Engine Problems when to put down?

[AdamZ]

The engine out thread got me wondering. Sometimes engine issues are not total engine outs at least not right away. Sometimes they give you warnings sometimes they let you know they are sick but not if they are dying.

Where I live in SE PA its a suburban area that gets more populated to the east. Mountainous to the north flat farms to the west then mountainous again as you had toward Pittsburg. KLNS is a big destination for us good restauraunt, great pilot shop only 30 to 40 min depending on wind. Lancaster is FLAT and I mean FLAT like midwest flat. When ever I fly home from LNS or west toward Pittsburg I am very aware of when my options run out should I need to put down.

So lets say you are over flat land lots of farms and your engine starts acting up. Rough or loss of RPM or lets say it sounds ok but Oil pressure drops and temp goes up. The closest airport is either in a populated area to the east or mountainous to the west if thats the way your going.

At what point do you say I am putting this plane down in that farm field and not risking it konking out over the suburbs or trees and hills?

Were not talking a dead engine here were talking one that is still running but with issues. Granted I assume that if you can't maintain altitude because the rpms are so low and you can't glide to a runway you put down. Thats not what I'm talking about. When do you say its better to put down in the field while I still have power than risk the engine dying over a bad area?

 

[Trapper John]

At what point do you say I am putting this plane down in that farm field and not risking it konking out over the suburbs or trees and hills?

If I'm not 100% sure I can glide to an airport, I'll take the farm field.

Here's one where the pilot passed up many square miles of good flat farm fields when the engine went bang. Crashed on the airport grounds, 5 dead:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/GenPDF.asp?id=CHI98FA106&rpt=fi


Trapper John

 

[Rob Schaffer]

Morgantown

In my limited experience,... With respect to your question though, the second something is running rough or isn't right, I'm going to be looking for a suitable landing area while checking the fuel, mags, carb heat, whatever.... If that means I'm out of reach of Wings Field cause I'm out over Norristown or somplace at 2000 feet, I'll circle over those golf courses or large fields to see if I can correct what may be wrong. Of course, the two circles that I might be able to make over this area could have gotten me back to an airport, but that's a chance you have to take, just in case something blows up.

Climbing out of Quakertown last summer in a 152, I think I ingested carb ice or something, as the engine hickup'd and scared me quite a bit. I leveled off immediately and checked everything, while circling slowly to the left. That put me south of UKT, where there was a good chance I could have gone to fields, or limped my way back to RY 11. Everything seemed ok after that, but I climbed up over Pennridge, then went straight to Perkiomen. Every field in sight was being looked at all the way back

 

[Henning]

It depends on the exact situation. Lost some oil pressure and temps went up a bit....or Lost all oil pressure and temp is pegged? The former I'd reduce power, monitor and fly, the latter I'll pull the power to idle now and land. It doesn't take much oil pressure to keep an engine going, and aircraft engines have large bearing surfaces for their power loading, but if I'm not even carrying 15psi, I'm on borrowed time at a power level that will keep me flying. There is also "what noise is it making?" that goes with that because that can either escalate or mitigate my response.

This is the kind of stuff that always makes me wonder why in the hell a non mechanical type person would fly, but then again, there is the "ignorance is bliss" factor. Maybe if I didn't know what I know, I wouldn't know to worry... LOL

 

[Ted]

It really depends on the exact situation, and is hard to tell. The mechanically inclined person who understands what's going on has the advantage here. Like Henning said, I frequently wonder what non-mechanical folk would do. Unfortunately, in several cases I know the answer. For my mom (fortunately in a car) the answer was drive home and then call me up saying the engine was sounding funny and the oil light was on.

It also depends on single vs. twin. If I'm in a twin in a situation where I know my single engine service ceiling is higher than ground level by a safe margin, I'll fly towards the nearest airport. I might shut the engine down depending on other factors as a precaution.

Really, as with most things in flying, the answer is "it depends." Every situation is so different.

 

[SCCutler]

Oil pressure drops significantly, coupled with significant increase in engine temperature, I'm looking for a safe landing spot immediately; the last thing I want is sudden engine seizure, catastrophic failure.

