Engine-Out Practice in Complex

[spiderweb]

I think it is important to practice engine outs in an aircraft with an prop control with the prop set at different detents--at least full in, and full out. Important to know the differing glide characteristics.

CFIs, do you teach this? (If not, I you might consider it.)

 

[MachFly]

I don't know anyone that teaches that.

But why though? I can kinda see that you'd want to try it once to see the difference. But if you lose the engine, in most singles the prop will just go to low pitch and that's it.

 

[spiderweb]

I don't know anyone that teaches that.

But why though? I can kinda see that you'd want to try it once to see the difference. But if you lose the engine, in most singles the prop will just go to low pitch and that's it.

That hasn't been my experience in the C182, Trinnie, and Saratoga, though I haven't practiced an engine out with the engine ACTUALLY out--always at idle. With those birds, there is a noticeable difference in glide distance with the prop pulled back.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm pretty much with McFly on this. If you can control the pitch, you're going to pull it all the way back to high pitch for max glide range, and this is something which is a law of aerodynamics which you don't need to do any flight testing to prove. If you can't control pitch, it's going full flat, and there's nothing you can do about it. And I don't think the difference between full flat and high pitch is enough that you can really learn enough about your plane's glide characteristics in the different configurations to make it worth trying first to figure out an appropriate power setting to simulate each, and then practicing with each.

 

[spiderweb]

I'm pretty much with McFly on this. If you can control the pitch, you're going to pull it all the way back to high pitch for max glide range, and this is something which is a law of aerodynamics which you don't need to do any flight testing to prove. If you can't control pitch, it's going full flat, and there's nothing you can do about it. And I don't think the difference between full flat and high pitch is enough that you can really learn enough about your plane's glide characteristics in the different configurations to make it worth trying first to figure out an appropriate power setting to simulate each, and then practicing with each.

Defer to your experience on this; but does the engine idling affect it?

 

[poadeleted20]

Defer to your experience on this; but does the engine idling affect it?

Since the question was "engine-out", my comments were based on zero power being developed. Of course, any power at all is better than no power at all, but I still think pulling the prop full back/high pitch will be your best course of action at very low power.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

I would pull the prop back on the Power Off 180's to see the difference. And boy, it made a huge difference. More than I would have thought to imagine.

With the prop pulled back, you can almost fly a normal pattern whereas with it forward, it's a constant turn to the threshold with the wings-level roll being right before the flare.

 

[jordane93]

In the POH for the Arrow I fly, it says to put the prop control in Full Decrease for engine out and that's how I've practiced my engine out emergencies (along with other stuff). It will also give you the best glide, like Ron says

 

[MachFly]

In the POH for the Arrow I fly, it says to put the prop control in Full Decrease for engine out and that's how I've practiced my engine out emergencies (along with other stuff). It will also give you the best glide, like Ron says

Yes but you can't do that when you actually lose the engine.

 

[MachFly]

That hasn't been my experience in the C182, Trinnie, and Saratoga

What do you mean?

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes but you can't do that when you actually lose the engine.

Depends on what happened. If the crankshaft broke, you lose oil pressure, and the blades will go flat on their own no matter what you do. OTOH, if you just ran yourself out of gas, the windmilling engine will produce enough oil pressure to drive the prop blades where you want.

 

[timwinters]

the windmilling engine will produce enough oil pressure to drive the prop blades where you want.

That's the way it is on my 182. I know for real.

 

[Luvrv8]

The 182 I fly goes to low pitch around 1700 RPM and the Cardinal is around 1900 RPM. I too have to side with Machfly on this. It takes oil pressure on those engines to move the prop away from low pitch.

 

[MachFly]

Depends on what happened. If the crankshaft broke, you lose oil pressure, and the blades will go flat on their own no matter what you do. OTOH, if you just ran yourself out of gas, the windmilling engine will produce enough oil pressure to drive the prop blades where you want.

