Engine out at 400ft! - Decide where to land

Your decision would be

  • A) Right 90 deg - Land on road

    Votes: 9 11.3%

  • B) Right < 90 deg - Land in field

    Votes: 56 70.0%

  • C) Left 90 deg - Ditch in water

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • D) Straight to left 90 deg - Land in yards or road

    Votes: 10 12.5%

  • E) Impossible turn

    Votes: 3 3.8%

  • F) Other

    Votes: 2 2.5%
  • Total voters
    80
skidoo

skidoo

Line Up and Wait
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skidoo
I should have a plan for if this ever occurs. I am wondering what others would choose. The aircraft is single engine, rate of climb 1000ft/min or less. Normal roll out not less than 500ft. So, in reference to the attached photo, the takeoff is normal, but at 400ft AGL (at the red circle in the photo) the engine quits and you must set it down. Do you choose:

A) Turn Right 90 deg and set it down on a road.
B Turn less than 90 deg right and set it down in the field. ( may be rough but no power lines)
C) Turn left 90 deg and ditch in the water.
D) Go straight to left 90 deg and attempt the road or yards. (risk is homes and power lines)
E) Attempt the impossible turn. But not necessary for a full 180 to set down, continuing turn on the ground if necessary. (Risk is the proverbial stall/spin, or hitting buildings if the turn isn't tight enough.)
F) Another better option you see.
 

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I can maybe see B or D...maybe. The others, not so much. Just fly land it straight ahead into something soft. (Soft is a relative term) I don't know how deep that water is, but ditching in a non retract probably isn't going to be much fun, especially in Montana this time of year.
 
B or D after I saw the picture
 
I'm thinking "B" from the limited information available - but I'd have to be there.

No way, no how, I am making it back to the field from 400'.
 
Arbiter419 said:
I can maybe see B or D...maybe. The others, not so much. Just fly land it straight ahead into something soft. (Soft is a relative term) I don't know how deep that water is, but ditching in a non retract probably isn't going to be much fun, especially in Montana this time of year.
Click to expand...

Water on the airport side is 20 to 40 ft deep, on the far side, it is shallow (swampy) exposed mud in winter, 5ft or less in Summer.
 
Depending on the plane, 400' isn't necessarily 'Impossible Turn' territory, but given a viable field at <90 to the right, it wouldn't be the best option regardless.
 
Sad thing is, we have to vote before we can see the scenario.

Based on what I normally fly and experience, I can turn around from 200ft AGL in a glider.
400ft is the minimum with my tow plane if no one is on tow. It they are on tow, I'll feed them the rope and may not have my full 400ft to do something. Where I fly, no obstructions, I'm going for some desert tracks left or right of centerline.

I've done the maneuver in a real emergency from 800ft in a T-41B. 180 turn around was no problem.
 
I like B... out of the choices given.
But looking at that huge swath of grass just NE of the runway, I think I'd turn about 120 degrees left and try to get over the buildings to land on that grass. Might be able to make right turn to line up, maybe not. Wind could be a problem, but there's a lot more room there than the other choices. Looks fairly flat and smooth, too.
If, as I passed through 120 degrees, it didn't look like I'd clear the buildings, I'd keep turning and try to land on the grass along the east edge of the runway. Or that parallel taxiway. Neither would require a turn more than 180 degrees. Downwind? Most likely. But if that runway's at least 2000 feet long, that's already double your 500-foot rollout minimum, assuming you touch down just past the taxiway (which appears to be about halfway down the runway). If I landed too long, by the time I rolled into the brush along the water there, I'd be going pretty slow (and standing on the brakes, LOL).
All of this is assuming, of course, that I have this plan already, and execute it immediately... not when I'm sinking over the river. :D
 
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B is your huckleberry. ;)

Since you know the road is there at A you could turn toward B and if the road doesn't have power lines or other obstructions -- and if you see in real-time that you still have enough altitude and energy to continue the turn and line up, fine.

But I doubt you'd react by the point you circled as the engine failure point either. More like over the numbers.

That makes even B, a 90 degree turn.

Biggest open space without people or man-made obstacles seems like B from the photo given.
 
