Everyone should be taught how to do spins and spin recovery.

Thousand of pilots safety fly every year and never spin there aircraft and never stall the aicraft unless they are intentionally doing so. I guess in some pilots worlds it is a miracle. As a rather long in the tooth CFI who has done a lot of primary and recurrent training, spin training is a waste of training dollars that are more effectively utilized on other skills.

Maybe for you guys who like spins, you are far over confident. I guess you can invite a camera crew out to document your spin recovery technique in the pattern at 1000 agl.

My last post on this topic, feel free to convince the FAA otherwise.
 
Clip4 said:
My last post on this topic, feel free to convince the FAA otherwise.
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I feel no need to convince the FAA of anything, including whether or not you further respond on this subject. The FAA contradicts itself as much as you do.
 
If there was anything to be learned from spin training it was the realization of just how out of whack you had to have things for it to even be possible. At altitude there was no question that what I was doing were intentional spins, whether incipient or over the top, as I had to force them to happen. It was difficult to near impossible to have one just sneak up and surprise you. But when you get close to the ground, like 800 feet or less, and you are maneuvering in a pattern across the ground or circling a point and observing it you can get so focused on what is on the ground that when you look at the panel you’re surprised to see the ball is slammed over to one side and you’re completely uncoordinated. That’s what gets people and it’s usually base to final at maybe 500 feet or a steep circle around a point of intense interest.

So I’d argue that a more useful training are ground reference maneuvers that teach you how to fly that pattern across the terrain while splitting your focus between the stationary objects and your control coordination and increasing your awareness of the effects the wind is having on them. Learn not to get tricked because if the ball is centered you’re not going to spin.
 
Silvaire said:
If there was anything to be learned from spin training it was the realization of just how out of whack you had to have things for it to even be possible. At altitude there was no question that what I was doing were intentional spins, whether incipient or over the top, as I had to force them to happen. It was difficult to near impossible to have one just sneak up and surprise you. But when you get close to the ground, like 800 feet or less, and you are maneuvering in a pattern across the ground or circling a point and observing it you can get so focused on what is on the ground that when you look at the panel you’re surprised to see the ball is slammed over to one side and you’re completely uncoordinated. That’s what gets people and it’s usually base to final at maybe 500 feet or a steep circle around a point of intense interest.

So I’d argue that a more useful training are ground reference maneuvers that teach you how to fly that pattern across the terrain while splitting your focus between the stationary objects and your control coordination and increasing your awareness of the effects the wind is having on them. Learn not to get tricked because if the ball is centered you’re not going to spin.
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There are a lot of people that learn to fly in 172s and the like. Then they go out and buy an airplane they can afford: an old Champ or some similar design that is not at all forgiving of a skidding base-to-final turn, and when they skid that corner with their nice new purchase, it bites them.

I taught in 150s, 172s, Champs and Citabrias. Doing the taildragger checkouts with the fresh PPLs that had learned in the trikes, they would start to skid the airplane in the circuit, so we'd go out to the practice area at a good altitude and make a low-power, skidding base-to-final turn and let the nose come up as well, which is what some guys will do if they're getting a bit low. They don't add power to fix it; they try to stretch the glide. They are shocked at how quickly the world rolls over, and they never skid that airplane in the circuit again.
 
WannFly said:
I keep saying this and no one listens... feels like being married again
straight in for ALL landings.
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I'm thinking this is good, maybe starting 40 miles out. If you go around, you simply have to go to another airport, or continue around the world until you're back again. No 360s for spacing, no touch-n-goes, etc.

Or, to stay in theme, enter at 5000' AGL and spin into final. You either get it right or we get a big bonepile of parts at the end of the runway.
 
When did they stop doing civilian spin training? I was browsing through my civilian logbook the other day and saw an entry for a C152 spin sortie. I have no recollection of that flight whatsoever, but it was signed by my CFI so I assume we did it. This was circa 2002 I believe. I was in a part 141 program at the time if that makes any difference.......
 
35 AoA said:
When did they stop doing civilian spin training?
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It hasn't been a requirement for private since 1949, but teaching them is not prohibited.

Nauga,
with controls released, feet off the rudders, speedbrakes in
 
teejayevans said:
It depends...
Short bodies are pretty docile but when they extended the tail, and moved the battery to the rear, made them less nose heavy, J is the worst. Then they started using heavier engines and they got better. If you aggressively stall a J you will drop a wing, most Mooney instructors won’t let you do a full stall, instead slowly slow the plane and first sign of stalling, recover.
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Interesting... Thanks for the insight.

