Establishing PIC with a flight instructor

DavidWhite

DavidWhite

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When you are flying with an instructor for a fun flight an not an instructional flight, (like taking an instructor friend flying) do you tell them to obey the rules of the copilot? (Sit down, don't touch anything unless I tell you you can.)

I've been taking some of my CFI acquaintances flying in the Mooney and one of them told me if there was an emergency he would take control of the airplane and handle the emergency. I asked him how much Mooney time he has? "0" How many emergencies have you had? "0" "So why do you think I should let you handle a potential emergency?" Says I, but he insisted he could handle it better. I told him he could sit in the back seat so he couldn't touch anything and I'd put my other friend in the front, but he said he would only fly with me if he could sit in the front and be PIC. I told him there was no reason I had to take him flying at all if he was going to be a turd, so he stayed on the ground and another friend got a Mooney ride.


Has anyone else experienced arrogance like this from a flight instructor before? (Or am I the one being arrogant?)
 
I definitely think that if the instructor only has experience in Cessna 172 and or Piper PA-28's then the Mooney is a little bit more complex to fly, especially if he doesn't have electric trim on his side of the airplane.
 
You are PIC in your plane and you make the rules. That said, don't get too cocky. Some of these more experienced guys may haven something to offer. Listen to what they say then make your decision.
 
No electric trim on his side, this guy does have about 100 hours in Seminoles, but the rest of his mighty 600 hours is in 172s and cherokees.
 
Sac Arrow said:
You are PIC in your plane and you make the rules. That said, don't get too cocky. Some of these more experienced guys may haven something to offer. Listen to what they say then make your decision.
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:yeahthat: Your plane, your rules. His a**, his prerogative. Sounds like you both made a decision you can live with.
 
Anyone that is going to challenge your authority as PIC should NOT have access to the flight controls.

You did the right thing, good for you.
 
Sac Arrow said:
You are PIC in your plane and you make the rules. That said, don't get too cocky. Some of these more experienced guys may haven something to offer. Listen to what they say then make your decision.
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Nah he has a few less hours than me, and he doesn't even meet the insurance requirements in my airplane. Not one of the three criteria. (Of course, I only meet 1 of the three criteria in my open pilot clause)
 
I can't remember the name of the company (I got it through AOPA), open pilot clause is 750TT, 150 retract, and 25 in type (the only requirement I meet)
 
As a CFI, I brief and discuss who is PIC prior to every flight (when flying with certificated pilots). Even if the guy in the left seat doesn't bring it up.
 
Some people think that, because they have that magical piece of paper that says "CFI", they know everything and are automatically the best pilot in the plane. This seems to happen especially with low-hour CFIs, and some who are just arrogant. In this case, you're in a better situation to handle an emergency than him, so you made the right call.

I typically don't have this issue when flying with others, but it is helpful when flying with pilots you've never flown with before (or who you fly with rarely) to provide a pre-flight briefing so these things are decided ahead of time. It's good that he brought this up before you got in the air, and you should make a point of bringing it up as well.

When I'm a passenger in someone else's plane, unless I have reason to believe that they're a particularly bad pilot or I'm significantly more experienced in that type or in some meaningful way, my assumption as a CFI is that I'll just sit there as a passenger unless asked to do otherwise, and expect that pilot to handle the emergency. A few weeks ago, I flew with a friend in his Archer. I wouldn't have presumed to take controls in the event of an emergency. I don't even know how to fly a single anymore, and it'd been two months since I'd flown anything at all.

Now, if I had been flying with a low-hour pilot who just got his multi in whatever that multi plane was, I would have done a different briefing, and I would have expected to take control in the event of an emergency.
 
The mere possession of a Flight Instructor certificate doesn't automatically make anyone the PIC in any airplane s/he happens to be in, nor does it automatically make them qualified to act as PIC in any particular plane, especially if s/he has no experience in type. This is why, whenever I get in a plane with someone else and I'm not giving training, I ask them whether they want me to be an instructor, PIC, co-pilot, or passenger, and then I behave accordingly.

In any event, the OP acted appropriately in establishing roles and responsibilities before starting the engine. If the CFI bumming a ride couldn't live with the house rules, then he chose wisely by getting out.
 