Well...okay I guess. I don't normally think of running out of fuel as a scenario for losing an engine, because that's one thing that I can avoid, I'm a lot more concerned with scenarios that are out of my control.


Actually. What's better, a windmilling engine with a high pitch prop or a stopped engine with a low pitch prop? I'd say in most cases the stopped prop will create less drag.

 

[LDJones]

I think it is important to practice engine outs in an aircraft with an prop control with the prop set at different detents--at least full in, and full out. Important to know the differing glide characteristics.

CFIs, do you teach this? (If not, I you might consider it.)

That's routinely done in Commercial training, which is done in complex airplane and included power-off 180 accuracy landings. Experimenting with various prop options can be mixed in.

 

[spiderweb]

I would pull the prop back on the Power Off 180's to see the difference. And boy, it made a huge difference. More than I would have thought to imagine.

With the prop pulled back, you can almost fly a normal pattern whereas with it forward, it's a constant turn to the threshold with the wings-level roll being right before the flare.

That's why I practiced both in the birds I mention above. But I see Ron's point--just always pull it all the way back (I guess unless you are too high and already have flaps all the way down--you could use the prop as a brake).

 

[poadeleted20]

Well...okay I guess. I don't normally think of running out of fuel as a scenario for losing an engine, because that's one thing that I can avoid, I'm a lot more concerned with scenarios that are out of my control.

Nevertheless, there are quite a few engine failure modes where the engine is still producing oil pressure but not thrust. As an instructor, I need to cover all those bases.

Actually. What's better, a windmilling engine with a high pitch prop or a stopped engine with a low pitch prop? I'd say in most cases the stopped prop will create less drag.

Hard to say, but you're not going to have a choice in the matter if it happens. Either you can get high pitch and you'll select it, or you'll be stuck with flat pitch, but then you'll fly the best you can with whichever you've got.

 

[MachFly]

Nevertheless, there are quite a few engine failure modes where the engine is still producing oil pressure but not thrust. As an instructor, I need to cover all those bases.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you shouldn't teach students the different. I'm just saying when I practice engine outs myself (for my own purpose), I prefer to practice the worse scenario that creates more drag. If during a real engine failure I'll have the control of the prop everything will be easier for me, yet I'll still be fully proficient for the draggiest scenario.

 

[timwinters]

Well...okay I guess. I don't normally think of running out of fuel as a scenario for losing an engine, because that's one thing that I can avoid, I'm a lot more concerned with scenarios that are out of my control.

There are other reasons why an engine fails but keeps revolving. In my case the mechanic left the mixture cable loose at the carburetor and when I started to lean at 6,500' the cable came loose, the carb was pulled to idle cut-off and I was a glider pilot!

 

[MachFly]

There are other reasons why an engine fails but keeps revolving. In my case the mechanic left the mixture cable loose at the carburetor and when I started to lean at 6,500' the cable came loose, the carb was pulled to idle cut-off and I was a glider pilot!

Okay but because you had control of the prop the glide was easier for you. Had you not been able to control the prop the glide would have been as difficult as in training. Right?

 

[dans2992]

Is this why most twins fall like a rock when power is brought to idle?

 

[timwinters]

Okay but because you had control of the prop the glide was easier for you. Had you not been able to control the prop the glide would have been as difficult as in training. Right?

Actually, it was a dannnnnnged good thing I had control of the prop because I hadn't owned my 182 but for a few months when this happened and hadn't practiced engine outs much. I had practiced engine outs in my 172 far more than I had in the 182 and the 182 dropped like a rock comparatively speaking!

But I agree with your theory that it's better to practice with the prop full in. That way you have the worst case scenario implanted.

 

[MachFly]

Actually, it was a dannnnnnged good thing I had control of the prop because I hadn't owned my 182 but for a few months when this happened and hadn't practiced engine outs much. I had practiced engine outs in my 172 far more than I had in the 182 and the 182 dropped like a rock comparatively speaking!