B or D depends on wind. It's never going to be blowing right down the runway. You turn into the wind if you have enough altitude.
 
skidoo said:
A) Turn Right 90 deg and set it down on a road.
B Turn less than 90 deg right and set it down in the field. ( may be rough but no power lines)
C) Turn left 90 deg and ditch in the water.
D) Go straight to left 90 deg and attempt the road or yards. (risk is homes and power lines)
E) Attempt the impossible turn. But not necessary for a full 180 to set down, continuing turn on the ground if necessary. (Risk is the proverbial stall/spin, or hitting buildings if the turn isn't tight enough.)
F) Another better option you see.
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Depending on the wind I'd go for B or D. At 400 AGL you're going to have a hard time getting much further than 90 degrees and the water is a very bad choice for several reasons most of which involve your inability to breathe underwater. Turning once on the ground isn't likely to work out well either unless you're going so slowly that you might as well just dodge anything substantial while generally heading in the same direction as you were going when you touched down. If the wind was from the left I'd choose D over B if it meant 10 kt or more difference in touchdown speed based on what I can see in the picture.

Keep in mind that your primary goal at that point has nothing to do with saving the airplane, the only reason to choose more hospitable terrain is because of the correlation between impact forces and survivability. If you did attempt a left 180 to land on the airport you need to make the turn with 45° bank at something close to your normal approach speed and be ready to unload the wings (roll level and/or release back pressure) at the slightest hint of a stall because if you do stall you do not have enough altitude to recover and the impact is likely fatal. You also would have to roll level at or before reaching about 30 AGL regardless of where that leaves your heading. I'd also avoid the road because you'll have no options should a vehicle get in the way.
 
In most light singles, I'd choose the fence/trees at the end of a downwind field to an upwind neighborhood unless the winds were a significant (say >15-20kts) value and the field very short, over 500-600' I'm liking field still. Poles, cars, trucks, and houses aren't high on survivability; ending out meadows into the forest actually has surprising results. I've cleaned up both sets of scenes.
 
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Regardless what you decide to do, you need to commit to it immediately, that's why we watch the surroundings when we land (if we can given night & IMC) so we can brief ourselves on the options before take off. Once you commit, note the significant hazards with regards to your perspective and your aiming point and never look at them again, you focus on exactly where you want to go and use your peripheral vision to watch for movement intruding into your path. Where you focus is where your hands will take you. Same as flying under the phone wire at the end of a spray run, once you see the horizon (or note it moving up in the windscreen in territory with uneven terrain) you never look at the wire again, you focus on your ground path and clearance because you know you will pass under.

Also, if you answer "Impossible Turn", you need to practice it to proficiency and keep it in tune. In order for it to be effective it has to be initiated immediately. The more comfortable you are slow and sinking in a turn, low, looking at trees pulling Gs with the stall horn on, the better off you will be, because that's what it is. Best result IIRC will be at best glide speed pulling back into the stall warning.

You do not want to be conducting this maneuver for the first time when you are trying to pull a save out of your ass.
 
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Plan on 3-5 seconds before you actually do something.

There is a moment of "Hunh? What just happened?" that eats into your options, I don't care how uber-piloto you may be.

When my engine died I was about 1200' AGL.

In the Chief I'm landing somewhere within 60 degrees left or right of runway centerline. I'm touching down in the 35 MPG range, plus I'm going to intentionally ground loop, so there's not much ground roll required.

With obstacles on the ground, I'll aim between the cars, trees, poles.

If landing on a road, I'll get as low as I can as fast as I can to stay below overhanging wires. That's really low, so a practice run 5' above a runway once in a while is good practice to get used to the speed.
 
Without sitting in the seat, I can't tell much. From what I can tell from the diagram I like B or D.
 
B is my choice. Less turning than others, open area, dry.
 
Henning said:
Depending on the plane, 400' isn't necessarily 'Impossible Turn' territory, but given a viable field at <90 to the right, it wouldn't be the best option regardless.
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In a motorglider, yes, in one of those LSA kites, maybe, but not in a "real" airplane. Anyone who says they can, let them take you up 2000 feet above something that simulates a runway, slow to Vy, climb 400 feet at Vy, cut the engine, and then try to get turned around and realigned with the "runway" before they get back down to 2000 AGL. You'll see why I suggest trying it at 2000 AGL.
 
Ron Levy said:
In a motorglider, yes, in one of those LSA kites, maybe, but not in a "real" airplane. Anyone who says they can, let them take you up 2000 feet above something that simulates a runway, slow to Vy, climb 400 feet at Vy, cut the engine, and then try to get turned around and realigned with the "runway" before they get back down to 2000 AGL. You'll see why I suggest trying it at 2000 AGL.
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In my LSA kite, I would go for B. Roads are, in general, bad ideas if you have other options - wires, signs, etc. Water? Nope. D? Might be too far. U turn? Could be done, but B doesn't look that bad. Is that a taxi way under the letter E? That would be easier than the runway.

