Etihad Airlines LOOSES 2 Billion Dollars

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Art VanDelay, Jul 29, 2017.

  1. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Boeing ain't exactly patriotic. It's all one big multi-national sellout job these days. Filling those Norwegian ULCC 787 orders with Ex-Im sweetener then telling us to wave the red white and blue while they ram us up the rear with a broomstick paid for with the extra labor value they stole from us in the first place. Meanwhile the damn thing has more foreign component suppliers than a "Dodge" assembled in Méjico.
    upload_2017-8-5_2-35-47.png

    Globalization is a scheme to pit the unwashed masses against each other in one proverbial paper bag, while the capital owners watch like God as they twist the top shut and let 'er rip. In the desperate and dark tumble, we fight each other for the remaining 70% income replacement capable family-sustaining jobs, for ourselves and our progeny. The distraction of course, is the canard that as long as you have access to a cheap smartphone and entertainment venues, your house-poverty, your retirement insolvency, your educational de facto lifetime debtor prison, and your medical bankruptcy, is all par for the course. GTFO here. Modern day Hunger Games.

    So forgive me, I have not seen much "patriotism" from the capital owner class in this Country. Yeah.... Eff Boeing.
     
  2. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    The very airplanes that Boeing and Airbus build caused globalization. Moving goods around the planet below a certain size and quantity is handled by them.

    Next up are massive ocean freighters. Mass goods are handled that way.

    The house-poverty, retirement insolvency, educational debtor prison, and at least some of the medical bankruptcy issues are hinged on personal fiscal decisions and lifestyle choices. If you buy into the idea that you have to have the lifestyle pushed by marketing, and that debt is the way to obtain it, you're signing up to work for the company store.

    House: Buy at 25% of income or less and only after saving for a standard down-payment. No "zero-down" loans with high fees and PMI which is a drain that can only be plugged after seven years of mostly-interest payments and most people move every seven years. Better is not buying until you're not going to move. If you have a mortgage on it, the lie is that you own it. You don't own jack. You're a tenant of the bank and signed of your own free will to be so. If you didn't have a plan to pay it off fast, welcome to working for the bank.

    Retirement insolvency: Mathematically it doesn't take that much money to live comfortably in retirement if you own everything outright including your home. See above. If your expectation of good retirement living is what the consumerist marketing pushes, you'll have to save a lot of money. If your tastes are simpler (and still above what the vast majority of the population of the world gets) it's a lot easier mathematically.

    Educational debt prison: One of the most easy things to control that people don't. The "progeny" tell the parents what the school is they want to go to instead of the parents parenting and explaining to the progeny that there's little evidence a high end school in a great many jobs will garner any higher wages in that job. A couple of years at a community college for pre-requisites and transferred credits to the larger school, along with judicious shopping of the larger school via price, as it relates to easily estimated income level for the job types that a particular degree can expect to work in, is rarely done. There's only a tiny fraction of jobs that require a particular "pedigree" of degree, and a couple years into a career, nobody cares anymore what school logo is on the piece of sheepskin for the most part. There's even fairly plentiful vocations that still require no degree whatsoever. I know three people in the contractor trades who make really nice livings relatively, and never paid a dime for higher educations. All three founded and own their own businesses started from shoestring budgets and nothing.

    Retirement insolvency: You have more control over this than you think. And frankly you also have various "entitlement programs" that probably aren't going away underpinning your personal fiscal plan. It's quite unlikely you're going to starve or be homeless if you at least made an effort. If you actually plan, you're not that likely to be insolvent.

    If you think life is about consumerism and buying crap, well... you're not alone, but it leads to indentured servitude of the sort you've described. You've got about six decades of earning potential years to figure it out. Each decade that passes the catch up is harder, but most folk know by 25 maybe 30 at the very latest, where their time spent working is being spent and what they're buying with it. Hopefully much sooner.

    Other than mass taxation and shared debt, there's very little any of those terrible global elites can do (or even want to do) to you that will stop you from reasonably comfortable fiscal success in this country. Being consumed with envy isn't an effective use of anyone's time. The concept that it's a zero-sum game is also broken. You can make a product or service they want and sell it to them fairly easily. And they need people to sell, service, maintain, and manage their goods and services too.

