EPA accuses Volkswagen, Audi of evading emission laws

ggroves said:
Failed under real world driving conditions. Google is your friend.
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Sure - but the EPA testing wasn't done that way.

Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
The regulations are specific about "defeat devices" - that's the issue.
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There is always a catch. I'm was pretty sure they violated the spirit of the law, but wasn't sure about the letter of the law.
 
SoonerAviator said:
The EPA serves an important role, and should exist simply because people and corporations don't always align their practices with the best interests of the environment. I just think they are far too overreaching and less helpful than they could be, just like most other government institutions.
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True. Absolutely agree. The way to reign these agencies in is oversight, to limit their budgets and to have a mediation court for all the little guys like your example that get crushed under the weight of bureaucracy. I too have suffered at the hands of these types of technocrats.

In my case it was at the hands of the California Air Resources Board. They govern air quality here and are more strict than the feds are. There was a scientific study that supported the theory that diesel exhaust particulates were causing a high rate of asthma in inner city children. So they set policy to clean it up as fast as they could and started mandating emission standards for on road and off road diesel engines.

Problem number one is, they mandated standards that the technology didn't exist to comply with, so they came up with a tiered schedule with artificial timelines. I have heard that Caterpillar has quit the California market as a result of these demands. Basically, it requires every operator of diesel engines in California to be using the unicorn "tier 4" engine by 2020.

Problem number two is, these mandates are retroactive, so if you own an old truck with a tier 1 engine, you must now retrofit it with very expensive, unreliable and questionable equipment for now and then replace the entire engine by 2020. Big fleet operators and transportation companies are dealing with this OK, but the little guys like me... we're ****'d. If you don't have all the money for a new truck, tractor, boat, generator, etc, the state will graciously loan you some if you qualify.

Problem number three is, the original study on asthma that got all this started has since been debunked. Further study over the last ten years has shown that asthma in children doesn't occur in any higher rates in the cities vs. country. It is about the same. It doesn't matter, the law still stands.

I'm sure that less soot in the air is good thing regardless, so I'm OK with new technology to reduce that. My beef is with the militant way they chose to bring about this change. They should have done like they did with the cars and mandated that all new cars being sold must meet the new standard and let it be at that. Over time the old equipment would wear out and be retired naturally. There was no need to force economic hardship on people. None at all.

Environmental agencies do serve an important purpose, but indeed they have been given too much power to create policy on whim and to punish people indiscriminately and without consideration. A reform of these agencies would be quite welcome, abolishion of them would not.
 
It's nice to see some reasoned discussion of the problems with the EPA.
 
This article cites a study that found that in cases of fraud, a company's drop in market capitalization averages 7.5 times the legal penalties imposed. Considering the $18 billion in potential fines, that could add up to more than the $88 billion market cap the company had prior to this weekend's revelations. :eek:

Volkswagen scandal may put car maker’s survival on the line
 
Palmpilot said:
This article cites a study that found that in cases of fraud, a company's drop in market capitalization averages 7.5 times the legal penalties imposed. Considering the $18 billion in potential fines, that could add up to more than the $88 billion market cap the company had prior to this weekend's revelations. :eek:

Volkswagen scandal may put car maker’s survival on the line
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They'll probably just exit the US market if that happens and disregard the penalties from the US Gov't. However, it could sour the recent uptick in the other co-brands like Audi.
 
SoonerAviator said:
They'll probably just exit the US market if that happens and disregard the penalties from the US Gov't. However, it could sour the recent uptick in the other co-brands like Audi.
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I don't see how this happens. Porsche and Audi are part of Volkswagen Auto Group. From legal perspective, they are just as culpable. In fact, Porsche is a majority owner of VAG with controlling interest, as far as I remember.

Surely, you don't suggest Porsche exiting US market. And even Audi.

Edit: and Bentley and Lamborghini and Ducati.
 
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Palmpilot said:
This article cites a study that found that in cases of fraud, a company's drop in market capitalization averages 7.5 times the legal penalties imposed. Considering the $18 billion in potential fines, that could add up to more than the $88 billion market cap the company had prior to this weekend's revelations. :eek:

Volkswagen scandal may put car maker’s survival on the line
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At least the EPA can put the 18b collected in fines towards paying down the national debt. :rofl:
 
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This is going to be interesting for the car business, although VW is a minor player in most US markets, it may cause other manufacturer's vehicles to be retested to confirm compliance. In the short run it's going to be a disaster for VW dealers and owners of the affected models. In the long term, it will likely work out OK. There will be lawsuits filed, depositions taken, VW will pay out a huge amount to the injured owners, that will then have their cars fixed and lower their fuel mileage. ;)
 
What about the class action settlement? The one that gets a law firm a billion dollars or so, and each VW owner a $10 voucher towards a new car?
 