DavidWhite said:
I can't remember the name of the company (I got it through AOPA), open pilot clause is 750TT, 150 retract, and 25 in type (the only requirement I meet)
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Mine was similar. I think they wanted something like 1000TT, 250 retract or 10 in type. I needed 20 hours dual instruction before I could even solo the thing, not to mention the 50 in type required for passengers. I went time building with a CFII friend of mine who had 20 or something in type plus like 5500 retract, and I would have definitely let him take the airplane. And I would have absolutely let the guy who trained me in it take the airplane. Now I'm back with my primary CFI from my private and although he has a lot of experience teaching, not a lot of it is in Cessnas but what he's done in Cessnas is a lot of 182 time... I think I probably know the procedures better, but he knows emergencies in general better. I think we'd likely work together in that sort of situation.
 
Ron Levy said:
The mere possession of a Flight Instructor certificate doesn't automatically make anyone the PIC in any airplane s/he happens to be in, nor does it automatically make them qualified to act as PIC in any particular plane, especially if s/he has no experience in type. This is why, whenever I get in a plane with someone else and I'm not giving training, I ask them whether they want me to be an instructor, PIC, co-pilot, or passenger, and then I behave accordingly.

In any event, the OP acted appropriately in establishing roles and responsibilities before starting the engine. If the CFI bumming a ride couldn't live with the house rules, then he chose wisely by getting out.
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Ron, someone with your experience level I wouldn't hesitate to let fly. Sometimes just watching someone experienced you can learn really useful stuff, but some of the CFIs I know outnumber me in hours, but IMO their 1,000 hours in the pattern in a 172 doesn't hold a candle to my 600TT and 400 PIC XC. (With an actual emergency under my belt)
 
DavidWhite said:
Nah he has a few less hours than me, and he doesn't even meet the insurance requirements in my airplane. Not one of the three criteria. (Of course, I only meet 1 of the three criteria in my open pilot clause)
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I'd say that you dont feel is he qualified as you to act as PIC and ask him if he still wants to go up, presuming you even like the guy and want to take him.
 
Good call, David.

If I ever insist upon being PIC in your airplane, tell me to take a leap.
 
Ron Levy said:
This is why, whenever I get in a plane with someone else and I'm not giving training, I ask them whether they want me to be an instructor, PIC, co-pilot, or passenger, and then I behave accordingly.
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I was under the impression that, should anything go wrong, the FAA would generally assume the CFI was PIC.
 
Sam D said:
I was under the impression that, should anything go wrong, the FAA would generally assume the CFI was PIC.
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Which is why it's important to clearly establish it ahead of time. I've not heard of a case where the faa hung a cfi who wasn't giving instruction. Would be interested in contrary data.

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2
 
One of the strangest cases I remember is a CFI being held liable even though he was in the back seat, presumably instructing two guys in the pilot seats. Doesn't answer your question but always comes to mind during these discussions.



TMetzinger said:
Which is why it's important to clearly establish it ahead of time. I've not heard of a case where the faa hung a cfi who wasn't giving instruction. Would be interested in contrary data.

Sent from my SCH-I200 using Tapatalk 2
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DavidWhite said:
When you are flying with an instructor for a fun flight an not an instructional flight, (like taking an instructor friend flying) do you tell them to obey the rules of the copilot? (Sit down, don't touch anything unless I tell you you can.)

I've been taking some of my CFI acquaintances flying in the Mooney and one of them told me if there was an emergency he would take control of the airplane and handle the emergency. I asked him how much Mooney time he has? "0" How many emergencies have you had? "0" "So why do you think I should let you handle a potential emergency?" Says I, but he insisted he could handle it better. I told him he could sit in the back seat so he couldn't touch anything and I'd put my other friend in the front, but he said he would only fly with me if he could sit in the front and be PIC. I told him there was no reason I had to take him flying at all if he was going to be a turd, so he stayed on the ground and another friend got a Mooney ride.


Has anyone else experienced arrogance like this from a flight instructor before? (Or am I the one being arrogant?)
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Funny how you've actually had an emergency yet he still thinks he could handle an emergency better.
 
