Ever wonder what military pilots do before a football fly-by?

[COFlyBoy]

They fly lots and lots of holding patterns.

A couple of weeks ago, we were hiking down in Manitou Springs, just northwest of Colorado Springs. 4 F-15s flew over us at about 3000AGL. Then, they flew over again about 3 minutes later. And again and again and again. This went on for about 45 minutes. Then they up and flew off. It didn't occur to me until we were driving past the Air Force Academy that those 4 jets were the fly-by for the football game.

45 minutes of holding for a 15 second fly-by, then back to wherever they were based out of.

If I didn't think fly-bys were so cool, I'd be really upset about the waste of my tax dollars.

 

[Steve]

@ my daughter's college they practice the fly-overs a few days before the event. So far this year they've been treated to 2 F/A-18 Hornets in formation, a C-17 Globemaster III, and a flight of 4 T-6 Texans (the real ones) low level. She says the college puts out a message on Twitter in advance to notify the students, staff, and faculty when the practice flights are going to occur so no one freaks (hopefully). A couple of times she's called me to confirm the aircraft ID during the low level practice runs.

Never got to see anything like that when I was in school.

 

[wabower]

They still had high-speed mule-wagon drive by's when you were in school.

As Foxworthy says "If you refer to 5th grade as 'my senior year' you might be a red-neck.

@ my daughter's college they practice the fly-overs a few days before the event. So far this year they've been treated to 2 F/A-18 Hornets in formation, a C-17 Globemaster III, and a flight of 4 T-6 Texans (the real ones) low level. She says the college puts out an email and a message on Twitter in advance to notify the students, staff, and faculty when the practice flights are going to occur so no one freaks (hopefully). A couple of times she's called me to confirm the aircraft ID during the low level practice runs.

Never got to see anything like that when I was in school.

 

[Steve]

They still had high-speed mule-wagon drive by's when you were in school.

As Foxworthy says "If you refer to 5th grade as 'my senior year' you might be a red-neck.

 

[roncachamp]

They fly lots and lots of holding patterns.

A couple of weeks ago, we were hiking down in Manitou Springs, just northwest of Colorado Springs. 4 F-15s flew over us at about 3000AGL. Then, they flew over again about 3 minutes later. And again and again and again. This went on for about 45 minutes. Then they up and flew off. It didn't occur to me until we were driving past the Air Force Academy that those 4 jets were the fly-by for the football game.

45 minutes of holding for a 15 second fly-by, then back to wherever they were based out of.

If I didn't think fly-bys were so cool, I'd be really upset about the waste of my tax dollars.

Sounds like a timing or coordination error to me. I've never known a flight to hold that long before a Packers game, and that's true whether they're coming from KGRB, KMSN, or a MOA.

 

[poadeleted20]

Sounds like a timing or coordination error to me. I've never known a flight to hold that long before a Packers game, and that's true whether they're coming from KGRB, KMSN, or a MOA.

Unless the ANG at Buckley now has F-15's, I think those Eagles would have been coming from a lot farther away from Colorado Springs than KGRB or KMSN are from Green Bay. Nearest F-15's to Colorado Springs I can think of would be the 366th Wing at Mountain Home ID. Anyone know better? If they were from MUO, they'd need an early start to be absolutely sure of making their TOT at the Academy.

As for "wasting" anyone's money, unless things have changed, we always had to get some training on a fly-by mission. For example, we might do the fly-by, and then get a low level route or some time on an RBS range on the way home. I suppose those four F-15's could break up for some 2v2 in a MOA after the pass at the Academy.

 

[roncachamp]

Unless the ANG at Buckley now has F-15's, I think those Eagles would have been coming from a lot farther away from Colorado Springs than KGRB or KMSN are from Green Bay.

KGRB has no military aircraft based there, but fly-by aircraft still stage there. I don't see why they couldn't do the same at KCOS without regard to where they call home.

 

[EvilEagle]

Those Eagles were from my squadron (Tyndall AFB - there was actually 2 Eagles and 2 Raptors out there. This was the 20 year reunion for the class of 90', and all the jets had 90' grads in them.