 

[dmccormack]

I don't think you need to be an ME to fly, but some rudimentary troubleshooting knowledge is certainly helpful.

IMHO, the best investment a SE owner can make is in an engine monitor (such as JPI or Insight), and learn how to read and comprehend. This will help in the diagnoses, but --probably more important -- indicate potential trouble long before you're looking for a plowed field.

 

[Henning]

It really depends on the exact situation, and is hard to tell. The mechanically inclined person who understands what's going on has the advantage here. Like Henning said, I frequently wonder what non-mechanical folk would do. Unfortunately, in several cases I know the answer. For my mom (fortunately in a car) the answer was drive home and then call me up saying the engine was sounding funny and the oil light was on.

It also depends on single vs. twin. If I'm in a twin in a situation where I know my single engine service ceiling is higher than ground level by a safe margin, I'll fly towards the nearest airport. I might shut the engine down depending on other factors as a precaution.

Really, as with most things in flying, the answer is "it depends." Every situation is so different.

That brings up an interesting thought for a poll in the SEL vs MEL argument of which is safer, who argues which side more, mechanics or non mechanics. My bet is mechanics will argue for twins more.

 

[ScottM]

Oil pressure drops significantly, coupled with significant increase in engine temperature, I'm looking for a safe landing spot immediately; the last thing I want is sudden engine seizure, catastrophic failure.

I agree. In this case it is pretty clear. Land, land now!

It is harder in more benign situations. I had one where the ALT light came on. Was it just an alternator or was it something more, why did the engine start running rough (my imaginations maybe?), etc.

One I faced recently was that as I was flying a big glob of oil hit my windscreen. That'll get you attention real quick. Engine oil temps were ok as was pressure. I was 7 NM from my home airport, my car, and my mechanic. I was 3NM from a suitable airport. Where and when do you land? I chose to continue towards home. Things were running well and I figured there were farms if I needed them. I planned for the fastest approach to the runway without goofing around with fancy pattern entries, I had 121.5 dialed into comm 2 as well.

When I landed I found the problem, a leaky oil hose that had been installed wrong when the new oil cooler was installed.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Actually, I had almost that exact situation on the right engine of the Baron coming back from Oshkosh last winter. The right engine oil pressure did drop to the yellow arc all at once just after departure. Left engine was fine. Oil temp didn't seem to vary a lot, but did go up slightly. I landed at the next airport and called my mechanic. Based on what I described at high and low RPM and power settings, he felt strongly it was the oil pressure relieve valve (spring loaded valve that lets more oil through at higher pressure setting).

Anyway, after discussing it with him, I flew the plane to Rockford from Portage (where I had landed) to get it worked on. Of course, if the pressure had dropped to zero and temp gone up, I would have shut the right engine down.

In a single, I don't think I would have continued the flight from Portage until a mechanic inspected and opined on that problem. Probably would have wanted it repaired before further flight.

Best,

Dave

 

[gismo]

Like Henning said it depends on what the symptoms are. I would add that if the engine appears to be able to continue (e.g. some oil pressure or oil temp OK, not running so rough that your teeth hurt, etc) and you're currently far from any airport but over acceptable terrain, IMO the best course of action would be to continue flying towards an airport while keeping a suitable landing area in sight. That probably means heading for a rural airport as most major city ones will be surrounded by heavily populated ground not very conducive to safe emergency landings. It would also be a good idea to gradually gain altitude if this can be done without further straining the engine(s) i.e. without significantly increasing the engine temps. If the engine does quit, altitude will be your friend.

On the twin vs single issue, I discovered oil streaming out of the cowl on my right engine while climbing over the middle of Lake Michigan. I chose to continue the flight with both running while keeping a close eye on the oil temp and pressure of that engine rather than return to the departure point or landing early. I was pretty certain that the leak was from the vacuum pump that the FBO at the field I'd departed from had just installed (they forgot to tighten the bolts) and based on that expected the rate of oil loss to be low enough to complete the 2 hr flight without further problems and that's the way it worked out (I was only down 3 quarts when I landed). In a single it would have meant a quick 180 while maintaining/gaining altitude if possible and landing ASAP.

