Entry-Level Airplane Buying Checklist

[DavidH]

Pilots like to use checklists and Engineers like to come up with them. In the spirit of doing just that, I decided to create one that takes into account my observations to date of what a successful process might look like. Hopefully it can be of use to others.

Look the checklist over and let me know what additions, subtractions, or changes should be made. If I can't follow it... I'll only have myself to blame.

Item 19 is a bit satirical... but honest .

David

 

[James331]

Not sure about the professional title search, just order the FAA CD and review it.

 

[fiveoboy01]

#4 is interesting to me.

Looking at a specific year and model of aircraft, prices are EVERYWHERE.

You'll find one for 85K with 1600 hours on the engine, then one with 200SMOH, similarly equipped for 65.

I'd think vref or some other method of reasonable "ballpark" pricing determination would be a necessity. I can browse listings all day and compare which helps a bit, but none of them are really an accurate starting point.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Also, something that could be added to that... a very specific list of items that a potential buyer should be inspecting on the initial inspection(before an actual prebuy). Exterior, interior/panel, and engine compartment items. As well as functionality checks for all the avionic and mechanical equipment on the aircraft.

I mean, if that's something that engineers do

 

[denverpilot]

I can think of a lot of things that would best fit a flow diagram. Example, the requirement to scan logs is useless if the logs are within driving distance. Requiring it would knock out sellers who just want out of the thing (lost a medical, interest level in helping you buy it zero, but willing to haggle low on price) in some cases.

The checklist also glosses over that the best deals are never advertised. You have to tell everyone you know that you're looking for a plane and they have to like you enough to let you know that Old Bob just hung it up after 50 years.

 

[OkieAviator]

A lot of this is going to be off putting to a seller. Asking questions to gauge honesty, emailing your evaluation and requesting scans of the logbooks is a bit too much.

 

[fiveoboy01]

Then they can sell to someone who doesn't care.

I can specifically think of one guy who pitched me a sale of his Cherokee via email... I'd seen the plane in the past, and it "looked ok"...

He told me 1000 SMOH, but a printed ad a friend held from less than a year prior said 1500 SMOH and half the logs were missing. It was also known that the guy was flying without a valid medical. Reeked of dishonesty... That alone led me to walk off.

There are "crooks" out there. Better to protect yourself than worry if the seller will get offended.

 

[fiveoboy01]

The checklist also glosses over that the best deals are never advertised. You have to tell everyone you know that you're looking for a plane and they have to like you enough to let you know that Old Bob just hung it up after 50 years.

A very pretty and well restored 170B is for sale at the local airport, and I guarantee you'll never see the airplane on trade-a-plane/Barnstormers etc.... Same guy had a Tailwind and it also never saw any advertising via the internet.

 

[OkieAviator]

Then they can sell to someone who doesn't care.

Which will happen and you may or may not have missed out on a great deal. Not saying don't perform your due diligence but the act of pricing and negotiations is more of an art than a hard science. As such look for the win/win options and don't go into it thinking you have the upper hand. Walk away as soon as it obvious to either party that the transaction wouldn't be a win/win.

I went through this process over the last 6 months. This summer decided I wanted a plane and came up with a dollar amount I would spend ($50k) and a set of requirements (4 passengers, IFR capable). I looked at all the usual places online as well as called FBOs within Oklahoma, Kansas and Texas asking about planes for sale either a 172 or something "similar".

I talked to 5 people who placed ads and about 10 people who were interesting in selling that got a hold of me through various FBOs I called. After these I narrowed it down to 3 planes and was getting ready to start the negotiation process with one seller when I got a call from a guy I know interested in selling his 172 because he was buying a speedy 2 person plane.

A week later his deal on the other plane feel through and I proposed we partner on the 172, get it painted, get the avionics redone and redo the interior. The was a win/win for both of us. He didn't get a fast plane but it cut his cuts in half and got added capability. I got access to a plane at what I consider a great price and have a new buddy to fly with. Also we both have a plane that runs great and now looks and smells new'ish...

 

[DavidH]

A lot of this is going to be off putting to a seller. Asking questions to gauge honesty, emailing your evaluation and requesting scans of the logbooks is a bit too much.

If I know a plane has damage history and I ask the seller if it has damage history... he tells me no... time to walk. If that offends someone, then I don't want to do business with them anyway.

If the plane is listed for sale at 40% over Vref (just to throw a number out there)... then what should a person do? I want the seller to know exactly what I see as far as valuations are concerned. Shouldn't the seller want to see what I am looking at? One could book a commercial airline ticket (or drive several hours) and spend the day trying to convince the seller that they can't get as much as they have it listed for. I've been asked to do just that. My time is much to valuable to deal with that... which is the same reason I can actually afford to make the purchase.

Why is it too much to ask a seller to scan copies of the logbook to look over? If I am willing to take a day out of my schedule to come to their location to look at their plane... then they should be willing to make a few scanned images at the local Staples. If that's too much trouble, then they aren't looking to sell anyway.

