Engine Monitor - need help

murphey

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murphey
The JPI 730 was installed last week, but due to weather I've only had one trip around the pattern to check it out.

The JPI manual goes into detail about setting LOP/ROP in cruise but nothing about takeoff. I've spent 15 years doing runup using the single EGT and tach so this is all new.

1. should I be using the JPI on the runup or rely soley on the tach?
2. if using the JPI, what kind of numbers should I be looking for on the JPI?

Warning Will Robinson! runup is usually at 5500 ft MSL on an O-360 engine.
 
Got 'er done, eh! Cool.

(I have no idea, but you were talking about getting the JPI done at the Poker Run lunch, so congrats on the new toy!)
 
On the runup, you should primarily look for significant differences in the cylinders when you do your mag checks. That will tell you if you have a fouled plug or other problem, and if so, on WHICH cylinder. So you should absolutely look at your tach AND check the JPI as well.

Same thing in flight - the really nice feature of the instrument is that you can see all the cylinders and spot a difference early. You'll get a feel for which cylinder is hottest on the ground and in flight (they can be different) and the "normal" behavior of the engine. Then when something changes you'll know and can investigate.
 
The JPI 730 was installed last week, but due to weather I've only had one trip around the pattern to check it out.

The JPI manual goes into detail about setting LOP/ROP in cruise but nothing about takeoff. I've spent 15 years doing runup using the single EGT and tach so this is all new.

1. should I be using the JPI on the runup or rely soley on the tach?
2. if using the JPI, what kind of numbers should I be looking for on the JPI?

Warning Will Robinson! runup is usually at 5500 ft MSL on an O-360 engine.

On runup, now that I have such toys, I look for the proper RPM drop and lack of roughness, but I also like to make sure the EGT's all rise somewhat consistently when on one mag. That's about all I'm doing differently on the runup, though those who've had them longer may have some other tricks.

The other thing I've been doing is leaning in the climb, using a Deakin technique: Check EGT shortly after takeoff, and then simply keep leaning to that EGT (usually ~1320 for me). Depending on your technique for leaning for takeoff up there in the thin air, though, you may come up with a better technique that includes the ground leaning.
 
On the runup, you should primarily look for significant differences in the cylinders when you do your mag checks. That will tell you if you have a fouled plug or other problem, and if so, on WHICH cylinder. So you should absolutely look at your tach AND check the JPI as well.

A point of note: Most people, upon getting an engine monitor, don't really know what "significant" means. I'd just look for an EGT rise on all cylinders. Note that it will take a few seconds. Set the tach and mixture as you normally do. Then when you drop a mag, watch the EGT bars - they should all go up within 5 seconds or so. Put it back to both, you'll see them go back down. Repeat for the other mag. This is not a substitue for the RPM drop - it's simply additional information.

Same thing in flight - the really nice feature of the instrument is that you can see all the cylinders and spot a difference early. You'll get a feel for which cylinder is hottest on the ground and in flight (they can be different) and the "normal" behavior of the engine. Then when something changes you'll know and can investigate.

I would take this with a good amount of caution. CHTs by nature have a high degree of variability. On a cold day in a descent they'll be low, on a hot day in the climb they'll be high. If you have a 6 cylinder engine, each of the 6 will be different. Between the Aztec and 310, I have 4 6-cylinder engines that are monitored, and the CHTs do vary significantly on all the engines. So, make sure you understand the difference between a deviation from "normal" and standard responses to changes in the environment.

What you should do is use the engine monitor to help you determine when you need to adjust your mixture to keep the CHTs happy. You didn't say what kind of airplane this was on. Lycoming Service Instruction 1094D states that you should keep CHTs below 400F for maximum service life, so that's what I do on the Aztec (this is harder to do in the summer even with cowl flaps, in the winter it's easy). On the 310 (which has Continentals), I aim for 380, because that's the number my Continental-flying brethren have said works well for them.

You will get a lot of benefit out of engine diagnostics, as you can now easily determine which plug is fouled (if one is), and a host of other issues that may crop up. It is worth every penny to be able to tell my mechanic "The spark plug connected to the left mag on the #2 cylinder on the right engine is fouled."

On runup, now that I have such toys, I look for the proper RPM drop and lack of roughness, but I also like to make sure the EGT's all rise somewhat consistently when on one mag. That's about all I'm doing differently on the runup, though those who've had them longer may have some other tricks.

That's what I look for, too (as stated above), and think that's the best use of it on the runup.

The other thing I've been doing is leaning in the climb, using a Deakin technique: Check EGT shortly after takeoff, and then simply keep leaning to that EGT (usually ~1320 for me). Depending on your technique for leaning for takeoff up there in the thin air, though, you may come up with a better technique that includes the ground leaning.

That technique works, but the biggest thing to keep an eye on in the climb are CHTs.
 
Murphey is probably looking for guidance on leaning for max power during the run-up. The EGT she used to have was simple to use but now that she has four EGTs, best power is not so clear.

I'd suggest looking for all four cylinders to be at least 75 ROP during the max power turn up.