 

[Ted]

That brings up an interesting thought for a poll in the SEL vs MEL argument of which is safer, who argues which side more, mechanics or non mechanics. My bet is mechanics will argue for twins more.

As an engineer and mechanic who owns a twin, I would agree with you.

The thing that most people who argue for SE aircraft seem to state is the problem of recognizing the engine that's failed. The mechanic folk are probably also going to have fewer problems with that. Whenever I've had an engine quit on me (all due to the instructor except for once when I ran the tank dry on my left engine), I had no problems identifying the dead engine.

Lance's story illustrates exactly my point about the twin vs. single in the decision making process. A situation that would cause you to land immediately in a single can become a case of "I'll keep an eye on it" with a twin.

 

[jesse]

I've never had an engine failure. I've had three minor engines incidents that did get my attention though

#1, The throttle jammed at near idle while doing a power off stall in a Beech Sierra. I couldn't get the throttle to budge and wasn't producing enough power to maintain altitude. I had the option of putting it into a field or trying to make the airport. I looked at my rate of descent versus my ETE to the airport and decided I could make the airport. I made it -- but not with much to spare.

#2, Cessna 172 -- the engine lost a ton of RPM and was barely running. I started climbing and looking for a place to put down. It came back and started running ok. I kept climbing, proceeded to a rural airport, and landed.

#3 PA-28-180 -- this wasn't really much of an incident. I was just going into IMC when the engine lost a noticeable amount of power and the RPM was going up and down a few hundred RPM. Informed ATC I was returning to the field immediately and landed without issue.

 

[tonycondon]

what about the time you induced carb ice with the carb heat in the 150?

I've never had an engine failure. I've had three minor engines incidents that did get my attention though

#1, The throttle jammed at near idle while doing a power off stall in a Beech Sierra. I couldn't get the throttle to budge and wasn't producing enough power to maintain altitude. I had the option of putting it into a field or trying to make the airport. I looked at my rate of descent versus my ETE to the airport and decided I could make the airport. I made it -- but not with much to spare.

#2, Cessna 172 -- the engine lost a ton of RPM and was barely running. I started climbing and looking for a place to put down. It came back and started running ok. I kept climbing, proceeded to a rural airport, and landed.

#3 PA-28-180 -- this wasn't really much of an incident. I was just going into IMC when the engine lost a noticeable amount of power and the RPM was going up and down a few hundred RPM. Informed ATC I was returning to the field immediately and landed without issue.

 

[jesse]

what about the time you induced carb ice with the carb heat in the 150?

Oh. Forgot about that. Pulled carb heat and warmed the air up to the perfect carb ice creating temperature.

 

[dmccormack]

I've never had an engine failure. I've had three minor engines incidents that did get my attention though

#1, The throttle jammed at near idle while doing a power off stall in a Beech Sierra. I couldn't get the throttle to budge and wasn't producing enough power to maintain altitude. I had the option of putting it into a field or trying to make the airport. I looked at my rate of descent versus my ETE to the airport and decided I could make the airport. I made it -- but not with much to spare.

#2, Cessna 172 -- the engine lost a ton of RPM and was barely running. I started climbing and looking for a place to put down. It came back and started running ok. I kept climbing, proceeded to a rural airport, and landed.

#3 PA-28-180 -- this wasn't really much of an incident. I was just going into IMC when the engine lost a noticeable amount of power and the RPM was going up and down a few hundred RPM. Informed ATC I was returning to the field immediately and landed without issue.

Good grief -- which WW1 Aerodrome are you flying from?!?!

 

[jesse]

Good grief -- which WW1 Aerodrome are you flying from?!?!

Each incident was a different airplane from completely different FBOs -- all at least a hundred miles apart. Welcome to the rental fleet. I don't consider three minor incidents that big of a deal.

 

[CJones]

After 500+ hours, my only engine 'failure' was self-induced and it was very momentary. Surprisingly enough, apparently aircraft engines need FUEL to keep the prop spinning. Who knew!? Ran one tank "too" dry. Had a few seconds of 'what the heck?'. Switched tanks and we were back to normal. Only took about 15mins for my heart to slide from my throat back into my chest.