    The vast majority of those with a Net Worth of over a million dollars didn't inherit it, the average GPA of a millionaire is 2.9, most never bought a new car more than once, and almost none borrowed money to make money.

    Hunger Games: Were you promised something different when you popped out and the Doc slapped you on the butt? Life is a Hunger Game. If you want to eat, you have to get up, leave the cave, go kill something, drag it home, and cook it.

    I'm going to guess that since you posted the above at 2AM my time, you're probably not down at the public library using the "free" internet and community computer to post from, so you've probably got at least $500 worth of hardware and a monthly bill for internet service for anywhere from $480 a year to $720 a year tied up in posting stuff like the above, that literally got you nowhere.

    Perhaps you should spend that on your "progeny" who are starving, as you contend? Toss it in a savings account for their education and leave a legacy through them instead of entertaining yourself at their expense on the Internet?

    If you don't want to play the entertainment purchase game those evil global overlords are selling, don't. Shut off the expense and go fishing or something. That'll help feed the starving "progeny" too. They'll appreciate more time with you, too, I imagine. You can tell them bedtime stories of the evil globalization business owners who are coming for them. Every kid likes a good fairy tale.
     
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  3. Everskyward

    Everskyward Administrator Management Council Member

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    What's funny is that the OP copied "looses" from the original link. You would think that an aviation propaganda site would have better editors.

    Screen Shot 2017-08-05 at 08.02.49.png
     
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  4. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Oh, yeah, UA is bottom of the barrel from customer standpoint.

    On AA, the MCE seating has been reduced and is being gradually replaced by premium economy. Even MCE isn't available at booking unless you are ExP. The free buy-on-board also applies only to ExP - lower tiers get no benefit. And that's assuming the flight attendants do thei job (some don't and it becomes a bit of an argument... I've had to get the purser more than once).

    Flagship lounges are only available for international or JFK-LAX First class, or for ExP status traveling internationally. Other than the Transcontinental F on 3 class planes, domestic passengers get no lounge benefits for status. And frankly, if you're ExP and traveling internationally, the AA F lounges don't come close to the Cathay or Qantas lounges that you also have access to.

    Upgrade policies have been changed on AA, including the priority wait list, and they are working to reduce the number of F/J seats. Like the others, there is now a minimum spend requirement to even get status. Like UA, power ports are not available on a fair portion of the fleet.

    Delta and Alaska are the two best "legacy" US carriers at the moment; SouthWest is very good service wise, but you're getting a more barebones service - limited as it is, they do it very well. JetBlue is also decent, and their Mint transcontinental product beats the legacies on price/value.

    I agree with you on Skyteam.... I miss the days where SwissAir, Austrian, and Singapore were partnered with Delta - that used to be the one to beat. Air France and The other partners are meh at best.
     
  5. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    Why are you bringing up your bootstrap ideology as a response to my criticism of Boeing? I can be critical of gratuitous consumerism too without having to endorse the level of wealth inequality on this Earth. If you think 720/yr is the inflection point that's gonna get people out of the rat race, you're the one telling bedtime stories. This isn't about Starbucks coffees getting me to 2MM in retirement (lol I don't even drink coffee or alcohol, so those expenses are out for me). Nice red herring though.

    You're barking at the wrong tree anyways, as I'm the one lampooned at work for putting my progeny up through the indignity of "meager housing choices"; one housewife went so far to suggest it bordered on spousal neglect (that was a tense get together LOL).

    I think you can keep those vestiges of 19th century American pioneer morality without having to bend over for Boeing et al. Again, I don't wish to debate your personal ideology, as I don't disagree with most elements of personal responsibility you've espoused on your response, but I don't have to endorse and rationalize global labor value theft in the process just so my personal ideology doesn't fall apart like sugar wafer. If you're ok with the level of wealth inequality brought about by multi-national crony capitalism and/or outright kleptocracy, you can just say so. Launching personal attacks based on assumptions in order to discredit my opinion of globalization isn't really a convincing argument in support of Boeing.
     
  6. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    Because you brought up your buzzword bingo jingoistic anti-Boeing globalization screed in response to a completely different topic. Whether or not protecting international airline routes from non-U.S. Airlines is a good tactic for the airlines and unions as a propaganda scheme.
     