Matthew said:
What about the class action settlement? The one that gets a law firm a billion dollars or so, and each VW owner a $10 voucher towards a new car?
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I bet they get at least $100.00!! :mad2::mad2:
 
N747JB said:
This is going to be interesting for the car business, although VW is a minor player in most US markets, it may cause other manufacturer's vehicles to be retested to confirm compliance. In the short run it's going to be a disaster for VW dealers and owners of the affected models. In the long term, it will likely work out OK. There will be lawsuits filed, depositions taken, VW will pay out a huge amount to the injured owners, that will then have their cars fixed and lower their fuel mileage. ;)
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John, any thoughts with respect to the future of diesels?
 
SoonerAviator said:
They'll probably just exit the US market if that happens and disregard the penalties from the US Gov't. However, it could sour the recent uptick in the other co-brands like Audi.
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I'm betting that option is being discussed in VW corp as we speak(well, they are in bed right now). The downside is for the IRS potential fines, and also customs, these are the only two agencies that can seize assets prior to any conviction to insure payment of fines, penalties, including interest.

I don't know how many cars VW has in the US right now, but between the IRS, and customs, it would appear they could justify seizing every car in inventory, along with the VW spares, and maybe Audi cars and parts as well to securitize future payment. Maybe the 2016 VWs and Audis will be sold by the feds this fall. :lol:
 
The ineptitude of our government shouldn't be a surprise, but they always manage to find a way to be worse than you'd expect.

Imagine how stupid the idiots running the test labs must be if they got fooled by a system that only worked when a plug was plugged in.

They won't lose their jobs. But should.

Not a single road test in almost a decade...
 
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BRB while I absolutely not have my tdi reprogrammed.
 
So, anticipate a fine that will make a statement, but not kill or drive away VW. Lots of jobs, there...
 
SCCutler said:
So, anticipate a fine that will make a statement, but not kill or drive away VW. Lots of jobs, there...
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So you're saying VW figured out our government will always play the "too big to fail" game? ;)

If you're going to break the law, break it huge and big enough it'll hurt the employment numbers, and the politicians will make lots of noise and smoke about "next time", while you sail off in your new yacht.

Haven't met a homeless GM exec, yet.

Doubt I'll meet any from VW, either.
 
Something I missed in the story. Do automakers do their own testing and certification of emissions?

And if that is so, why did VW bother to fiddle with software for their own test? That's only tricking their own tester. Wouldn't it have been easier to just lie, and make up phony numbers?
 
NoHeat said:
Something I missed in the story. Do automakers do their own testing and certification of emissions?

And if that is so, why did VW bother to fiddle with software for their own test? That's only tricking their own tester. Wouldn't it have been easier to just lie, and make up phony numbers?
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No. Many states do their own emissions testing, so the vehicle has to be able to pass those tests.

Rich
 
RJM62 said:
No. Many states do their own emissions testing, so the vehicle has to be able to pass those tests.

Rich
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Thanks, I didn't think of state inspections.

So was VW relying on the hope that all state inspections, now and forevermore, would be done exactly the same way, so that the software cheat would kick in the same way for every test?.
 
NoHeat said:
Thanks, I didn't think of state inspections.

So was VW relying on the hope that all state inspections, now and forevermore, would be done exactly the same way, so that the software cheat would kick in the same way for every test?.
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Perusing most State websites, there aren't many that don't plug into the OBD port. They have to, to see if you had any "check engine" codes you thought you turned off with the $49 cheap scanner and are trying to hide from them. Also highly important to make sure you don't have a leaky gas cap. (The most common failure here behind actual engine problems.)

Around here, they also no longer care if your brakes work, your lights work, you have half a fender falling off, windshield cracked all the way across, or anything at all related to "safety" like days of old. Not their job, man.

They just want to smash as many vehicles through the contractor's test bays and help them make the most possible cash in the least possible time. It's just fast food applied to the automotive world.