I'll never forget Ed Guthrie's harrowing tale of spinning in his J. I really don't like doing full stalls in my R because of that. Good to know I might have better chances, and why. However, I think the J still had the battery in front, didn't it? I thought they moved the battery to the rear in the L (first long body) and added the second one to help counteract the much heavier engine up front.

Can anyone share their weight and balance info and the length of the plane for a J?
 
nauga said:
Throttles - idle
AOA, altitude, airspeed, yaw rate - monitor

When recovery indicated (by)...?

Nauga,
closed-book
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Close, I'll give it to the guy who may have written the original. Actually, this was the bane of my existence when flying the Viper.......similar lead in, "controls release, throttle idle" (then the FA18 rote memory tries to take over).......but instead, "if inverted deep stall, rudder opposite yaw direction, if still out of control, MPO switch override and hold, stick cycle in phase.....and then it goes back to FA18......."passing 6k feet AGL dive recovery not initiated - eject"

Similar enough to jumble your words when you are qualified in both and expected to recite either on any given day. #Firstworldproblems
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Interesting... Thanks for the insight.

I'll never forget Ed Guthrie's harrowing tale of spinning in his J. I really don't like doing full stalls in my R because of that. Good to know I might have better chances, and why. However, I think the J still had the battery in front, didn't it? I thought they moved the battery to the rear in the L (first long body) and added the second one to help counteract the much heavier engine up front.

Can anyone share their weight and balance info and the length of the plane for a J?
Click to expand...

No, probably thinking of F.

Mine is 1746/46 and Js are 24’8”
 
35 AoA said:
Close, I'll give it to the guy who may have written the original.
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That was your cue to pick up the cadence ;)
AOA, yaw rate tones removed, side force subsided - recover
Passing 6K AGL, dive recovery not initiated - eject.

I'll skip the branches into falling leaf and the spin modes (but they're still ingrained).

Have a friend who transitioned from Intruders to Hornets who would recite boldface in the brief and occasionally revert to Intruder procedures.

"Dual fire lights, dual fuel filter lights..."
"Fuel filter lights?!"
'Sorry."

Nauga,
who didn't write the procedures but helped with the dictation
 
I find it improbable that a pilot who has such poor piloting technique that he inadvertently enters a spin in the traffic pattern will suddenly become Bob Hoover and not only remember the spin recovery technique he learned during pilot training but execute it flawlessly before he hits the ground. The FAA was correct in removing spin training from the requirement if the accident rate in training was as bad as the record indicates.
 
Witmo said:
I find it improbable that a pilot who has such poor piloting technique that he inadvertently enters a spin in the traffic pattern will suddenly become Bob Hoover and not only remember the spin recovery technique he learned during pilot training but execute it flawlessly before he hits the ground. The FAA was correct in removing spin training from the requirement if the accident rate in training was as bad as the record indicates.
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There are other ways to inadvertently enter a spin besides poor technique, and there may be another pilot in the airplane who can initiate the recovery.
 
Voted most controversial PoA thread of 2018.
 
When i received some spin training, I did not look at as just how to recovery from a spin, I looked at the bigger picture as to what can happen (The experience) if you dont stay on top of your game while flying and situational awareness. Am i going to able to save it at 500 feet? Do i now have a better chance? maybe. I'm no "Top Gun" but, any thing that can make me a better pilot i will gladly implement into my flying career.
 
I asked for spin training early on as I figured that the experience couldn't hurt. Not all spins happen in the pattern as I found out while learning to do doing accelerated stalls. Also got into an inadvertent spin falling out of the top of a loop. Did spins enough that I learned to enjoy them and now I have one more "tool in the toolbox", so to speak.
 
I was horrible with rudder control! That also contributed to my adventures with accelerated stalls. Instructor sat there for a few moments with his arms crossed watching what I would do with the situation. This was almost 30 years ago and I still think about it.
 
I do spins for the same reason I do chandelles or lazy eights or accelerated stalls--because they are fun to do well and I get bored flying straight and level or never exceeding 30 degrees of bank. If anyone wants to get spin training for any reason than by all means go get spin training. There are hungry instructors out there that will appreciate your business. Mandatory spin training for a private pilot certificate has been shown to be stupid if stupid is defined as killing more pilots than it saved. A private pilot doesn't need to know how to recover from a spin if he is taught how to avoid a stall or a spin in the first place. If he is trained to avoid yawing the aircraft at high angles of attack, he won't spin. If he does spin the aircraft out of the base to final turn, chances are very good that all the spin training in the world won't save him.
 