  7. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    Even "professional" news sites can't afford editors anymore. I usually expect them to be poor, and everything else to be anyone's guess, but worse.
     
  8. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    A brief synopsis, if I may:

    Nauga,
    HTH ;)
     
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  9. Zhunter

    Zhunter Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Ok, I'll give my .02 worth.

    Note: I am EXP on AA and fly about 95% of my miles outside of the USA

    I will typically fly AA metal to/from Europe, but ALWAYS opt for Qatar going to the Middle East or Africa. Qatar just has MUCH better service, seats (although some of the new AA seats are very good), and the flight attendants are superior in their service. The food is way better too. Going to Asia I will typically go with Cathy, very good airline with service just a level below Qatar.

    AA has the best FF program of any of the US carriers, and that is why I stay with them. I tried Delta, yes I called them up one year and told them my travel frequencies and they made me an instant Diamond to get my business. It was a one year experiment and not worth it! Delta would be a great thing for me IF they had a good FF program, but they are terrible when compared to AA.


    Note #2: My local (Delta) airport is 23 minutes from my house, I drive 100 minutes to the AA hub for the better service and perks.

    Bottom line, I am about service and loyalty (FF Benefits), Delta is not even in the conversation of getting my business.
     
  10. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    And what value do highly paid union leadership contribute to society?
     
  11. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    I don't know and I don't care, as I don't view the world in that simpleton binary. If you took my criticism of Boeing as anything having to do with whatever foaming at the mouth aversion you may have about rent seeking in union management, you're simply projecting your own agenda, which has nothing to do with my post. Nice straw man though.
     
  12. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    You're regurgitating union talking points, so I made an assumption. If you don't work for Boeing, then what does this mean?

    "Filling those Norwegian ULCC 787 orders with Ex-Im sweetener then telling us to wave the red white and blue while they ram us up the rear with a broomstick paid for with the extra labor value they stole from us in the first place."

    (I'm not sure I know what it means either way, since I don't know what it means to steal "extra labor value.")
     
  13. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    I'm not gonna draw it in crayons for ya, you're gonna have to do your own homework. The ex-im bank is taxpayer subsisdy so patriotic Boeing can sell norweigan (NAI) 787 airplanes at a discount, made under the false flag of made in USA, less than half the airplane manufactured by Americans, so norweigan can further depress wages by normalizing the race to the bottom in the intl market. It's nothing more than corporate welfare so the treasonous trans nationals like boeing can hide behind our flag when foreign players wish to stiff them (and our kids go get shot to enforce it), but otherwise don't have the patriotism to build the god damn thing at cost here in it's totality and put their money where their mouth is. Socializing losses, privatizing profits. Traitors.

    I don't work for Boeing nor the airlines, but I was refuting the original jab that was made about the US airlines acting patriotic and not buying Airbus, as I find it a grossly specious argument. My criticism of Boeing was part of the point I was making to illustrate that fallacy of "buy american". Boeing is a friend of Boeing, not american labor. That was my only point. Your axe to grind against organized labor is your agenda, not one to do with the spirit of my post. Which is why associating it with my remarks is a cheap straw man. If you want to wax poetic about unions, go start your own thread and stop quoting my posts, as your crusade has nothing to do with them.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  14. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    I love how the "foaming at the mouth" "crusader" who derailed the thread away from its original points while "projecting [his] own agenda" is complaining about all of that. LOL.
     
  15. Lindberg

    Lindberg En-Route

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    Where are those 787's assembled? What portion of Airbus airplanes are built in the US?
     
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  16. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    Don't know what portion of Airbus' airplanes are "built in the USA", but the company operates an assembly plant for the Airbus A-319/320/321 series at Mobile, AB., and also has an engineering office there, plus an innovations center in Silicon Valley.

    Parts of commercial and military aircraft have been built in various countries for decades. The simple truth is that every government sees aerospace as one of those "high paying, skilled job creation strategies". So if Boeing or Airbus want to sell planes and military hardware outside their corporate headquarters nation they have no choice but to spread the investment and jobs around. The idea that Boeing could sell its products worldwide while sourcing every last nut, bolt and washer exclusively in the USA is worthy of some of the deep thinkers in the White House these days, and just as naive.
     