What was amazing is how the procedure took over without me having to think about it. My hands were moving controls and switches automatically.

 

[dmccormack]

Each incident was a different airplane from completely different FBOs -- all at least a hundred miles apart. Welcome to the rental fleet. I don't consider three minor incidents that big of a deal.

..the ever-shrinking rental fleet, at that.

There is one C172 for rent within 40 miles of my house.

The last time I flew it was for my instrument test. I parked it and dropped off the key and headed home. My CFI called and asked if I noticed any problems flying back.

"Nope."

"Well, it's on the ramp and all the oil is now pooled in the bottom of the cowling..."

This same airplane had a dying AI. One takeoff under the hood I was turning right on departure as directed and noticed the AI was indicating a 30 degree turn to the left.

A quick scan showed the AI was wrong -- TC, DG, and compass all agreed -- we were turning right. I mentioned this to the CFII with me.

"Yeah, that thing has been acting up..."



I haven't flown it since.

 

[Ted]

The sort of airplanes I've seen available for rent in a lot of places are part of why I own or work with owners. Owners take more pride in their aircraft and work harder to keep them in good shape, plus I've found are more reasonable to deal with in terms of scheduling, problems, etc.

Individual owners who rent out their aircraft seem to me to be the way to go. Now if only I could convince my instructor to let me rent his Navajo...

 

[tonycondon]

i took off the other day and shortly after that i realized i had a major engine problem. it was missing! so i flew 80 miles to the southwest cause i figured there was a really nice cut wheat field there to land in, and there was.

 

[dmccormack]

i took off the other day and shortly after that i realized i had a major engine problem. it was missing! so i flew 80 miles to the southwest cause i figured there was a really nice cut wheat field there to land in, and there was.

Did the big string hanging off the nose clue you in...?

 

[tonycondon]

Did the big string hanging off the nose clue you in...?

actually i don't have a yaw string. i suppose i should get one. i replaced the canopy this spring and i just never got around to getting a new one.

 

[steingar]

hardee har har. No engine problems except some carb ice, but I've just about always owned what I fly, and I am always glad of it. If the mill is still turning I'm looking for an airport, but yeah if I see signs of impending doom I might try and "land out". Hopefully it will never come to that because I try and maintain my aircraft in good working order.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

actually i don't have a yaw string. i suppose i should get one. i replaced the canopy this spring and i just never got around to getting a new one.

I think he meant the big string that attaches you to the tow plane.

 

[dmccormack]

I think he meant the big string that attaches you to the tow plane.

That too!

:smile:

 

[Rob Schaffer]

actually i don't have a yaw string. i suppose i should get one. i replaced the canopy this spring and i just never got around to getting a new one.

Make check payable to "rob's aircraft supplies" for $400.00. I'll provide you with a high quality, highly visible yaw string at any length you require. Complete with aviation adhesive grade silver tape for secure attachment!

S&H additional. But if you act now, I'll double the supply of highly visible yaw string at No Extra Charge!!



LOL

 

[gismo]

i took off the other day and shortly after that i realized i had a major engine problem. it was missing! so i flew 80 miles to the southwest cause i figured there was a really nice cut wheat field there to land in, and there was.

I don't think you had a major engine problem, you threw the engine away when you pulled that big red (supposed to be red anyway) knob. That sounds more like a major brain problem to me.

 

[Everskyward]

My bet is mechanics will argue for twins more.

Mine too. I've known quite a few mechanics who are not thrilled about flying at all.

 

[Chip Sylverne]

Word of caution. Logic would tell you that low oil pressure and rising temp would go hand in hand, but in real life it doesn't necessarily work that way. I was in the situation Henning described in a Cherokee, and did just as he said he would. On short final, oil pressure dropped to 0. Dead sticked it in. Towed it to the ramp and found less than 2 qts in the engine. Low nose on final made the sump go dry. Cracked a ring and blowby blew the oil out the breather.
Oil temp never went up a degree.

 

[Anthony]

Mine too. I've known quite a few mechanics who are not thrilled about flying at all.

That really inspires confidence.