Normally the flyby takeoff has a lot more to do with configuration and how busy the airspace is. If we have 2 tanks of gas, we are way too heavy to land if we just took off and did the flyby, so we take off and hold. Also getting in the hold is good to check out weather if that is going to be a factor. I've been on flybys where the TOT changes 2 or 3 minutes at a time (and it's usually like "uh... they just started the anthem - they are 3 mins early! Push it up!")

Another reason for the early takeoff is to work maintenance problems if you have any on the ground. (The USAFA flyby was only 1 Eagle and 1 Raptor because of maintenance problems at startup.)

Another reason may be noise - I did the Daytona 500 flyby this year and because the runway is so close to the track they wanted us to takeoff before the pre-race stuff started. They also had us do the flyby and be out of earshot until after "Gentlemen start your engines."

There are tons of reasons, but the biggest ones that are a factor are fuel weight and maintenance problems.

 

[EvilEagle]

Unless the ANG at Buckley now has F-15's, I think those Eagles would have been coming from a lot farther away from Colorado Springs than KGRB or KMSN are from Green Bay. Nearest F-15's to Colorado Springs I can think of would be the 366th Wing at Mountain Home ID. Anyone know better? If they were from MUO, they'd need an early start to be absolutely sure of making their TOT at the Academy.

As for "wasting" anyone's money, unless things have changed, we always had to get some training on a fly-by mission. For example, we might do the fly-by, and then get a low level route or some time on an RBS range on the way home. I suppose those four F-15's could break up for some 2v2 in a MOA after the pass at the Academy.

The 390FS at Mtn Home just closed last week (along with all the other CONUS based Active Duty F-15C squadrons). They still have the family model Eagle in Idaho, but no more Air Superiority fighters.

If there's a MOA that we can get into, we still try to get a training square logged - especially if it's a flyby back to home station. Sometimes there's no MOAs around, so we just flyby and land.

 

[Doggtyred]

If I didn't think fly-bys were so cool, I'd be really upset about the waste of my tax dollars.

Those pilots are budgeted flight currency hours. They can fly in a circle, or they can fly off to someplace and have lunch and fly back. Or they can do planned training evolutions. Hours are hours.

 

[EvilEagle]

Those pilots are budgeted flight currency hours. They can fly in a circle, or they can fly off to someplace and have lunch and fly back. Or they can do planned training evolutions. Hours are hours.

Yes and no - we are budgeted flying hours, but we don't get to choose what we do with them.

Def don't get to fly off someplace for lunch - at least not with real jets. We did that in pilot training because they are fuel limited and have no classified stuff on them.

The Navy guys I know get to do some of that. The AF has too many rules.

 

[COFlyBoy]

Man, I must not have been looking close enough, if two of them were Raptors. I totally missed that, but then I only saw them from the bottom.

They probably staged out of Petersen AFB, also known as Colorado Springs Muni (KCOS).

My uncle flew out to Buckley AFB (KBKF) in an F-15 many years ago, to meet us "just for lunch". It was just a solo proficiency flight. Dunno if the rules were more lax back then, if he was just senior enough to get away with it, or if it took a bunch of pre-coordination. Anyway it was really cool hanging out on the flightline while he was getting ready to depart. The MX guys told him he had a dinged fan blade. He put on a white jumpsuit (with no pockets I was told) and climbed down the intake duct to check it out.

 

[EvilEagle]

Man, I must not have been looking close enough, if two of them were Raptors. I totally missed that, but then I only saw them from the bottom.

There were also some Operational Test Eagles from Eglin out there, so you might've seen them.

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes and no - we are budgeted flying hours, but we don't get to choose what we do with them.

For those unfamiliar, USAF crews have semiannual training requirements they must complete in order to maintain status. For each requirement, there will be some number of iterations or hours, such as six Visual Laydown bomb deliveries, ten ILS approaches, two air refuelings, etc. Scorable events may also have accuracy requirements, such as having a CEP inside 200 feet for all the VLD bomb runs attempted. These are set by aircraft type/mission, and will be significantly different for an F-15 versus a C-130. Crewmembers are held accountable if they don't complete all their events each half within parameters. The scheduling and training office would track all that stuff, and make sure you got enough opportunities for low-levels, range time, tankers, etc., to fill all the squares. So, if they said you're going to Melrose range to drop bombs from 1000-1030 today, you didn't get to say, "Naw, we'd rather fly a low-level to the RBS range in Kansas."

