounding out, cutting power and then setting the plane down after a few seconds of flare. For some of those newer pilots who don't quite get the whole attitude thing, they might come in with a lot of speed, cut power, 'flare' and then after a few seconds, try and put it down on the runway like usual. Only they came in fast, so the plane is still level - they land flat and bounce

 

[dell30rb]

Thanks everyone for all the feedback. So it definitely seems like it's a combination of excessive speed and my idea of the correct sight profile being off due to having just flown the Mooney.

And as someone mentioned, two of the runways are on the short side so I was probably unconsciously eager to get the plane on the ground.

This could have ended pretty badly (like the vid). At least I thought to add power and go around a couple times.

I attached the weight and balance.

That's a pretty good summary of it. Loaded to gross in the warrior II's I will do about 65 on final slowing to 60 over the fence.

I've flown them several times at gross and max aft CG. The plane handles very differently at that CG, something you must be aware of.

 

[nickmatic]

Sounds about right... Since a lot of my experience is 16 years ago and in Cessnas, I'm definitely a noob.

Sure. But here's the deal, pilots are used to rounding out, cutting power and then setting the plane down after a few seconds of flare. For some of those newer pilots who don't quite get the whole attitude thing, they might come in with a lot of speed, cut power, 'flare' and then after a few seconds, try and put it down on the runway like usual. Only they came in fast, so the plane is still level - they land flat and bounce

 

[nickmatic]

Spot on advice, thanks. It's funny, during my initial flight training everything else was spot on but I had a little trouble learning to land. I remember spending a few extra hours just focusing on landings. So I should probably get some more instruction in that department.

My recommendation to the OP is to go up with an(other) instructor, get some weight in the back seats and cargo area to get it to gross weight, and go out and do some slow flight and stalls at altitude to get comfortable flying the airplane at low speeds. After that, go back to FRG and fly slow flight at 5ft AGL over the runway in landing configuration. Do this a few times and your landings will be a 1000% better.

 

[Silvaire]

The only times I've heard of people needing full nose down trim were when people had their CG aft of the limits. Could this be the case here?

In cruise yes but in a properly rigged aircraft the horizontal stab is exerting a downforce. this is why, when you pull the power, the nose drops. I can't figure why you would need to crank in nose down trim with power off and on approach.

It doesn't make sense to me

 

[nickmatic]

I think because I was misjudging the proper attitude. But it is odd... Was I at full nose UP trim and just have it confused in my head?

In cruise yes but in a properly rigged aircraft the horizontal stab is exerting a downforce. this is why, when you pull the power, the nose drops. I can't figure why you would need to crank in nose down trim with power off and on approach.

It doesn't make sense to me

 

[dell30rb]

In cruise yes but in a properly rigged aircraft the horizontal stab is exerting a downforce. this is why, when you pull the power, the nose drops. I can't figure why you would need to crank in nose down trim with power off and on approach.

It doesn't make sense to me

Agreed... perhaps it was full nose up. Or you thought you hit the stop, but didn't.

 

[MAKG1]

I can't fathom why you would need full nose down trim on landing approach. Something is definitely wrong with this picture.

I can't explain it unless the CG was excessively aft. It IS pretty far aft, but your weights would put it in-bounds.

40-50 lb luggage for four people is not very much. Are you sure it wasn't more than that?

And, you're fast. Loaded to gross and with a forward CG, a Warrior likes to approach at 65 with full flap. No more. That's the fastest approach speed you should ever need, excepting heavy gusty headwinds.

 

[nickmatic]

Yeah now I'm doubting my memory. But I'm pretty certain it was nose down. Maybe there's a kink in the trim wires and it snagged early... I remember thinking it was odd that it wouldn't move any more but didn't have time on final to be messing with it.

Plus if it were full nose up trim, I would have had to really push the yoke to get it down. That was not the case.

Agreed... perhaps it was full nose up. Or you thought you hit the stop, but didn't.

 

[nickmatic]

Yeah speed is one clear factor for sure. Good lesson.

Pretty certain on the luggage weight. I weighed myself with my own bag: 7lbs extra. Later I compared my friends bags. One was heavier (guess about 15lbs max) and the other two were much lighter. Plus a tow bar and tiedowns in the back. I left the plane cover on the ground.

I've been trying to be really thorough on preflight planning since I started flying again to learn as much as I can. I don't want to take anything for granted.

I can't explain it unless the CG was excessively aft. It IS pretty far aft, but your weights would put it in-bounds.

40-50 lb luggage for four people is not very much. Are you sure it wasn't more than that?

And, you're fast. Loaded to gross and with a forward CG, a Warrior likes to approach at 65 with full flap. No more. That's the fastest approach speed you should ever need, excepting heavy gusty headwinds.