 

[wabower]

I think the answer would include "as flown by whom?" Only one accident out of 5-6 are equipment-induced, not all of those are engine issues. The "accidents looking for a place to happen" are flying all types, so I would expect the mechanics to include the odds of something breaking as well as the odds of getting back on the ground safely after a a failure.

Mechanics who are also pilots understand that most light twins are basically singles for takeoff/climb anyway, so whatever benefits accrue to twin drivers aren't available when they may be needed most.

I wouldn't expect the vote to be one-sided in favor of twins.

That brings up an interesting thought for a poll in the SEL vs MEL argument of which is safer, who argues which side more, mechanics or non mechanics. My bet is mechanics will argue for twins more.

 

[wsuffa]

That really inspires confidence.

Especially when they make such an expression right after annualing the plane.....

 

[gismo]

Especially when they make such an expression right after annualing the plane.....

My mechanic went with me on the first flight after an engine swap. He's a pilot but not multi rated although he's well aware of the downside to losing one on takeoff. I like that kind of faith in his own work.

 

[Bob Noel]

One of my mechanics went with me on the engine breakin following overhaul.
I have a single engine aircraft, so there was definitely a downside of losing
the engine during the flight. (the first flight was a wonderfully boring 45 minutes
above the airport)

 

[Everskyward]

That really inspires confidence.

About a year ago a maintenance guy and I went to take delivery of a brand new airplane so we had to airline out to Wichita from Denver. He knew the name on our tickets said "Frontier" so I guess he was expecting an Airbus. When he saw that it was a Q-400 he said, "It has props! I've never been on an airplane that small!". Doh. He works on King Airs among other things. I asked if he had ever been for a ride on a test flight or something and he said he always declined. Then I reminded him that the airplane we would be riding home on would be smaller than the Q-400. I left out the part that I had never flown a real one before.

This didn't diminish the confidence I had in him as a mechanic as he was always very meticulous and took a real personal interest in the airplane. I just think that some people worry more about things than other people. Also I think that, for some people, when they know a lot about all the things that can go wrong it ends up being psychologically worse than "ignorance is bliss". I've known medical professionals who are hypochondriacs.

 

[Anthony]

I am finding more an more, even people in aviation have an irrrational fear of small planes. I think a turbo prop is a BIG plane, not so with many others.

= good to me

 

[dmccormack]

I am finding more an more, even people in aviation have an irrrational fear of small planes. I think a turbo prop is a BIG plane, not so with many others.

When new passengers or discovery flights ask the safety question, I remind them I can land this airplane in a K-Mart parking lot.

You can't do that with a 757.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

In your scenario, since it's still running and not loosing altitude, I'd slowly spiral climb over the meadows until I had more than enough glide to make the airport then fly for it.

The engine out thread got me wondering. Sometimes engine issues are not total engine outs at least not right away. Sometimes they give you warnings sometimes they let you know they are sick but not if they are dying.

Where I live in SE PA its a suburban area that gets more populated to the east. Mountainous to the north flat farms to the west then mountainous again as you had toward Pittsburg. KLNS is a big destination for us good restauraunt, great pilot shop only 30 to 40 min depending on wind. Lancaster is FLAT and I mean FLAT like midwest flat. When ever I fly home from LNS or west toward Pittsburg I am very aware of when my options run out should I need to put down.

So lets say you are over flat land lots of farms and your engine starts acting up. Rough or loss of RPM or lets say it sounds ok but Oil pressure drops and temp goes up. The closest airport is either in a populated area to the east or mountainous to the west if thats the way your going.

At what point do you say I am putting this plane down in that farm field and not risking it konking out over the suburbs or trees and hills?

Were not talking a dead engine here were talking one that is still running but with issues. Granted I assume that if you can't maintain altitude because the rpms are so low and you can't glide to a runway you put down. Thats not what I'm talking about. When do you say its better to put down in the field while I still have power than risk the engine dying over a bad area?

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Only one accident out of 5-6 are equipment-induced, not all of those are engine issues. The "accidents looking for a place to happen" are flying all types,

You make an excellent point! We all spend a great deal of time carefully pre-flighting an airplane; how many pre-flight the other pilot before flying with them?

Best,

Dave