Def don't get to fly off someplace for lunch - at least not with real jets. We did that in pilot training because they are fuel limited and have no classified stuff on them.

The Navy guys I know get to do some of that. The AF has too many rules.

We were able to fly places for the weekend in USAF, ANG, and USN jets, and even for turnround missions (i.e., for lunch) as long as we got training events done each way and the place we went was appropriately secure.

Thus, we could fly an F-111 from Cannon AFB up to Mountain Home AFB, refuel, and come home, as long as we got training each way -- say, a low-level into Saylor Creek Range for a few bombing runs on the way up, and a low-level back to Melrose Range for a few more bombs on the way home. 'Course, lunch at the Mountain Home flight line cafeteria wasn't much to write home about, but it got you out of the office all day.

Another time, we took an F-111 for the weekend seafood tour -- launch from Cannon AFB NM with an RBS run somewhere in Kansas on our way to Eglin AFB FL (where they had a few F-111's so they could fix us if we broke) for shrimp night at the O'Club there, then on Saturday via a low-level in the Carolinas up to Pease AFB NH (an FB-111 base) for Lobster Night, then home on Sunday via another RBS range with about 140 lobsters in the weapons bay for the rest of the squadron to have a lobster boil Sunday night.

Likewise, in the ANG, we used to launch out of Standiford Field in Louisville about 7 pm on Friday night in an RF-4, fly a low-level up to Wright-Patterson AFB OH, land, park the jet, have a few beers and dinner in the Rathskeller (basement of the O'Club), spend the night in the BOQ, and then fly another low-level home next morning to arrive as the ANGB opened at 9 am on Saturday so they could turn the jet for a 10 am flight by someone else. Nice way to get two days' pay for 8 hours work and a night in Dayton while filling training squares. Also improved the utilization rate on the jets as that way we got three training hops out of the jet on Saturday instead of just two.

But maybe that's all changed in the last 20 years...

 

[Doggtyred]

All I know is Southwest Services has been doing military transient at Ellington-Houston for YEARS and making bank off it. They have a row of hotel rooms (ahem.. BOQ's they call em) that are avail for military use only. I even saw some entertainment show up one night.. She was pulling her work clothes out of her clutch purse. The FBO will toss in meals to the flight crews as well, since they make $$$ gassing up the plane on uncle sam's credit card.

Their ramp rats are trained, and since ANG is down at the end of the line, there is military security available as well as a semi secure ramp but make no mistake.. the mil transients are going to civilian places, not the ANG ramp.

And now that you mention it, most of the birds on the line I see ARE Hornets.. occasionally an AF bird.. but usually Hornets.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Their ramp rats are trained, and since ANG is down at the end of the line, there is military security available as well as a semi secure ramp but make no mistake.. the mil transients are going to civilian places, not the ANG ramp.

I've always wondered that - We have a fair amount of transient mil traffic at MSN, and they always go to the GA ramp instead of the mil ramp. Wouldn't it make more sense for them to get JP-8 from our ANG than Jet-A at the FBO? Not that I mind having Harriers, Hornets, etc. on our ramp to drool on, just always wondered.

In fact, we had quite the variety recently. A T-6A, a T-37, an A-10, and a pair of F-16's all on the ramp at once. Very cool.

 

[roncachamp]

In fact, we had quite the variety recently. A T-6A, a T-37, an A-10, and a pair of F-16's all on the ramp at once. Very cool.

A T-37 recently? Who's flying T-37s?

 

[EvilEagle]

Tactical USAF aircraft don't normally get to do out and back missions like you describe from Cannon. I know they used to, but now it's all about T/O and landing on time, who can refuel you, how much the gas costs, who can turn you, what if you break, etc, etc, etc. Unfortunately the USAF MX has decided that transient birds aren't worth their time. In fact at Lakenheath, I know they denied a PPR to an EAGLE squadron on their way to the desert - they ended up turning through Mildenhall. Ridiculous, but that's the way we are doing business these days....

I have stayed in those Q rooms at Ellington before. We were down there to fight the F-18's out of Ft Worth.