But I agree with your theory that it's better to practice with the prop full in. That way you have the worst case scenario implanted.

Looks like you did a damn good job.

 

[MachFly]

Is this why most twins fall like a rock when power is brought to idle?

I wouldn't quite say that. Twins have full feathering props which should actually help with glide. I have a theory as to why you may think that they fall like a rock, but I don't have a real answer for your question.
Twins are generally heavier than most singles and as such have a higher best glide speed. That speed is almost never published which allowed the possibility for the pilot to pick a completely wrong speed and end up with a crappy glide ratio.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

There is a Bellanca owner who has done engine shut-down flight tests with the prop control at various positions, and he reports when the prop is moving, there is a significant drag with the prop control all the way in vs the prop control pulled back. I must try to find the post to see what or if he said about a stationary prop.
(I have met this owner many times and can vouch for the truthfulness of his nature, and that he is not exaggerating when he says he turned his engine off at altitude, and did these gliding tests.)

 

[dans2992]

I wouldn't quite say that. Twins have full feathering props which should actually help with glide. I have a theory as to why you may think that they fall like a rock, but I don't have a real answer for your question.

Twins are generally heavier than most singles and as such have a higher best glide speed. That speed is almost never published which allowed the possibility for the pilot to pick a completely wrong speed and end up with a crappy glide ratio.

Yes, but they don't feather when brought to idle, they feather when the feather position is selected on the prop control, or oil pressure is lost.

 

[MachFly]

Yes, but they don't feather when brought to idle, they feather when the feather position is selected on the prop control.

I didn't realize that you were talking about idle, thought you meant off.
In that case certain twins use props for braking, also if the gear is down it's very un-aerodynamic.

Are you talking about any specific twin or twins in general?

I wouldn't say that most twins that I've flown can't glide.

 

[dans2992]

I didn't realize that you were talking about idle, thought you meant off.
In that case certain twins use props for braking, also if the gear is down it's very un-aerodynamic.

Are you talking about any specific twin or twins in general?

I wouldn't say that most twins that I've flown can't glide.

The only twin I've flown is a Seneca II, and it's basically 20-inches and blue line plus 10 until short final (landing assured).

Blue line + 10 seems awfully fast, but bringing the props to idle slows things down quick!

 

[MachFly]

The only twin I've flown is a Seneca II, and it's basically 20-inches and blue line plus 10 until short final (landing assured).

Blue line + 10 seems awfully fast, but bringing the props to idle slows things down quick!

It doesn't exactly drop like a rock, just slows down quickly. I bet you had gear and flaps down which procedure quite a lot of drag, then you cut your power with the prop levers forward which produced even more braking. So that's sounds fine for a seneca.
If you kept it cleat and props feathered it would have glided much better.

I haven't flown a seneca II for at least a year and have very little time in it, so if someone is here who is familiar please confirm the above.

 

[Dav8or]

There is a guy over on the MooneySpace forums that actually went out and tested and recorded the results of all these questions. Engine idle vs. actually dead. Prop windmilling vs. stopped. Here is a link to his blog.

The long and the short of it is, the engine idling does make a difference in glide performance and engine off, prop stopped is by far the best glide performance. However, to stop the prop requires you to enter very slow flight and it's a personal decision if you want to take on that challenge during an actual emergency. Me personally, no.

His findings showed that practicing engine out glides with the engine idling and the prop in the full rear, course pitch, produced pretty much the same glide performance as a windmilling dead engine in full forward fine pitch. A dead windmilling engine in full course pitch will do a little better, but for the sake of practice without actually killing the engine, do it idle and full course and plan for that sort of performance. Then on the actual day of emergency, you'll be pleasantly surprised with even greater glide range with either the prop in full course, or a stopped prop.

 

[Challenged]

I have a three blade prop on my Sierra and if I pull the prop all the way back the difference is dramatic..it's almost like taking off speed brakes or something. I did some tests a while back on actual glide ratios with the prop full forward or full back; will have to look those numbers up.