With that said, I never had more than a single EGT probe when operating an O-360 up here so I really don't know.
 
Murphey is probably looking for guidance on leaning for max power during the run-up. The EGT she used to have was simple to use but now that she has four EGTs, best power is not so clear.

I'd suggest looking for all four cylinders to be at least 75 ROP during the max power turn up.

With that said, I never had more than a single EGT probe when operating an O-360 up here so I really don't know.

The difference between a single-point EGT and multi-point is the extra data which results in extra confusion.

I wouldn't worry about it too terribly. I would probably just put the mixture knob to the same location I was doing before and leave it at that.
 
Actually the best ground test (by best I mean the one that puts the most load on each mag) is LOP. Yep. Set the mixture at the leanest possible to reach the RPM at which you want to do the mag check - 1800, 2000, whatever. Set the JPI on Normalize where the EGT bars are even. Then check the mags. The rise will be very apparent. If one bar does not go up, you probably have a fouled plug on that cylinder. If none go up, the mag is bad.
Actually an even better test is to do this LOP at altitude. Now you have a real load on each mag and will get a much better determination of the mag's health.
To Ted's point about "significant" the Normalize feature is great. If a cylinder's EGT or CHT changes significantly up or down in flight, it jumps out at you when the bars are Normalized.
Also you can set the alarms for each measurement to your standards. E.G. if 380 is your CHT limit, set the alarm at that. The display will go to that reading and flash when 380 is exceeded allowing you to respond immediately (decrease ROC, open cowl flaps more, or....)
Great device. You paid for it. Now use all its features.
 
That technique works, but the biggest thing to keep an eye on in the climb are CHTs.

Yup. I don't care much about the EGTs until cruise. On climb out I lean to CHT temp. As high as I can go and keep it under 400. Of course with the big gaping mouth on the Comanche, I usually start sputtering before I get to that point.
 
Yup. I don't care much about the EGTs until cruise. On climb out I lean to CHT temp. As high as I can go and keep it under 400. Of course with the big gaping mouth on the Comanche, I usually start sputtering before I get to that point.

Your Comanche has very good cooling. My Aztec, by comparison, does not.

On a lot of planes, your cruise CHTs will be very nice no matter what you do. However on poorly cowled and higher powered aircraft, you'll need to use the mixture to get your CHTs where they need to be.
 
Murphy is trying to figure out how to use the JPI to set FULL POWER mixture on the ground. She's not worried about the mag drops etc.
We are in Colorado, we don't set full rich for takeoff (There are places where you won't get off the ground if you set full rich).

I don't have a JPI, but I'd suggest you do the simple Piper recommended mixture adjustment. Pull the knob until it runs rough, then richen to smooth. Then check and see where that puts the EGT on all 4 cylinders. Richen more if you end up with a high CHT somewhere.
 
The JPI 730 was installed last week, but due to weather I've only had one trip around the pattern to check it out.

The JPI manual goes into detail about setting LOP/ROP in cruise but nothing about takeoff. I've spent 15 years doing runup using the single EGT and tach so this is all new.

1. should I be using the JPI on the runup or rely soley on the tach?
2. if using the JPI, what kind of numbers should I be looking for on the JPI?

Warning Will Robinson! runup is usually at 5500 ft MSL on an O-360 engine.
For mag testing on runnup, go with Lance Flynn's explanation, it's spot on. I barely look at my tach during a mag check once I have the desired RPM set, the EGT rise (or lack thereof) tells me all I can learn about spark plug and mag health on the ground and weak plugs definitely show up better when the mixture is leaned out. One caveat: set the runnup RPM, wait 10-15 seconds, then activate the normalize mode. Wait for the bars to stabilize then turn off each mag (one at a time) long enough to see that all bars rise at least a few bars. Typically you'll see a 30-60F rise if you wait long enough. If you engage normalize mode too soon after cranking up the RPM the bars will go off scale. If you switch off a mag before the bars have stabilized you might easily misinterpret a bar that's still rising from the RPM increase as an indication of proper mag behavior. It's also possible to do the mag check without going into normalize mode but you have to watch the bars closely because there's very little movement when one mag is turned off.

Once the mag check is complete, you should switch back to progressive mode (turn Normalize off) and hit the step button until the cylinder that normally runs the hottest CHT at full power is selected (has a dot above the bar). In my airplane that's cylinder #2 but you'll have to check them all in a full power climb a few times to find the hottest one on your airplane. The JPI will stay "stuck" on that cylinder for several minutes and this lets you keep tabs on your hottest CHT with a glance. It's also important to always select the same cylinder for monitoring on takeoff so that the numerical EGT can being monitored during the climb mixture is consistent.

One thing you'll find if you use JPI's "lean find" mode (LOP or ROP) is that the instrument isn't very good at identifying the actual peak EGT. More often than not the temp it latches onto will be 10-20F in error if you change the mixture too quickly and it will often pick the wrong cylinder as the first to peak if you change the mixture too slowly. As a result, when I use the analyzer to set cruise mixture (which isn't all that often now that I have a pretty good idea what my fuel flow needs to be for the power settings I typically use) I always confirm the peak by engaging normalize mode and watching for the first visible EGT drop on the bars, then go to that cylinder's digital EGT value and adjust from there.