DavidWhite said:
Ron, someone with your experience level I wouldn't hesitate to let fly. Sometimes just watching someone experienced you can learn really useful stuff, but some of the CFIs I know outnumber me in hours, but IMO their 1,000 hours in the pattern in a 172 doesn't hold a candle to my 600TT and 400 PIC XC. (With an actual emergency under my belt)
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Thanks for the vote of confidence. The point is you have to know who you're dealing with and establish the rules for that flight accordingly.
 
Sam D said:
I was under the impression that, should anything go wrong, the FAA would generally assume the CFI was PIC.
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On an instructional flight, yes, that would be their starting assumption, but not otherwise. Since the situation under discussion is not a training flight, it's up to the folks involved to decide before starting the engine who is PIC, and that could be either of the two, and obviously the aircraft owner gets the final say in who's going to be PIC.
 
wabower said:
One of the strangest cases I remember is a CFI being held liable even though he was in the back seat, presumably instructing two guys in the pilot seats. Doesn't answer your question but always comes to mind during these discussions.
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When you're talking about civil liability, keep in mind that a court once found the non-pilot passenger asleep in the right seat contributorily negligent for the accident. Look up Newberger v Pokrass for the particulars. But that's a whole different story than whom the FAA will hold accountable for an accident/violation.
 
Ron Levy said:
When you're talking about civil liability, keep in mind that a court once found the non-pilot passenger asleep in the right seat contributorily negligent for the accident. Look up Newberger v Pokrass for the particulars. But that's a whole different story than whom the FAA will hold accountable for an accident/violation.
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In other words, as a CFI you're probably going get screwed regardless!
 
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David: Only 9 words are necessary.

"You toucha da plane, I breaka you face. Capiche?"
 
LDJones said:
On other words, as a CFI you're probably going get screwed regardless!
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I can count on the fingers of one thumb the number of court cases I've heard of where a CFI not functioning as a crewmember was ever held liable for damages, so I'm not much worried about it -- just an interesting legal quirk like Newberger v Pokrass.
 
I've never had an issue and would let the owner deal with an emergency provided they did so properly and weren't doing something that was going to result in my demise.
 
If I'm flying on your dime you are PIC... I'll enjoy the flight and help out if needed. If you're flying on my dime, I am PIC and expect the same.

Good on you for getting this hashed out on the ground!
 
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jesse said:
I've never had an issue and would let the owner deal with an emergency provided they did so properly and weren't doing something that was going to result in my demise.
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:yeahthat:

When I'm a passenger I'm just a passenger. I'll play some other role if asked although I can't think of an instance when I was PIC in someone else's personal airplane.
 
DavidWhite said:
When you are flying with an instructor for a fun flight an not an instructional flight, (like taking an instructor friend flying) do you tell them to obey the rules of the copilot? (Sit down, don't touch anything unless I tell you you can.)

I've been taking some of my CFI acquaintances flying in the Mooney and one of them told me if there was an emergency he would take control of the airplane and handle the emergency. I asked him how much Mooney time he has? "0" How many emergencies have you had? "0" "So why do you think I should let you handle a potential emergency?" Says I, but he insisted he could handle it better. I told him he could sit in the back seat so he couldn't touch anything and I'd put my other friend in the front, but he said he would only fly with me if he could sit in the front and be PIC. I told him there was no reason I had to take him flying at all if he was going to be a turd, so he stayed on the ground and another friend got a Mooney ride.


Has anyone else experienced arrogance like this from a flight instructor before? (Or am I the one being arrogant?)
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Sorry but that is a ******** flight instructor. You are PIC. It's your aircraft! It would be different if he was providing instruction. It is a privilege to be invited to fly in your aircraft, nobody has the right to make demands about sitting in front to act as PIC. That's when I would have told him to get the hell out of my plane.

And you should be confident and assertive. That's not arrogence, do not confuse the two. That's YOUR airplane, YOU are the pilot and YOU are the PIC. you can direct any duties to the person sitting in the right seat as you see fit.

That being said I am not going to let anyone risk my ticket or life. If I was in your plane and I saw you trying to do an impossible turn on takeoff if your engine failed, I might have something to say about it ;)

If you are generous enough to invite me to fly on your airplane, I will GLADLY sit back, enjoy, and let you take on the workload. I have no problem or ego issues with being a passenger. But I am always watching.
 
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