 

[brcase]

There is a guy over on the MooneySpace forums that actually went out and tested and recorded the results of all these questions. Engine idle vs. actually dead. Prop windmilling vs. stopped. Here is a link to his blog.

The long and the short of it is, the engine idling does make a difference in glide performance and engine off, prop stopped is by far the best glide performance. However, to stop the prop requires you to enter very slow flight and it's a personal decision if you want to take on that challenge during an actual emergency. Me personally, no.

His findings showed that practicing engine out glides with the engine idling and the prop in the full rear, course pitch, produced pretty much the same glide performance as a windmilling dead engine in full forward fine pitch. A dead windmilling engine in full course pitch will do a little better, but for the sake of practice without actually killing the engine, do it idle and full course and plan for that sort of performance. Then on the actual day of emergency, you'll be pleasantly surprised with even greater glide range with either the prop in full course, or a stopped prop.

My experience agrees with this. The difference in performance between an idling engine and a windmilling engine is barely detectable is most aircraft single engine aircraft(there are always exceptions).

Unless the manual says differently (Vikings and some Arrows) I usually practice engine out procedures with the prop control full forward staying in the middle of the performance envelope. If I need a longer glide I will pull the prop control back. If I am high I will add flaps and/or slip.

Brian

 

[spiderweb]

Actually, it was a dannnnnnged good thing I had control of the prop because I hadn't owned my 182 but for a few months when this happened and hadn't practiced engine outs much. I had practiced engine outs in my 172 far more than I had in the 182 and the 182 dropped like a rock comparatively speaking!

But I agree with your theory that it's better to practice with the prop full in. That way you have the worst case scenario implanted.

But that's my point--I think it is better to train at least in, middle, and out. We train with full flaps, partial flaps, no flaps; we train slips to lose altitude, S-turns to lose altitude; so why practice only one way of landing with the prop control?

Most CFIs I've flow with like to practice at least full in, and full out.

 

[MAKG1]

I tried this first during my initial complex checkout, in a Cardinal RG. Throttle to idle, carb heat, pitch for best glide. A minute later, pull the prop all the way out. Retrim for best glide (and it takes quite a bit). Then drop the gear and get all the drag back....

 

[timwinters]

Speaking of best glide. I was taught a trick early in my training; a properly rigged 152, 172, or 182 will settle in very close to best glide if you simply roll the trim all the way aft. This saves one helluva lot of time and tweaking. Time you need for other tasks when you have a true emergency.

I can't speak to any other planes but it's worked on every Cessna I've tried it on...but admittedly that's a mere four total.

 

[Doggtyred]

I don't know anyone that teaches that.

But why though? I can kinda see that you'd want to try it once to see the difference. But if you lose the engine, in most singles the prop will just go to low pitch and that's it.

Know your plane. If its a hydraulic prop on a single, yes when the engine really craps out its most likely going to go full fine/flat on you and will add lots of drag.

But for those of you who have an electric prop or have rolled your own experimental and have a prop that goes coarse when you lose pressure, or feathers,.... DO practice your engine outs with the most coarse pitch you can come up with in flight. It can make the difference in being on the runway and simply being near the airport when you get on the ground.

 

[RoscoeT]

I don't know anyone that teaches that.

Well I sure do. Lots of aerobatic instructors. I figured since you are supposedly into aerobatics, that you would be tuned into that. Most acro props go to high pitch with oil pressure loss.

 

[Henning]

Well...okay I guess. I don't normally think of running out of fuel as a scenario for losing an engine, because that's one thing that I can avoid, I'm a lot more concerned with scenarios that are out of my control.


Actually. What's better, a windmilling engine with a high pitch prop or a stopped engine with a low pitch prop? I'd say in most cases the stopped prop will create less drag.

Stopped will be less drag by a good margin.