I had spin training with a friend of mine in 1991 who was, at the time, a new CFI. A little un-nerving, but you could practically just fly out the spin in a 150 Aerobat. I really appreciated my spin recovery training in a PA38-112 "Traumahawk" when I got my spin endorsement before going CFI. The break was more dramatic than the 150 and you had to actually apply the standard spin recovery technique so it was actually a useful exercise. The problem with stall/spin accidents is that they don't happen at 3000-4000+ feet. In real life, these mostly happen on base to final turns from a cross-controlled stall at less than '1000 feet, and no amount of spin training will allow you to recover at that altitude. Thus the special emphasis on stall spin awareness and avoidance. The former is cool to do, but in a practical sense, more serious emphasis on the latter would probably save more lives. As far as power-on/off stalls and recoveries are concerned, we should still teaching these so students know what pre-stall feels like.
 
SbestCFII said:
I had spin training with a friend of mine in 1991 who was, at the time, a new CFI. A little un-nerving, but you could practically just fly out the spin in a 150 Aerobat. I really appreciated my spin recovery training in a PA38-112 "Traumahawk" when I got my spin endorsement before going CFI. The break was more dramatic than the 150 and you had to actually apply the standard spin recovery technique so it was actually a useful exercise. The problem with stall/spin accidents is that they don't happen at 3000-4000+ feet. In real life, these mostly happen on base to final turns from a cross-controlled stall at less than '1000 feet, and no amount of spin training will allow you to recover at that altitude. Thus the special emphasis on stall spin awareness and avoidance. The former is cool to do, but in a practical sense, more serious emphasis on the latter would probably save more lives. As far as power-on/off stalls and recoveries are concerned, we should still teaching these so students know what pre-stall feels like.
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That....... +1
 
The training emphasis needs to address the question of why you are more likely to get cross controlled and out of coordination at 400 feet than at 4000 feet and the reason is that you are flying with visual reference to objects and lines on the ground. If there is wind (as there usually is) and you are flying with perfect coordination your flight across the terrain is going to look all wrong because the nose of the airplane is not going to point in the direction of your ground track. If you get focused on your ground track you can easily lose coordination and be cross controlled because in most light GA aircraft the pilot is sitting right at the center of lift and there isn't much "seat of the pants" feel as you would get if you were sitting behind or forward of that point so it's really easy to get jacked up and out of coordination if your attention is fixated on a ground based object.

This doesn't happen at 4000 feet because the ground is so far away and your ground path is much less visually apparent to you. A better training scenario for this are standard ground reference maneuvers at 800 feet. They force you to be aware of the wind and teach you how to fly a defined path across the ground such as turns on a point or S's across a road while compensating for it and dividing your attention between the terrain outside and the skid/slip indicator inside.

Still, the infamous "moose stall" happens to even seasoned aviators when they become fixated on a ground object. It requires discipline not to allow such distraction but obviously it's a strong visual force one must always be aware of when close to the ground.
 
I'm just a student so far. The best i can equate things to is I am an accomplished guitarist. I always notice that the things I like practicing on guitar are the things I can do well. The thing I'm "scared of" or avoid are the clue my mind is telling me to fix. When I realize that, and so spend a little time on the things I avoid I find out hey weren't that difficult at all. In fact it I such more rewarding to work in the things I seem to be avoiding.

It is human nature, and I think it is the same with anything, including being a pilot.

Listen to your fears. I hope and intend to apply the same idea to my training. The things I avoid training on are exactly the things I need work on, and in most cases is much easier to win over than I think.
 
MauleSkinner said:
There are other ways to inadvertently enter a spin besides poor technique ...
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Barring airframe failure, wake turbulence, or treacherous weather (all of which may be the end of you regardless) I can't really think of any.
Oh, except if you apply some flap while doing steep turns and the flap handle sticks and you don't notice until it rolls on its back. Yeah, that. I know that for a fact.
 
My recent lesson with Power On stalls I entered a spin 3 times because I had too much aileron input. I learned how to properly do it after My CFI recovered us, but I asked if we would do any spin training. He said no because it isn’t required for the PPL. That makes me slightly apprehensive because when I am soloing practicing stalls if I do get into a spin I have not practiced it or learned to recover. I know the process is PARE but should I push my CFI to teach me how to recover?
 