What do you do if taking off to the North?

Note: Stall / spin comes form pulling, not turning.
 
B, based on available info...

If you tried to make it to D and couldn't (assuming you're taking off into the wind here, so you'd be fighting a headwind without power), crashing into the cliff face would suck.
 
Ron Levy said:
Whatever you say, Dan. If you'd like to do that demo I described in your Chief, just come on down to SBY and we'll try it in the North Practice Area.
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You're the one who made the distinction between "real" and other airplanes.

:rolleyes:

I've practiced turnbacks in the Chief many times.

400' of altitude loss is typical to get back to the airport (not necessarily the runway).

In the A36 and C205 I used 800' AGL as my "Fly straight ahead" line. Any less than 800' and I was going straight. Any more and with an aggressive effort in normal winds I'd make it back to the airport -- not necessarily the runway.

It's interesting that students and low time pilots sweat landings, where the truly risky maneuver is takeoff.
 
dmccormack said:
You're the one who made the distinction between "real" and other airplanes.
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I was speaking of Standard category aircraft of the Airplane class, as opposed to LSA's and motorgliders. By that standard, your Chief is a "real" airplane.

I've practiced turnbacks in the Chief many times.

400' of altitude loss is typical to get back to the airport (not necessarily the runway).
Click to expand...
Then it's not the "Impossible Turn" scenario as described by Prof. Rogers in his paper of that title, or as discussed above (getting back to the runway in the picture at the top of this thread), and it will also depend a lot on the size and shape of the airport.

In the A36 and C205 I used 800' AGL as my "Fly straight ahead" line. Any less than 800' and I was going straight. Any more and with an aggressive effort in normal winds I'd make it back to the airport -- not necessarily the runway.
Click to expand...
That sounds about right and is consistent with Prof. Rogers flight tests in an A36.

It's interesting that students and low time pilots sweat landings, where the truly risky maneuver is takeoff.
Click to expand...
That's a subject about which a book might be written.;)
 
dmccormack said:
In the Chief I'm landing somewhere within 60 degrees left or right of runway centerline. I'm touching down in the 35 MPG range, plus I'm going to intentionally ground loop, so there's not much ground roll required.
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You worry about fuel economy at a time like that? What are, you a prius-driver?

:goofy::goofy:

I know you meant MPH, it just hit my funny bone.
 
If I bore right, I'd have to land within the Sheriff's Dept. Shooting Range.
If I bore left, I'd have to land in the new assembly building for the Eclipse 500.
Better to head straight on and mow down some cactus.
 
how do you figure Tim? he has the Lycoming engine. One of the benefits of it being underpowered is that it also consumes less fuel. i'm guessing 80 mph on 4 gph?
 
You may be right... I'm thinking in knots to start... but I don't think he gets 80 at 4 GPH... maybe 6 GPH?

If in fact he can get 20 MPG, I'm gonna get him a Prius sticker for his plane!
 
Too many variables. A lot of this depends on wind, weight, temperature, etc, etc. Don't turn back. You'd be way better off taking the water then you would be attempting to turn back.
 
Be happy you have a choice, some airports have little or none at 400'. That is the one thing I don't like about my home airport KMYF, it's a real crap shoot if the noise stops right after takeoff.

John
 
Thanks every one! I the overwhelming majority chose B. After studying further, I have decided B as well. It appears that the photo has some compression distortion from the zoom. I was first thinking that a viable option was perhaps turning back and figuring on touch down in the ramp area (assuming no aircraft were parked there) thereby needing just a 135 deg turn and then continue turning on the ground along the taxiway or grass in front of the hangars.

But after re-looking from above on a google shot, I can see the the turn would have to be very very steep. My normal downwind is over the bridge and there isn't much base leg. In addition, I can see that the angles just won't work. Also, options A and B are actually significantly less than 90 deg. C would actually require more than 90 deg, and D is just riskier, maybe not make the glide and hit the cliff, power lines, etc... Also, when there are cross winds, they are often from the southwest. So, with B, I would be more likely to turn into the wind and land slightly uphill.

So "B" is my choice!! Thanks guys! Now, as time passes and altitude is gained, B is no longer viable and I'll have to study that for other options.

I'll start another thread for the other direction.
 

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