Exception for ERAU Students ATP, only 1,000 hours

Complete and total horse excrement.
 
The ltd. ATP is available part 141 if you did you COM and INST in said program and are 21 years old.

Yes, this is what we expected in the American system of payment.
Purdue is frantically preparing to become a part 141 school.
 
bbchien said:
The ltd. ATP is available part 141 if you did you COM and INST in said program and are 21 years old.

Yes, this is what we expected in the American system of payment.
Purdue is frantically preparing to become a part 141 school.
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Yes, because 1250 hours of instructing at the local FBO is going to make a better airline pilot than a 4-year program designed to make airline pilots.
 
yea with 1250 hours at the FBO there is a chance they might get exposed to IMC conditions, flight on an IFR flight plan, the National Airspace System, flying more than 3 types of aircraft, flying on someone else's schedule, and all kinds of other real world experience that is difficult or impossible to get in the large university programs.
 
alfadog said:
Yes, because 1250 hours of instructing at the local FBO is going to make a better airline pilot than a 4-year program designed to make airline pilots.
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Which is why I think CFIs shouldn't be able to log PIC time that counts towards the 1500. Get real world experience. Like I don't know, flying around the entire country.
 
How many FBO's give their trainees training in regional jet systems via classroom, part-task trainers, and simulators? That's part of the program at the big 4-year schools like ERAU, UND, and MTSU.
 
alfadog said:
Yes, because 1250 hours of instructing at the local FBO is going to make a better airline pilot than a 4-year program designed to make airline pilots.
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I'd rather sit in the back with FBO dregs flying then Ridddle clowns. Guessing most here would agree.
It is great to see safety standards being variable depending on the customer. Provides faith in the folks that hand out permission to fly slips.:)
 
Ron Levy said:
How many FBO's give their trainees training in regional jet systems via classroom, part-task trainers, and simulators? That's part of the program at the big 4-year schools like ERAU, UND, and MTSU.
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How many of these classroom clowns get real world experience? Like actual, real life scenarios? It's still a video game with no real repercussions to screwing up. I'd rather have someone up front who aviated their way out of an actual emergency than someone who went through 100 simulated ones.
 
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Real world experience in industry is overlooked... in favor of university degrees. I think there is a university bubble that will soon burst. Academia is a big ugly monster and is trying to insert itself into every industry it possibly can, regardless of how poorly it fits.

Think about it - there is a degree for damn near everything these days.
 
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EdFred said:
Which is why I think CFIs shouldn't be able to log PIC time that counts towards the 1500. Get real world experience. Like I don't know, flying around the entire country.
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So, as a CFI are you logging said time or not logging it?

David
 
flhrci said:
So, as a CFI are you logging said time or not logging it?

David
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I'm logging it as the regulations allow, but I also have it logged specifically as CFI-PIC time in my electronic logbook. And if they changed the regs to say CFI-PIC time can't be used towards ratings, I would welcome it, and put a line of code in my database to not count it.
 
I see a newbie from ERAU popping in here soon with a poll for us to take on this subject..:rolleyes::eek::nono:
 
EdFred said:
I'm logging it as the regulations allow, but I also have it logged specifically as CFI-PIC time in my electronic logbook. And if they changed the regs to say CFI-PIC time can't be used towards ratings, I would welcome it, and put a line of code in my database to not count it.
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Ok, I was just wondering.

Now, wouldn't CFI-PIC time be the same as dual given? or nearly?

David
 
EdFred said:
Which is why I think CFIs shouldn't be able to log PIC time that counts towards the 1500. Get real world experience. Like I don't know, flying around the entire country.
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It ain't going to work that way. Take away CFI PIC time counting for the 1,500 and the progression will change to banner towing up and down the same beach for 1,500 hours or flying jump planes up and down over the same airport. CFIing(outside of a college flight program) is more real world experience then most of the other low time flying jobs. Not counting that time is not going to change the market or wannabe pros ability to gain experience, no one is going to say poor kid your CFI time won't count, here fly my Kingair a couple of laps around the country.
 
flhrci said:
Ok, I was just wondering.

Now, wouldn't CFI-PIC time be the same as dual given? or nearly?

David
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Yes. I have a check box for the flight as to whether it was a commercial op, CFI op, or IFR flight. Easier to just exclude those flights from totals when it comes time to add them up.
 
