Engine upgrade vs Plane & Panel Swap

L

Leo Langston

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Dec 30, 2016
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148
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llangston1
I have a “grass is always greener” type delimma in front of me and an looking for pros and cons arguments to help me make a decision. I bought my ‘49 Navion with the E-225 and bladder prop in 2018 fully expecting to upgrade to a 520 or 550 rather than putting any big money back into the 225. The engine performs fine and the plane is a decent 130kt cruiser with 60 gal of fuel with a 500 nm range at 4 hr. But at a 2750 gross wt its a 2 person plane with full fuel or a 3-4 person plane with the 40 gal main tanks. So over the years I spent money on upgrading the panel and avionics with Aspen 2000 Pro Max, STEC 55X, 650xi, GNX375, GNC255, GR-30P engine monitor. And now my plane needs a complete interior redo($5-10K?) of course after covid engine prices have gotten absurd so I have been told to budget $100k for a big engine upgrade. Recently another Navion has become available($110k) that has a 700 hr 520, with tip tanks (80 gal total), very nice interior and seats. That plane has a 3150 gross wt. But the panel and avionics aren’t as good as my plane. It has dual G5s, STEC 30, Garmin 355, KX155, Narco VOR in the OBS, L3 transponder and no engine monitor. This plane can cruise at 140 kts at 13-14 gph or 150 kts at 15.5 gph.
So as I see it my choices are do nothing and continue to upgrade my interior and wait til I absolutely have to do something with my engine (1250 SMOH 1998)
Buy this 520 plane and “swap panels or radios” if that is even feasible. Then sell my plane.
Of course finding another hangar while I had 2 planes would be problematic.

So What have others done in a similar situation?
Big engine Navions for sale are not a dime a dozen like other brands so you usually have to strike while the iron is hot.

Comments, Suggestions are welcome.

Thx
Leo
 
Two thoughts occur:

"Swapping the panel" seems impractical purely from a labor hours perspective.

The value of an extra 10-20 kts and the ability to fill the extra two seats is the other major part of the calculation. Realistically, what percentage of the time are you filling those seats? And on what percentage of your flights is another 10-20 kts going to make an appreciable difference to your arrival time?

Only you can know what you value the most, but it sounds like you have a really solid plane right now. Personally, I'd keep the panel and put funds into an engine reserve. Not sure that $100k is a realistic figure. Probably half that. Spend a bit to refresh the interior and enjoy what you have. Figure out the engine thing when the engine tells you it's time.
 
Thoughts;

What is it that you do with the current plane’s panel that you can’t/won’t with the new plane’s? Sounds like all you’d lack is engine monitoring. That’s a “cheap” fix.

What’s the price delta between the the plane you’d sell and the one you’d buy? Math it.

I don’t see engine work getting any cheaper the longer you wait.
 
AvNavCom said:
Two thoughts occur:

"Swapping the panel" seems impractical purely from a labor hours perspective.

The value of an extra 10-20 kts and the ability to fill the extra two seats is the other major part of the calculation. Realistically, what percentage of the time are you filling those seats? And on what percentage of your flights is another 10-20 kts going to make an appreciable difference to your arrival time?

Only you can know what you value the most, but it sounds like you have a really solid plane right now. Personally, I'd keep the panel and put funds into an engine reserve. Not sure that $100k is a realistic figure. Probably half that. Spend a bit to refresh the interior and enjoy what you have. Figure out the engine thing when the engine tells you it's time.
Click to expand...
Most of my flying is local hamburger runs or long trips to the yearly Navion convention or other flyins we have in the south. Now I am using it to get my instrument rating. I have flown it from Houston, Tx to Dayton, OH, Branson, MO, Colorado Springs and recently to Appalachacola, FL. I don’t fill the rear seats on most trips because I know I can’t given the low gross wt. With tip tanks and the big engine the Navion gross wt can be increased up to 3150. However tip tanks are now a rare commodity now in the Navion world until GAMI decides to start building them again. So even if I could just upgrade the engine my gross wt would only be 2850. For most of my recent 500 mi legs I could not fly and still have VFR reserves. I might get there 15-30 min sooner but I would only have 2-6 gal of fuel left rather than 8-10 that I prefer. So a big engine Navion really needs more than 60 gal of gas or you are flying 3 hr legs.
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Thoughts;

What is it that you do with the current plane’s panel that you can’t/won’t with the new plane’s? Sounds like all you’d lack is engine monitoring. That’s a “cheap” fix.

What’s the price delta between the the plane you’d sell and the one you’d buy? Math it.

I don’t see engine work getting any cheaper the longer you wait.
Click to expand...
Off the top of my head I would guess the price difference is $20-30k. My panel and avionics are worth 2-3x what I paid for the plane. When I bought mine I figured upgrades were just a matter of money and not that some items are basically unobtainable now because the STC owner died and no one else is producing the items. That was poor research on my part back in 2018. I can just wait til the engine says something but then I am still looking at a $100K bill for a new engine or I am forced to overhaul the 225 which seems like wasted money to me. And if something ever happens to my Hartzell Hydroselective prop I probably have to upgrade the engine anyway. Prop shops don’t really want to mess with those anymore.