It seems only normal that anything run by computer is open season for rip offs. Doesn't surprise me in the slightest that when the government dangles free tax breaks for things, the things are shipped with purposeful effort to play games with the software to bust the laws of physics.

Won't be too surprised when other auto manufacturers are caught as soon as proper test protocols are written up and tried, either. It won't be just VW when this all shakes out. Tip of the iceberg.

I wouldn't call it much of a leap of "hope" that States would plug into the OBD port. You can barely work on a car these days without doing it.
 
When VW came out with the new generation of diesels, their claim to fame was that they wouldn't have to use DEF to regenerate their NOx reduction system. The system goes through a regeneration cycle but during that time, there can briefly be a higher level of emissions. I wonder if the 'defeat device' the EPA is harping about is simply the mechanism that blocks regeneration while the car is hooked up to a OBD scanner.
 
RJM62 said:
No. Many states do their own emissions testing, so the vehicle has to be able to pass those tests.

Rich
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If you don't put the vehicle on a dynamometer and run the full test cycle then the test is meaningless.
 
NoHeat said:
Something I missed in the story. Do automakers do their own testing and certification of emissions?

And if that is so, why did VW bother to fiddle with software for their own test? That's only tricking their own tester. Wouldn't it have been easier to just lie, and make up phony numbers?
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Most testing is done by the manufacturers, but the EPA does some testing to confirm the results.
 
The emissions scan in Memphis used to be a joke, not sure how it is now.

You'd have to take half a day off work to go get it done, wait in line for a couple of hours.

If you failed, you had 3 tries to get it right. After the 3rd failure, they just gave you an automatic pass.

In Mississippi you paid $5 for the inspection or $15 for no inspection.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
If you don't put the vehicle on a dynamometer and run the full test cycle then the test is meaningless.
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They stopped using the dyno altogether in New York about four years ago. For some years prior to that, they used it only on pre-OBD2 vehicles. Now those vehicles don't get emissions-tested at all. The shops didn't want to maintain the dynos, and the state didn't want to keep supporting the old system, so they decided to make the inspection on all pre-OBD2 cars safety-only.

The problem with emissions testing in general is that it's sort of become the inspection, rather than just part of it. I've had inspections that I know for a fact consisted of nothing other than running the OBD2 tests. The inspector barely looked at the rest of the car. One of them actually asked me if the brakes, lights, etc. were all right and just punched my answers into the machine.

I'm pretty obsessive about car maintenance, but I would still like the inspector to at least glance at the car. There are things I can miss.

Then on the other extreme are places where anything you drive in will fail. A few years ago I had the manager of one of the national-brand shops tell me that one of my cars had failed because of alleged front-end problems that would cost about a grand to fix, but which he could do that day while I waited. I was pretty sure he was full of ****, so I called his bluff. I told him to go ahead and fail the car and give it a "Failed Inspection" sticker so I could drive it home and "fix" it myself.

He walked back into the shop, came back a few minutes later, and told me that the inspector had reconsidered and had decided to pass the car after all. He'd "reinspected" it and had found that the alleged problems were "borderline."

Yeah, right.

The truth is that selling a customer unnecessary work is one thing. Once the work is done, there's no easy way to prove that it wasn't needed. But slapping a "Failed" sticker on a car that doesn't need the work may take a big bite out of an inspector's ass if an honest inspector looks at it next. I wonder how many times a day they run that scam and people who don't know any better fall for it.

The local, independent mechanic I use now has the right balance: He's anal enough to do a good, thorough inspection, but honest enough not to find problems that aren't there.

Rich
 
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RJM62 said:
The local, independent mechanic I use now has the right balance: He's anal enough to do a good, thorough inspection, but honest enough not to find problems that aren't there.

Rich
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A rare creature that needs to be cherished and praised. Maybe cloned for the rest of us to admire :yes::yesnod:
 
genna said:
I don't see how this happens. Porsche and Audi are part of Volkswagen Auto Group. From legal perspective, they are just as culpable. In fact, Porsche is a majority owner of VAG with controlling interest, as far as I remember.

Surely, you don't suggest Porsche exiting US market. And even Audi.

Edit: and Bentley and Lamborghini and Ducati.
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They may be owned by the same company, but they are entirely separate legal entities. They could depart VW from the U.S. and not affect Audi/Lamborghini/etc at all. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't other repercussions like increased scrutiny on the remaining brands.