If the plane is just down the road... then things do get a lot easier. I'd like to find one for sale locally that was in good condition and didn't need a lot of work done to it.

 

[James331]

A lot of this is going to be off putting to a seller. Asking questions to gauge honesty, emailing your evaluation and requesting scans of the logbooks is a bit too much.

Requesting scans of logs is standard practice, anyone who won't send logs isn't serious about selling their plane.

I'd almost go as far as to say scans of logs are more important than pictures of the pretty paint job.

 

[OkieAviator]

On the plane I talked about above the logs were in this man purse case deal. I have them organized now in a 4" binder. To get that all scanned is more than a few hours at a local copy shop. 40 years of entries would take some time/ money. If I was dead set on getting the logs then I would ask for the last 5 years.

On the litmus questions I would go in stating that I knew the damage history. If the seller believes you already know about the plane he/she would be less likely to deceive you.

On price I would have a 10 minute conversation and make a list of the features and equipment. You should be able to hear what he/she is emphasizing on and those are the sell points that are driving the perceived value. After that make preliminary offer and gauge the response. At the end of they don't come down that 40% leave on a positive note and ask them to call you if they decide later they can work with you on the price. I did this with a guy who lost his medical and he called me a few months ago. He had valued his interior more than it was worth. He wanted $38k on a plane I was willing to pay $32k for. We weren't way off but I had 3 others that were less and better equipped. He called me to say he would sell for $34k. I apologized and let him know I already bought into a plane, we talked about it and hung up. Maybe he called someone after me and offered to sell for $32k... Who knows.

 

[DavidH]

On the litmus questions I would go in stating that I knew the damage history. If the seller believes you already know about the plane he/she would be less likely to deceive you.

Telling a seller you know about the plane isn't going change their honesty. I am interested in what questions I should be asking but don't know to ask yet... not the ones I already know the answers to. I want to know they are likely telling me the truth when I don't already know the answer.

 

[DavidH]

Requesting scans of logs is standard practice, anyone who won't send logs isn't serious about selling their plane.

I'd almost go as far as to say scans of logs are more important than pictures of the pretty paint job.

A serious buyer will be more interested in the logbooks than anything else (at least I've become that way now... can't speak for everyone). That seems to be where many of the discrepancies I've found have been located.

 

[OkieAviator]

Telling a seller you know about the plane isn't going change their honesty. I am interested in what questions I should be asking but don't know to ask yet... not the ones I already know the answers to. I want to know they are likely telling me the truth when I don't already know the answer.

If you catch them in a lie do you end things at that point? What if it isn't a lie and just a lapse in memory or a misunderstanding of what you were asking?

Be negotiations, dealing with employees, customers or kids... Get the knowns on the table and you can debate those and spend your time getting answers to real questions.

If having scanned versions of 40 year old logs is the norm then it looks like I'm going to have to put my scanner to use....

 

[RyanShort1]

Not sure about the professional title search, just order the FAA CD and review it.

Not fast enough if you are in a hurry on a "deal"

 

[fiveoboy01]

If having scanned versions of 40 year old logs is the norm then it looks like I'm going to have to put my scanner to use....

I've inquired about various aircraft and in several cases, without even asking have received scanned copies of the logs via email from the owner or broker.

 

[DavidH]

If you catch them in a lie do you end things at that point? What if it isn't a lie and just a lapse in memory or a misunderstanding of what you were asking?

Yes, discussions are over at that point. There is no point continuing conversation with a dishonest person. Memory lapses shouldn't be an issue at the price points we're talking about. If they can't remember answers to important facts, it will be extremely convenient to forget the next time an important question comes up.

If having scanned versions of 40 year old logs is the norm then it looks like I'm going to have to put my scanner to use....

...doing that might just save you from having a "memory lapse"

 

[James331]

Not fast enough if you are in a hurry on a "deal"

I don't do hurry.


More folks want my money then his plane.

"I got another guy that was going to give me a deposit today"

I'd just say good luck with the sale and move on.

 

[StinkBug]

If having scanned versions of 40 year old logs is the norm then it looks like I'm going to have to put my scanner to use....

I'd say you are. I just bought my first plane, and the seller was more than happy to send me scans of all 5 logbooks. I wouldn't have spent the money to fly 1000miles to go look at it if they hadn't. Thankfully they assumed as much and asked for my email address before I even had to ask. Many of the planes I looked at online either had the logbooks right there in the ad for download or stated that they were available. If you think this is asking too much I think you're out of touch.

The last 5 years isn't enough on a plane that is probably 40 years old. That's 35 years of unknowns, not something I'm willing to risk.

 

[Henning]

Three has a very good chance of negating One. For most people a basic entry level plane will not be the optimum for their mission.

 

[cgrab]

I would add step 1a: join the type club and learn everything about the plane you are seeking. Download a pre-buy checklist and go inspect a plane to understand the terminology. Find a willing owner or flight school for this. KNow what you are looking for when you go to inspect a plane.