Establishing PIC with a flight instructor

Threefingeredjack said:
Just for clarification, I posted my response in the context of the original post. In that context a passenger had informed the owner/PIC that in the event of an emergency the passenger would be assuming command. That is an unacceptable precondition for any passenger to make.
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I'm with you there. On an instructional flight, the CFI is a crewmember, not a passenger.
 
Once I reached the point that sitting quietly and watching to see what they would do, how they did it and how it turned out was more interesting than saying anything while they did it (which is the way most sim training is administered) I have adopted that policy any time I'm riding vs flying. If asked, I'll help. If not, I'll sit. No matter which role, I always watch for traffic.

In either event, I'll probably make some notes. If the pilot sees the note-taking and wishes to discuss, I'm happy to oblige. If not, any particularly note-worthy items are entered on my running notes of good/bad things I've seen pilots do.

denverpilot said:
I watched an ex-Military Vietnam-era IP save my butt and everyone else's on board a (probably overloaded) 182 on floats one day.

Young pilot in the left seat launching us out of a lake in front of a fishing camp north of Kenora, Ontario. Closest emergency services was at least 100 miles away.

Youngster in his third season flying people into the backcountry would have over-rotated and gone to way too high of a nose-up pitch angle at lift-off; he wasn't paying attention to the rear CG.

Old crusty IP in the right seat simply had his hand up on his leg where he knew the yoke needed to stop at -- and stopped it from coming any further aft during takeoff. He noticed the kid had full nose down elevator to get the tails of the floats out of the water during the takeoff run, and knew what it meant for the takeoff.

He didn't have to say a word. Blocked the yoke right as the stall horn came on with the palm of his hand, while the young pilot turned red and woke up.

IP never said a word. He kept his mouth shut and let the kid learn.

If he hadn't been in the right seat, I don't know if I'd be here today. I thanked him later in private back at the floatplane base away from the young pilot. He smiled and nodded and said something to the effect of, "I spent a lot of years keeping students from killing me, didn't think today was a good day to ignore the signs."

Only the three of us ever knew it happened. If I weren't a pilot, I wouldn't have noticed or seen anything but the beep of the stall horn.

Anyone sitting right seat who needs to make a big deal out of being PIC, is trying too hard.

Old IP taught me a lot about being a courteous right-seater that day, too. Sit there, shut up, and help save everyone's ass when the left-seater makes a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes eventually.

If you can do it without making it obvious, Good Samaritan points for you. If I weren't a pilot and watching, I'd have never known what he did that day.
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Everskyward said:
I think that CFIs need to think hard about altering someone else's technique if that technique seems to be working out OK for them. It's a different mindset than teaching someone from scratch. Questions or suggestions are fine but calling someone's technique "ridiculous" is over the top especially if the CFI is not familiar with that particular airplane.
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By the way coming from another direction.... If a person owns an airplane and has 1000+ of hours in this aircraft, it doesn't automatically makes him a better choice of PIC in case of an emergency unless this person practices emergency maneuvers fairly often.

Emergency is all about choosing appropriate set of actions. Couple months ago we had a guy running out of fuel at night, and landing on FWY 15 in Arrow. Well he had thousands of hours, type ratings and so on. Sure he was more than qualified to glide Arrow to emergency shoulder on the freeway. But how the hell he managed to ran out of fuel on the first place?:wink2:
 
wabower said:
In either event, I'll probably make some notes. If the pilot sees the note-taking and wishes to discuss, I'm happy to oblige. If not, any particularly note-worthy items are entered on my running notes of good/bad things I've seen pilots do.
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Heh. I'd be self-conscious of anyone scribbling in the right seat and would be trying to peek at your notes or just flat-out ask at that point. Why wait? Hah.

That said, overload me and I wouldn't have time to notice. I know Jesse took notes while he was hammering things into my brain, but I also knew that was normal for a CFI working at chiseling into the rock hard head that sits on top of my shoulders. So I wasn't self-conscious about it.

It registered far enough that my eyeballs saw the scribbling and I knew we had some stuff to talk about when we landed and I was out of brain cells and time to ask. Haha. ;)
 
wabower said:
One of the strangest cases I remember is a CFI being held liable even though he was in the back seat, presumably instructing two guys in the pilot seats. Doesn't answer your question but always comes to mind during these discussions.
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HI Wayne,

Was that Embry Riddle CFI who sat in the back seat to do a Xcountry?
As I recall the two students and a female CFI in the back seat crashed out of Ft Lauderdale a half dozen years ago?
 
Hi, Tony, I don't remember the details, just the strange circumstances. Ron probably has a better handle on this one.

Tony_Scarpelli said:
HI Wayne,

Was that Embry Riddle CFI who sat in the back seat to do a Xcountry?
As I recall the two students and a female CFI in the back seat crashed out of Ft Lauderdale a half dozen years ago?
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This reminds me of my high performance and complex check ride in my Comanche. I had about 400 hrs in my Cherokee and just bought the Comanche. I think I flew it twice with the owner about 30 minutes each once before I bought it and once afterwards.

I ask the Local flight school owner, also CFI trainer at Flight Safety to train me and sign me off. A mutual friend a bonanza owner wanted to go sit in the back seat so he came along.

Nice day clear day but typical Kansas weather was a little windy about 20-27 knots. So we decide to go up. I went through most of the ppl check out maneuvers stalls in all of about 20-30 minutes and we hear ATC call out special notice to airmen for significant turbulence surface up and winds 37-44 and quickly worsening. We began to notice a bit of jostling above usual so we looked at each other and he said "That's good, lets go back."