Ex: GM shuttered Pontiac but kept other brands going. Now obviously that was self-imposed, but the result is the same. I do believe VW will just issue a new software update that eliminates the EPA issue and then provide their customers with a rebate for "lost fuel efficiency over the life of the car". The fines will be significant, but not $18B. Life will go on.
 
SoonerAviator said:
They may be owned by the same company, but they are entirely separate legal entities. They could depart VW from the U.S. and not affect Audi/Lamborghini/etc at all. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't other repercussions like increased scrutiny on the remaining brands.

Ex: GM shuttered Pontiac but kept other brands going. Now obviously that was self-imposed, but the result is the same. I do believe VW will just issue a new software update that eliminates the EPA issue and then provide their customers with a rebate for "lost fuel efficiency over the life of the car". The fines will be significant, but not $18B. Life will go on.
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VW has wanted to be #1 in the world for awhile, a big part of that is getting g into the US market a lot bigger than they have been and they've been working to that end in the newer models by designing to American taste

It'll be a simple software change.

I bet there won't be a rebate, more like a coupon for discount on your next vag product
 
SoonerAviator said:
They may be owned by the same company, but they are entirely separate legal entities. They could depart VW from the U.S. and not affect Audi/Lamborghini/etc at all. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't other repercussions like increased scrutiny on the remaining brands.

Ex: GM shuttered Pontiac but kept other brands going. Now obviously that was self-imposed, but the result is the same. I do believe VW will just issue a new software update that eliminates the EPA issue and then provide their customers with a rebate for "lost fuel efficiency over the life of the car". The fines will be significant, but not $18B. Life will go on.
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VW can depart as a brand, of course. But a brand is not a legal entity. A company is VAG. Audi is a wholly subsidiary of VAG(the company) and Porsche is the majority stake holder. They are all financially responsible for any judgment or fines against VAG... And these will be levied against VAG not "Volkswagen". As long as any brand of VAG is sold in USA, the USA government has a big hummer over the head of all of VAG.

GM may nix Pontiac, but it still remains responsible for everything Pontiac did. Well, kind of not since GM is actually a brand new company after the bankruptcy. At least that's what they are trying to claim in the ignition switch fiasco.

But it was absolutely responsible prior to 2008 for Oldsmobile even if the brand was gone.
 
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ggroves said:
Redneck hillbillies love their smoke tunes, DPF deletes, 4 inch exhausts, and anything else that makes their oversized POS trucks belch out more black smoke. I really wish the EPA would go after the Malones, EFILives, etc. of the world and bury them with enough legal costs to shut them down.
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I despise those people more then anything. Their normally ****oles on the road and have a almost total disregard of other people's health.

One almost ran me off the freeway in Houston, the other day, after I past him. Apparently he didn't like the idea of a Subaru out running him. :lol:
 
ARFlyer said:
I despise those people more then anything. Their normally ****oles on the road and have a almost total disregard of other people's health.

One almost ran me off the freeway in Houston, the other day, after I past him. Apparently he didn't like the idea of a Subaru out running him. :lol:
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He probably just didn't like the idea of Subaru in general. :yikes:
 
the only thing that really ****es me off about the vw thing is how far the public is going to take it and what it'll do to resale value.
 
The public has a short memory.
 
RichNY said:
The public has a short memory.
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Not for things like this, even if the fix has no impact on performance the stigma will remain.

A good example is the audi 5000 in the 80s and "unintended acceleration" that was completely false.
 
denverpilot said:
Doesn't include any settlements with dealers who are going to be royally ****ed at HQ...
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Those dealers also know that many owners are going to avoid the dealership and the "fix" at all costs.

The other cost to VW will be the payout to owners who take a hit on value, performance, ego, and driveability.
 
docmirror said:
I'm betting that option is being discussed in VW corp as we speak(well, they are in bed right now). The downside is for the IRS potential fines, and also customs, these are the only two agencies that can seize assets prior to any conviction to insure payment of fines, penalties, including interest.

I don't know how many cars VW has in the US right now, but between the IRS, and customs, it would appear they could justify seizing every car in inventory, along with the VW spares, and maybe Audi cars and parts as well to securitize future payment. Maybe the 2016 VWs and Audis will be sold by the feds this fall. :lol:
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Don't forget VW's manufacturing facilities in the US. I'm not sure what an auto factory costs, but I'd guess a billion dollars is a reasonable floor...
 
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