ClimbnSink said:
It ain't going to work that way. Take away CFI PIC time counting for the 1,500 and the progression will change to banner towing up and down the same beach for 1,500 hours or flying jump planes up and down over the same airport. CFIing(outside of a college flight program) is more real world experience then most of the other low time flying jobs. Not counting that time is not going to change the market or wannabe pros ability to gain experience, no one is going to say poor kid your CFI time won't count, here fly my Kingair a couple of laps around the country.
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Blame the insurance companies for that. The progression *should* be, get your commercial, fly some banners or jumpers for a couple hundred hours. Then VFR charter ops, then small corporate/charter ops (< 8 seats) then move on to 1900s or Saabs, then RJs, then Boeing/Busses, then maybe start instructing. This industry is bass-ackwards.
 
Wow...typical hate the 4-year program Bull. Fact is, you can get your BS at everglades university while flying at any number of FBO's that are Part 141. Notice the rules say bachleors in a Aviation program.

You know how many hours I got at ERAU? 250...thats it just 250... ERAU is about pumping out grads with limited hours and a basic understanding of complex systems. I then spent the rest of my 750+ hours flight instructing at a REAL FBO/Part 141 school flying mediocre aircraft, in crummy actual conditions, and dealing with real emergencies just like every else.

If you want to direct your anger at ERAU, UND, etc you can direct it towards their CFI's...they dont have the "experiance" you refer to. BUT what they DO have is hundreds of hours being ground down to a pulp by constant qual checks, a rigid standardization program, a chief pilot who may or may not be a complete stickler for nit noid BS. I think that may actually qualify them to fit in perfectly as a FO with a limited ATP until they earn the right and gain real experiance to get the full-fledge unrestricted ATP. Does that make them a safer pilot than you? Absolutely not...but if you step back and think about the intent...this was a consession to the airlines to find "qualified" trainee's who have a chance of actually making it through the interview process, through the training courses, and into the seat in minimum time.

I think the real BS is the Part 141 training time you need in a sim (to qualify for this program)...which means even if you do qualify for a break (military, AS in aviation, Part 141 experiance, etc.) YOU STILL need to PAY for additional hours in a Level C/D sim to get the liscense. So much for trying to work for Part 61 schools or building time as a cargo/banner pilot. You still have to pay the $1500-2000 for the "privilage" to get the limited ATP.
 
All this poo flinging and hoop jumping...for a 30K job. That's the real sad part.
 
alfadog said:
Yes, because 1250 hours of instructing at the local FBO is going to make a better airline pilot than a 4-year program designed to make airline pilots.
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Yes it is, because they are FLYING A FRIKIN PLANE, that degree doesn't mean a damn thing in the air.

Logging time as a CFI is a good way to log time, it builds a good decision making skill set, I think its good prep for a FO in a way.

This is how you build hours, banner towing (if you have Tailwheel time, which most dont), pipeline, CFIing etc.

If in the Feds "wisdom" all carriers need a ATP, then it should be 1500 hours for EVERYONE.

I would imagine the HR folks might be asking if applicant got a 1000hr ATP or 1500 ATP, guessing they would go with the guy with the most FLIGHT EXPERIENCE, IMO
 
Insane, isn't it? They don't except military trained pilots . . . which is astonishing. Of course, they should have more than 1500 hours anyway when they become available but with the sequester, who knows now.

But if you pay to play, you get to play.

Not bashing anyone, but from everything I have heard the 4 year degree Part 141 stuff is the worst kind of cookie cutter lowest common denominator training . . . its what CAUSES accidents like AF447 and AS214. I know it is an over=generalization .. . but - well - ok.
 
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EdFred said:
Blame the insurance companies for that. The progression *should* be, get your commercial, fly some banners or jumpers for a couple hundred hours. Then VFR charter ops, then small corporate/charter ops (< 8 seats) then move on to 1900s or Saabs, then RJs, then Boeing/Busses, then maybe start instructing. This industry is bass-ackwards.
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135ops, most companies want at or near real ATP requirements for that type of work.

When I first started to fly I thought the same, you should only be able to CFI once you have mastered ones craft. However would you have been down to pay your CFI $150-250hr when you were getting your PPL?? And/or prove to them you are even worth their time to bother giving instuction to?

that's what your idea will lead to.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
135ops, most companies want at or near real ATP requirements for that type of work.

When I first started to fly I thought the same, you should only be able to CFI once you have mastered ones craft. However would you have been down to pay your CFI $150-250hr when you were getting your PPL?? And/or prove to them you are even worth their time to bother giving instuction to?

that's what your idea will lead to.
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Nope, and neither would anyone else. So they would drop their going rate to something someone would be willing to pay.
 
I would hate to be a younger pilot wanting to make it in a career flying anymore. Its going to be a real challenge to get anywhere now and the way academia is going- the only place that will make sense is going to be these larger (vastly more expensive) pump and dump programs. If you want to use "safety" as the reason to require many more hours to be an FO-fine! But that should be for everybody. A four year deg from ERAU should not trump hours in that realm.