So we head back and he asked do you want me to land? I said I am perfectly comfortable to land the plane in these conditions. It flies identically to the Cherokee with all traffic speeds 10 mph faster and the plane is 1000 lbs heavier. So I told him "I do not have insurance do you want to land?" he said "your plane." So I landed. :)

We made traffic pattern and turned a tight pattern but I was able to manage it pretty well and all in all it was a very sweet landing. Beginners luck but I knew how nervous my passengers were when they high five each other as I pulled off the runway.

I asked when he wanted to fly again and he said "your good to go, Tony." I think my sign off is .7 or .8 hrs.

Re PIC. It depends but if I am flying regularly and current then I establish what might happen in an emergency. Generally I fly, I go through the emergency check list by memory, you grab the checklist and double check me, unless I ask you to do some other task. Then we generally agree one person flies the plane and the other handles the radio calls watches for traffic.

Generally, if the co pilot has a commercial or CFI and has as many hours as I have or more then I presume his experiences are better than mine and ask him if how we prefers to handle emergencies. Its more about who flew the most hours in the last 6 months as my time is over 8-9 years and if his is over 2-3 years with plenty more landings than he is getting more frequency than am I.

When I fly with other pilots I do it pretty much the same way with the exception if they do not fly complex/hi performance aircraft I ask them to back me up.

As far as 3 people in the plane, I want the pilots in the front seat.
 
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wabower said:
Hi, Tony, I don't remember the details, just the strange circumstances. Ron probably has a better handle on this one.
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The case as I understand it involved a Private Pilot who owned a Cherokee Six and took five others including a CFI on a weekend trip. On the way home, with the CFI asleep in the last row, they crashed in deteriorating weather. The FAA did nothing with the CFI, but the jury in civil suit filed by the other passengers found the CFI should have foreseen the possibility of this happening and provided some suggestions or advice to the Private Pilot owner/PIC to prevent the bad outcome, either before or during the flight. They found him partly to blame, and ordered that he pay some of the damages awarded to the other passengers (the bulk being paid by the owner/PIC who was found primarily to blame). That doesn't suggest the CFI should have overridden the PIC, but the jury concluded the CFI had a duty to monitor the situation and at least offer advice/suggestions which the PIC could then decline, but at least the CFI would have done what he could to prevent this from happening. The jury found his failure to do so a negligent omission which made him liable for the results.
 
Ron Levy said:
the jury concluded the CFI had a duty to monitor the situation and at least offer advice/suggestions which the PIC could then decline, but at least the CFI would have done what he could to prevent this from happening. The jury found his failure to do so a negligent omission which made him liable for the results.
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Boy that must suck...knowing that as a CFI, the public holds you responsible for the safety of every flight you take as a passenger.

So the same would apply to a CFI flying in a King Air? Citation? 777? Even if you're in the last row on the SouthWest flight, apparently the public believes you have a duty to speak up if there's bad weather and offer advice to the pilots...

Then again, we all know that this is what happens when a laywer tells uninformed juries what to think about us super rich pilots...
 
bflynn said:
Boy that must suck...knowing that as a CFI, the public holds you responsible for the safety of every flight you take as a passenger.

So the same would apply to a CFI flying in a King Air? Citation? 777? Even if you're in the last row on the SouthWest flight, apparently the public believes you have a duty to speak up if there's bad weather and offer advice to the pilots...

Then again, we all know that this is what happens when a laywer tells uninformed juries what to think about us super rich pilots...
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Your Switian sarcasm is duly noted. But I think we all realize that the case I mentioned is an awfully extreme case unlikely to be repeated, and that in any event, the totality of the circumstances will be considered. Just gave it in response to Wayne's mention of it and to show how bizarre some jury verdicts can be in comparison with the FAA's more rational approach to this issue. I was never concerned on my flight down here in seat 32L that anyone was going to hold me responsible for anything.
 
Ron Levy said:
Your Switian sarcasm is duly noted. But I think we all realize that the case I mentioned is an awfully extreme case unlikely to be repeated, and that in any event, the totality of the circumstances will be considered. Just gave it in response to Wayne's mention of it and to show how bizarre some jury verdicts can be in comparison with the FAA's more rational approach to this issue. I was never concerned on my flight down here in seat 32L that anyone was going to hold me responsible for anything.
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And if something happens, shame on them for not going 32 rows back to seek sage counsel.
 
Ron Levy said:
My old fantasy -- "Excuse me, sir, both of the pilots ate the fish, and..." :D
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Yeah, I had a passenger a few years ago - Cherokee pilot - who after flying with me in the Aztec for a bit said "You know that dream every pilot has? Yeah, I'm now realizing that if it were me, we'd all die."

If it were me, I'd tell everyone "Brace for impact." I doubt I could land a 737 the first time and have it be very pretty.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yeah, I had a passenger a few years ago - Cherokee pilot - who after flying with me in the Aztec for a bit said "You know that dream every pilot has? Yeah, I'm now realizing that if it were me, we'd all die."

If it were me, I'd tell everyone "Brace for impact." I doubt I could land a 737 the first time and have it be very pretty.
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If you had some time to work it, I am confident that you could, Ted.
 
SCCutler said:
If you had some time to work it, I am confident that you could, Ted.
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I'm sure, but that time is not with 200 screaming people in back thinking "The two real pilots are dead, and some hippie is flying the plane!" :)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
You would probably be amazed at what you can do if you HAVE to.
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Fully agreed - I've proven this enough times.

But, I also try not to be too cocky.
 
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