Finally WRT alarm settings I strongly believe that you should not set your CHT alarm (or any other for that matter) to the value you consider your normal operating limit but rather to a value just enough beyond that so you won't generate nuisance alerts. For example Like Lance Flynn, I use 380F as the maximum CHT I will allow during any operation (climb or cruise) but I have my CHT alarm limit set to 400F. My theory is that since I have no problem letting the CHTs run at 380 I don't want to see an alarm when they hit 381 and any serious problem is going to trip the alarm at 400F before any damage can occur that could be prevented by decreasing CHT's. If I had the alarm limit set to 380, there's a good chance I'd see an alert fairly often when climbing out on takeoff in the summer and I might become "acclimated" to those "cry wolf" alerts and ignore a more serious one. The downside is that I might let a CHT sit between 380 and 399 for an extended period, noticing it only when I happen to directly examine the individual temps or the temp of the hottest cylinder (noted by the highest black bar), but since I'm convinced that occasional operation between 380 and 400 don't pose a significant risk of damage I'm willing to make that tradeoff.
 
Good stuff from both Lances, but I'm not sure they answered her question which is how to set her mixture properly taking off from a 5,500 foot airport in an NA plane. Since I'm TCed, I don't deal much with that. Some folks can address this better than I, but I think one tries to lean to get the hottest EGT and enrichens to get out of the red box. I would think, 100 to 150 ROP is where one would want to be, but defer to those that do more of this.

Dave
 
Murphy is trying to figure out how to use the JPI to set FULL POWER mixture on the ground. She's not worried about the mag drops etc.
We are in Colorado, we don't set full rich for takeoff (There are places where you won't get off the ground if you set full rich).

I don't have a JPI, but I'd suggest you do the simple Piper recommended mixture adjustment. Pull the knob until it runs rough, then richen to smooth. Then check and see where that puts the EGT on all 4 cylinders. Richen more if you end up with a high CHT somewhere.

That (and 75 ROP) sounds way too lean for full power. Ideally it would be nice if you could just adjust the mixture to get a specific EGT but there are too many variables for that. The next best would probably be to go for something in the 150 ROP (high DA)-200 ROP (low DA) range although even at 5000 DA, I wouldn't hang around peak EGT for more than 10 seconds or so. Personally if this were me, I'd find out what 150-200 ROP was in absolute terms under different conditions (e.g. hot and cold OAT) then just set the mixture to give the same EGT on all subsequent takeoffs.

If you have a fuel flow indicator and have some way to compute the takeoff HP at your DA, you can set the FF to HP/10.5 (HP/10 is probably close enough).

And a good indication that you're running the mixture too lean is when any CHT rises above 380F when climbing at full power and Vy.
 
I know many of the Cessna's I fly have a Max Fuel Flow table for altitude, so you just lean to that fuel flow. I wonder if the engine manufacturer might have published that information somewhere?
 
I'm collecting all these notes. They'll make an excellent addendum to the official JPI manual. I know with the variety of engines and add-ons, there's no way JPI can provide these types of details.

I'm still reading the user manual. All I have is the basic egt/cht probes to learn about. Us unemployed rocket scientists are more interested in the real-time software running the system, what's the OS - Greenhills or something else and is it DO-170B compliant, what did they use to program this? (C/C++, Ada, FORTRAN, proprietary?)

I need to keep reminding myself

"Fly airplane. Color graphics pretty. Fly airplane. Look at blinky graphics. Fly airplane. Pretty colors. Fly airplane."

I am so easily distracted...
 
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Actually the best ground test (by best I mean the one that puts the most load on each mag) is LOP. Yep. Set the mixture at the leanest possible to reach the RPM .

+1

This should be the SOP industry wide, I cant tell you how many plug issues Ive seen "hide" behind Rich runups
 
Once you get to know how to use the JPI for mixture management, it will become second nature. Lean as Lance said for takeoff, 150 ROP on the highest EGT. Look at it a couple times in the climb. If not CHT exceeds 380, you're fine. For a short field, one could lean closer to peak, but increase mixture right after the obstacle is cleared. I wouldn't suggest that until you've used the JPI a bit more.

To go to normalize mode, press the right button and hold down until all EGT appear level. Once you've done this a few times, you'll learn what your takeoff fuel flow should be and be able to get pretty close by just setting fuel flow from your field.

Congrats; great engine management tool.

If you're coming to Gastons, I could show you what I do on the Baron.

Best,

Dave
 
Us employed rocket scientists are more interested in the real-time software running the system, what's the OS - Greenhills or something else and is it DO-170B compliant, what did they use to program this? (C/C++, Ada, FORTRAN, proprietary?)

You know Greenhills?! Wow. I have a really good old friend over there. We had our usual "We should get together for lunch sometime this decade" lunch last week. Ha.

They're like the best kept real-time OS secret in the world outside of you rocket scientists.

VxWorks gets all the cute girls at the bar... Greenhills goes home to study. LOL!
 
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