Leo
 
Seems easier to upgrade a panel than get tip tanks and a bug engine. If this is going to be a “forever” and you can afford to keep two around for a while in the current market, I’d go for the airframe capability you want.
 
Leo Langston said:
I have a “grass is always greener” type delimma in front of me and an looking for pros and cons arguments to help me make a decision. I bought my ‘49 Navion with the E-225 and bladder prop in 2018 fully expecting to upgrade to a 520 or 550 rather than putting any big money back into the 225. The engine performs fine and the plane is a decent 130kt cruiser with 60 gal of fuel with a 500 nm range at 4 hr. But at a 2750 gross wt its a 2 person plane with full fuel or a 3-4 person plane with the 40 gal main tanks. So over the years I spent money on upgrading the panel and avionics with Aspen 2000 Pro Max, STEC 55X, 650xi, GNX375, GNC255, GR-30P engine monitor. And now my plane needs a complete interior redo($5-10K?) of course after covid engine prices have gotten absurd so I have been told to budget $100k for a big engine upgrade. Recently another Navion has become available($110k) that has a 700 hr 520, with tip tanks (80 gal total), very nice interior and seats. That plane has a 3150 gross wt. But the panel and avionics aren’t as good as my plane. It has dual G5s, STEC 30, Garmin 355, KX155, Narco VOR in the OBS, L3 transponder and no engine monitor. This plane can cruise at 140 kts at 13-14 gph or 150 kts at 15.5 gph.
So as I see it my choices are do nothing and continue to upgrade my interior and wait til I absolutely have to do something with my engine (1250 SMOH 1998)
Buy this 520 plane and “swap panels or radios” if that is even feasible. Then sell my plane.
Of course finding another hangar while I had 2 planes would be problematic.

So What have others done in a similar situation?
Big engine Navions for sale are not a dime a dozen like other brands so you usually have to strike while the iron is hot.

Comments, Suggestions are welcome.

Thx
Leo
Click to expand...
Dance with the girl you brought to the party.

You engine is not high time, though aged a bit.

Do the oil analysis on the regular.

I would not rush for the engine upgrade at that price unless the change in performance was simply stunning--which it seldom is.

As for the interior--how bad are we talking?
 
AvNavCom said:
Two thoughts occur:

"Swapping the panel" seems impractical purely from a labor hours perspective.

The value of an extra 10-20 kts and the ability to fill the extra two seats is the other major part of the calculation. Realistically, what percentage of the time are you filling those seats? And on what percentage of your flights is another 10-20 kts going to make an appreciable difference to your arrival time?

Only you can know what you value the most, but it sounds like you have a really solid plane right now. Personally, I'd keep the panel and put funds into an engine reserve. Not sure that $100k is a realistic figure. Probably half that. Spend a bit to refresh the interior and enjoy what you have. Figure out the engine thing when the engine tells you it's time.
Click to expand...
The interior would be dead last of my concerns.

And it might be a good time to review the Mike Busch book---pretty sure that is his name and his take on TBOs is a breath of fresh air.

Sheep skin can cover up a lot of years of wear and tear.
 
Leo Langston said:
Off the top of my head I would guess the price difference is $20-30k. My panel and avionics are worth 2-3x what I paid for the plane. When I bought mine I figured upgrades were just a matter of money and not that some items are basically unobtainable now because the STC owner died and no one else is producing the items. That was poor research on my part back in 2018. I can just wait til the engine says something but then I am still looking at a $100K bill for a new engine or I am forced to overhaul the 225 which seems like wasted money to me. And if something ever happens to my Hartzell Hydroselective prop I probably have to upgrade the engine anyway. Prop shops don’t really want to mess with those anymore.

Leo
Click to expand...
Why not look to buy a larger engine core and have it field overhauled at your convince and pocketbook. Then swap the engine in with the appropriate STC, and sell your engine at core value.
 
WJG-GMT-RootBeer said:
The interior would be dead last of my concerns.

And it might be a good time to review the Mike Busch book---pretty sure that is his name and his take on TBOs is a breath of fresh air.

Sheep skin can cover up a lot of years of wear and tear.
Click to expand...
Sure. OP said that his aircraft needs an interior re-do. If that is what he needs to feel happy climbing into the plane, it's money well-spent. The engine reserve has nothing to do with TBO. I'm firmly in the camp of flying an engine until it tells you it needs to be overhauled, which is why I was very annoyed when my own engine needed to be overhauled at 850 hours due to a cam-lobe issue. I plan to fly my overhauled engine well past TBO if I can get away with it, but having an engine reserve is just good practice since surprises happen.

And yes, I own all of MB's books. They're very useful as a relatively new owner.
 
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