I don't want to put the word out there that we never do cross-countries. We are supposed to have a cross country sortie every quarter (or more for some squadrons) but they have to be approved months in advance and only to places that have Eagle Mx support - or we have to pay to take Mx folks. You can't just throw a dart at a map and say "lets go there today"

Ron: some things have changed, but the event square-filling is still the same. "Sir, you need to log an ILS in the next 3 days... and you are out of LOWAT currency..."

 

[flyingcheesehead]

A T-37 recently? Who's flying T-37s?

Sorry. Upon further review, it was a T-45. Someone else told me it was a T-37 (glares at Pete).

 

[poadeleted20]

Tactical USAF aircraft don't normally get to do out and back missions like you describe from Cannon. I know they used to, but now it's all about T/O and landing on time, who can refuel you, how much the gas costs, who can turn you, what if you break, etc, etc, etc. Unfortunately the USAF MX has decided that transient birds aren't worth their time. In fact at Lakenheath, I know they denied a PPR to an EAGLE squadron on their way to the desert - they ended up turning through Mildenhall. Ridiculous, but that's the way we are doing business these days....

I have stayed in those Q rooms at Ellington before. We were down there to fight the F-18's out of Ft Worth.

I don't want to put the word out there that we never do cross-countries. We are supposed to have a cross country sortie every quarter (or more for some squadrons) but they have to be approved months in advance and only to places that have Eagle Mx support - or we have to pay to take Mx folks. You can't just throw a dart at a map and say "lets go there today"

Guess I'm glad I served then rather than now, even if we lived with a lot of hostility off-base.

Ron: some things have changed, but the event square-filling is still the same. "Sir, you need to log an ILS in the next 3 days... and you are out of LOWAT currency..."

Figures -- the no-fun stuff never changes, but the fun keeps getting less.

 

[Hiperbiper]

Just speaking as a taxpayer; if all the services want to burn all the fuel that could possibly pass thru all the engines in all the aircraft (as well as ground vehicles) that are in the inventory to keep the fella's sharp ya'll go ahead.

It's only money. I like to hear the engines (even on the trim pad) as much as possible. Sounds like Victory to me...

To win a war takes Billions.
To lose one takes all you've got.

Chris

 

[BillTIZ]

I've made that run in the B-1.
Down by the Valley of the Gods and up over the parade grounds in the morning.. South to North.

We flew off to do a fly-by to open a new aviation museum somewhere in Kansas.

Then back to the USAFA in the early afternoon for a fly by the stadium for the Homecoming Game at the end of the National Anthem. They piped the music up on the frequency so we could time our "Time on Target" over the stadium to the end of the Anthem. We hit the staduim at about 1000 AGL ft, 500knts and lit full AB, pitched up and climbed out.

I was told the vibrations knocked the foot ball off the kicking tee. The stadium went wild !!!

We had left early in the morning from home base, ran a high altitude bomb run over La Junta CO with ECM, and the low level route too. Then to the Academy for the morning parade, down to Kansas for some traffic pattern airwork at the new museum. Hit a tanker, then back to the Academy for the Kickoff pass over the stadium. Then another low level through Nebraska (Hastings) and back to Grand Forks ND. I think we logged about 10 hrs that day, two low level routes, high altitude bombing runs, ECM and Bomb Runs at all target areas, Air Refueling, and air show work. It was a full training day on a Saturday.

 

[hindsight2020]

I don't know if it's the peacetime leadership or what, but if I hear another story from an old timer about the way things used to be somebody is gonna have to point me at the commander directed suicide prevention briefing. The AF has officially killed the dream for me. 1000' feet <250kts passes now (haha, clock me...), and you 'better watch it Captain the 3 stars is down there...' *ugh* Then I get the commander to tell me his stories about his buddies buzzing the base from the populated side and trees getting swayed by the wake turbulunce...and they all got promoted with their DUIs and sex scandals. I don't know if to salute them or give them the finger. These days you look at the towel folder at the gym the wrong way (or sneak in a texas 'shocker' hand gesture on an aircraft servicing training video...) and you get an article 15 and file for your troubles.... You old dudes didn't have it that bad, you had it great. I'd give the internet back for a shot at living in that time. Yeah yeah, I guess I could live in the time of banked pilots; meh banked sounds better than a career UAV.....