TVProducer said:
My recent lesson with Power On stalls I entered a spin 3 times because I had too much aileron input. I learned how to properly do it after My CFI recovered us, but I asked if we would do any spin training. He said no because it isn’t required for the PPL. That makes me slightly apprehensive because when I am soloing practicing stalls if I do get into a spin I have not practiced it or learned to recover. I know the process is PARE but should I push my CFI to teach me how to recover?
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Really? You still flying the 172?
I don't see how you will go in a spin doing a stall with a little aileron in it?
I have to fight my 172 really hard to make it spin. It won't just do it with a stall and aileron. It also needs full rudder.
I don't buy it. LOL!
And to enter a spin its usually power off.
Did your instructor tell you to keep the ball centered when you do stalls?
 
Witmo said:
I do spins for the same reason I do chandelles or lazy eights or accelerated stalls--because they are fun to do well and I get bored flying straight and level or never exceeding 30 degrees of bank. If anyone wants to get spin training for any reason than by all means go get spin training. There are hungry instructors out there that will appreciate your business. Mandatory spin training for a private pilot certificate has been shown to be stupid if stupid is defined as killing more pilots than it saved. A private pilot doesn't need to know how to recover from a spin if he is taught how to avoid a stall or a spin in the first place. If he is trained to avoid yawing the aircraft at high angles of attack, he won't spin. If he does spin the aircraft out of the base to final turn, chances are very good that all the spin training in the world won't save him.
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To bring the thread around full circle again, most of us aren’t arguing against spin training, we’re just arguing against making it mandatory for PPL.
 
WannFly said:
Don’t go around pattern, just land a 10 mile final. No banking at low altitude.







Bw I was kidding
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Glad you weren't serious. Airspeed control, nail your numbers, never more than 30 degrees bank in a standard pattern, stay coordinated in turns, no cheating with the rudder. If you turn through final, stay in the coordinated turn until you come back to centerline.
 
TVProducer said:
My recent lesson with Power On stalls I entered a spin 3 times because I had too much aileron input. I learned how to properly do it after My CFI recovered us, but I asked if we would do any spin training. He said no because it isn’t required for the PPL. That makes me slightly apprehensive because when I am soloing practicing stalls if I do get into a spin I have not practiced it or learned to recover. I know the process is PARE but should I push my CFI to teach me how to recover?
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More than likely, "it isn't required for the PPL" means "I'm not comfortable with them".

If you really want spin training, find an instructor who will do it. You don't need to fire this one, just get some additional outside training.
 
TVProducer said:
My recent lesson with Power On stalls I entered a spin 3 times because I had too much aileron input. I learned how to properly do it after My CFI recovered us, but I asked if we would do any spin training. He said no because it isn’t required for the PPL. That makes me slightly apprehensive because when I am soloing practicing stalls if I do get into a spin I have not practiced it or learned to recover. I know the process is PARE but should I push my CFI to teach me how to recover?
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Sounds like you are overcontrolling and using improper inputs. Study the maneuvers at home and relax in flight, you now have confirmed your instructor can save your life, you have nothing to worry about. Learn.
 
PaulS said:
Sounds like you are overcontrolling and using improper inputs. Study the maneuvers at home and relax in flight, you now have confirmed your instructor can save your life, you have nothing to worry about. Learn.
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Yeah I was - had my go pro running and watched it back. Inadvertently had too much left aileron input during the stall causing a right spin. I eventually got it and stopped the spin entry to do it properly
 
pigpenracing said:
Really? You still flying the 172?
I don't see how you will go in a spin doing a stall with a little aileron in it?
I have to fight my 172 really hard to make it spin. It won't just do it with a stall and aileron. It also needs full rudder.
I don't buy it. LOL!
And to enter a spin its usually power off.
Did your instructor tell you to keep the ball centered when you do stalls?
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Yes keep flight coordination he said. I wasn’t those times when I looked at it and then a spin began. My CFI was able to predict the spin before it fully occurred so it was a quick recovery. Just had too much aileron input
 
TVProducer said:
My CFI was able to predict the spin before it fully occurred so it was a quick recovery. Just had too much aileron input
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More than likely you weren't causing a spin entry, just dropping a wing during the stall. Not the same thing, but some folks tend to equate the two. Using some aileron incorrectly during a full power stall is not enough to cause a spin. You also have to use quite a bit of rudder incorrectly - in the direction of the spin. Hope you find some good spin training at some point so you can correlate different inputs to the eventual result. It is good experience.
 
keep "inadvertently" entering a spin, and eventually you'll have achieved spin training! Then work on the stalls correctly? :D
 
RoscoeT said:
Using some aileron incorrectly during a full power stall is not enough to cause a spin. You also have to use quite a bit of rudder incorrectly - in the direction of the spin.
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More than likely the incorrect aileron use was trying to correct incorrect rudder use.
 
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