  17. Art VanDelay

    Art VanDelay Pattern Altitude

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    Think about this for a moment -
    The three largest airlines in the WORLD in terms of passengers carried, revenue generated and by PROFIT are ;
    American
    Delta
    United

    Now somehow, amazingly these same three companies that command so much of the marketplace find it ECONOMICALLY UNSUITABLE to operate any kind of four engine aircraft. Additionally these same three carriers find it unsuitable to remove revenue seats to make room for such amenities as piano lounges, showers and other nice to have amenities.

    Lufthansa is a distant fourth in terms of profit yet they somehow manage to have over 40,000 more employees on their payroll than Delta and almost 40,000 more than United ! Lufthansa actually has the distinction of having the most employees of any airline for that matter. And you're trying to tell me that they play by the same rules as the big three here in the states ?

    Look at Emirates - they're not even a public company - they are owned by their government !!!! How is Delta or any public company supposed to compete with that ???? That's like competing against the Air Force.

    Maybe we're not the smartest country in the world but we're not the dumbest. I am all for REAL competition - bring it. If you think the ME Carriers are not unfairly propped up by their governments than you probably think Lance Armstrong should be restored his Tour de France victories.
     
  18. Art VanDelay

    Art VanDelay Pattern Altitude

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    Lots of Airbus stuff made here in the United States. IIRC their largest helicopter plant is over here in Mississippi.
     
  19. Art VanDelay

    Art VanDelay Pattern Altitude

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    Oh contraire ! At the end of the day you're only as good as what you NEGOTIATE ! Besides I have an Exwife and several bartenders to support ! And BTW some 12 year Captains make even more than that. I know one particularly diligent senior wide-body F/O that made 300k.
     
  20. Art VanDelay

    Art VanDelay Pattern Altitude

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    Nate puh-leez, the Boeing 787 is made all over the world ! It's like the Kumba Yah airliner.
     
  21. Steve Costello

    Steve Costello Pre-Flight

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    Every single time I fly a US3, I'm reminded of why I hate flying on any of the US3. I've recently taken an AA767 flight from ORD to CDG, and one to FRA. Since the price difference between coach and first for the round trip for two for each trip amounted to the cost of a really nice used car, we opted for coach.

    I'll never take AA trans-Atlantic again. I wish I had gotten the build date of the 76's we flew. Because I'm fairly certain that the seats were original to the aircraft. We could feel the seat rails through what passed for a seat cushion. It hurt just to literally sit in the seat, much less attempt to get in any position to get any sleep on the overighter. The carpet hadn't seen the business side of a carpet cleaner in an awfully long time. I've had better food at... actually, I've always had better food. I'm not entirely sure what I ate. (Speaking of food, I haven't had a meal on any flight, any carrier, from STL to the west coast for at least 15 years. A bag of peanuts for a 5+ hour trip during a meal time? Ridiculous.)

    In short, I'd rather take a Greyhound bus from DC to LAX than ride an AA flight to the other side of the pond.

    Compare those flights to a JAL I took a few years ago from Thailand back to ORD. I rode coach, but felt like I was in first. I was wanting for nothing, save maybe another inch of legroom. Good food? Check. Free drinks? Check. Power outlet at my seat? Check. Comfortable seat that didn't make me too intimately familiar with my neighbor, and yet still allowed me to get comfortable enough to fall asleep? Check.

    Don't even get me started on the regional carriers. Normal-size people BARELY fit into those seats. Coming home from my grandfather's funeral a few months ago, I got to ride in an RJ next to a fairly large fella. I literally sat on one buttcheek the entire flight, pressed against the wall, and STILL had nearly full body contact with the fella. "Yeah, but that guy should have bought two seats yada yada yada" yeah, maybe so... or maybe not make the seats so that I, a very average (5' 11", 175 pounds) person barely fit.

    I feel like crap every single time I fly a US3. It's completely miserable. And yeah... I don't make enough scratch to fly first. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't be treated well and have some option to feel like a human. I primarily fly SWA, because the customer experience for me has *always* been excellent. I fly semi-regularly, and SWA makes me wish I flew more. Their FF program (with the Chase card) works really, really well for us. My wife and I had the recent startling realization that whether SWA services the local airport would be a very, very major consideration should we ever move from STL... as in, it's basically a dealbreaker if they don't.