Ron Levy said:
How many FBO's give their trainees training in regional jet systems via classroom, part-task trainers, and simulators? That's part of the program at the big 4-year schools like ERAU, UND, and MTSU.
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Not many, but who cares...you will get that at an airline as part of their training, and you don't need prior experience to be able to do it.
 
flyingmoose said:
Not many, but who cares...you will get that at an airline as part of their training, and you don't need prior experience to be able to do it.
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Have you ever trained the ones with no turboprop or jet experience during their transition to turbine-powered planes? I'd be willing to bet the answer is no, or you wouldn't have made that post.
 
wabower said:
Have you ever trained the ones with no turboprop or jet experience during their transition to turbine-powered planes? I'd be willing to bet the answer is no, or you wouldn't have made that post.
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These guys aren't getting jet/turboprop time they are getting college classes on procedure manuals.
 
wabower said:
Have you ever trained the ones with no turboprop or jet experience during their transition to turbine-powered planes? I'd be willing to bet the answer is no, or you wouldn't have made that post.
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Well I myself have been through both of those training programs and have seen it....and I stick by my statement.

Is it a challenge for flight instructors to make the transition to jets..sure can be. But does doing some FTD training at ERAU make that transition easier? Maybe, but I have seen them fail out the same.

Fact is-Many a pilot have went the airline route with no prior simulator experience and are still flying today, but you already knew that.
 
EdFred said:
Nope, and neither would anyone else. So they would drop their going rate to something someone would be willing to pay.
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Ok, so as Capt Bob with 25,000hrs, why on earth would I fly with some random dude off the street for 25-50 a hour, mess my schedule up just so you can get your PPL, I also get to have the risk of you F'ing up under my name and messing up everything i have built in my career, what possible incentive would I have to do that??
 
comanchepilot said:
Insane, isn't it? They don't except military trained pilots . . . which is astonishing. Of course, they should have more than 1500 hours anyway when they become available but with the sequester, who knows now.

But if you pay to play, you get to play.

Not bashing anyone, but from everything I have heard the 4 year degree Part 141 stuff is the worst kind of cookie cutter lowest common denominator training . . . its what CAUSES accidents like AF447 and AS214. I know it is an over=generalization .. . but - well - ok.
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Bull****. Military got a 750 hour exemption.

As for the 141 exemption for the restricted ATP, I think you'll find a good number of people who went to ERAU aren't eligible. You do any training at all outside of the program and you don't get it. So, if you're the excellent student who shows up at ERAU at 18 with a private, you've blown the whole advantage.
 
So your answer is no you haven't been involved in training them but you knew a guy who knew a guy?

I'll agree that it was different when the airlines could fill all their classes with ex-military guys and sims hadn't been invented, but neither condition currently exists. There's simply no substitute for training, and the earlier they start the better they'll be. Some will be better than others, but we already know that too.

flyingmoose said:
Well I myself have been through both of those training programs and have seen it....and I stick by my statement.

Is it a challenge for flight instructors to make the transition to jets..sure can be. But does doing some FTD training at ERAU make that transition easier? Maybe, but I have seen them fail out the same.

Fact is-Many a pilot have went the airline route with no prior simulator experience and are still flying today, but you already knew that.
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ClimbnSink said:
Sims don't count.
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Why not? Sims give you better training because you can do more things in a given time slot, not to mention stuff you can't do in an airplane.

Having said that, it has to be the right sim with the right sim instructor.
 
wabower said:
Name the airlines and corporate flight departments who agree with you.
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For college kids without an experience base? Why not do everything in the sim and skip the single engine ga time? Sounds like more air france/buffalo/sfo 777 pilots in the making.
 
ClimbnSink said:
For college kids without an experience base? Why not do everything in the sim and skip the single engine ga time? Sounds like more air france/buffalo/sfo 777 pilots in the making.
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Now you are kind of being silly. No one is suggesting "Zero to Hero" exclusively with simulator time.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Now you are kind of being silly. No one is suggesting "Zero to Hero" exclusively with simulator time.
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I know. I'm doubting the effectiveness of big airplane sim training for very low time pilots.
 
Oh, I didn't know you wanted to do the cross-country training in the sim instead of the basics. Maybe we could get them to load it on a truck and put a GPS antenna on top of the cab.

ClimbnSink said:
For college kids without an experience base? Why not do everything in the sim and skip the single engine ga time? Sounds like more air france/buffalo/sfo 777 pilots in the making.
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