    So, all this hurrah and crap for the US3 is hilarious to me. They will continue to lose marketshare to companies that give a crap about their customers... both those up front and in coach. I'm not looking for caviar. I'm just looking for something that comes even close to passing for good service.
     
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  22. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    That UAL plane I flew to/from China last week sure looked like a 4-engined Boeing 747-400. Granted, they will phase them out later this year for 777's which will carry about ~2/3 the passengers per trip as a 747. But they are still flying them! As is Delta, for a least a few more months.

    Those amenities you mention are only for 1st class passengers and I get as excited about those as the Polaris Class in UAL....I'll only see them as I'm passing through to the seats I can afford (or my company buys me). Apparently those seats also have a lounge of some kind on the plane where one can grab a snack mid-flight.

    Based on your comment about most profitable airlines and the rest of it, it seems they are doing ok by themselves and are competing efficiently against the subsidized airlines. Europe had a lot of subsidized airlines and there are fewer of them now.

    How is Delta (or other USA airlines) supposed to compete? People give the answer in their posts above- decent service. UAL took a step recently in that direction when they rebooked (rerouted via different airports and connections) my trip due to a lack of a plane on a segment, automatically. Previously (as in earlier this year), it took a call to someone to get such a rerouting done.

    As for Delta, please note my post #63. Maybe try to upgrade their planes to handle the carry-on that people bring.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
  23. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Well, Emirates also buys Boeing so I guess they support the USA worker too. Still, the majority of Airbus products are made overseas. And Airbus is subsidized too ( http://www.boeing.com/company/key-orgs/government-operations/wto.page oh yes, I believe anything a corporation publishes :rolleyes:)

    How about the airlines supporting ATC privatization (with the notable exception of Delta)? Their doing things like that make me less likely to support them in their political endeavors.
     
  24. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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  25. wsuffa

    wsuffa Touchdown! Greaser!

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    So let's dissect that for a minute.

    They are the largest because the Government has granted anti-trust clearance and allowed them to reduce competition on many routes, where they have reduced available seats (sometimes drastically). It has allowed them to institute substantially higher fees on passengers - in fact, record profits. Meanwhile, Southwest is firmly profitable (and has been, even as the others lost money) without all the fees.

    Delta and United still operate 4-engine aircraft (747), though they are reducing them with the goal of eliminating them in the forseeable future. I've got no problem with that, and financially, it makes all the sense in the world to operate a 2 engine plane that has nearly the same capacity as a 4 engine plane. And by reducing capacity, they can increase fares even more (economics still applies). The three-holers (DC-10/MD-11/L-1011) were used by those three carriers in lieu of the 4-holers to control costs - but those planes became obsolete. Same is happening with the 747. The USAF is going to purchase a couple of 748s that have been sitting in the desert to replace the planes used as AF1.

    Somehow, those three companies that command so much of the marketplace also find it ECONOMICALLY UNSUITABLE to operate with a 3-person cockpit crew - the Flight Engineer position was eliminated long ago.

    I would argue that the US-3 have been intent on maximizing profits rather than maximizing customer service - unlike some other global carriers. Cathay and Singapore do quite well, thank you. It's a matter of profit over quality. Not that we haven't seen that before - until the Japanese car makers came into the US with higher quality vehicles did the US automakers make any attempt to clean up their act. Even at that, we had government bailouts (GM = Government Motors).

    Even the US provides some kind of subsidy to the airlines - remember that at least on US airline CEO takes no salary, he is compensated on stock market performance.
     
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  26. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Cleared for Takeoff

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    So what's your point in all of this? Here you make a point that your airline carries more passengers and makes more profit than the ME3. Are you not happy with that?

    In this post I asked you a direct question in which you dodged:

    So what is it? What is it exactly that you and your airline are trying to accomplish with this inane tirade?
     
  27. jbarrass

    jbarrass Line Up and Wait

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    ...and their active aggression to PBOR lost them a lot of support among us bugsmashers too...
     
  28. denverpilot

    denverpilot Tied Down

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    So are airlines apparently. So U.S. carriers have to compete.