Engine Failure - Down to one, then none!

Reminds me of the Bo that lost an engine over the mountains of western PA and dead sticked it all the way in from about 17 out.
 
that is exciting. The one time I was on board (teller was there too) for an engine failure in the 421 da boss went full everything and with full rich mix and high fuel pump there was so much fuel going to the engine that it would not run. when he pulled the mixture about half way back it fired again. we figured it must've been some water or ice in the fuel.
 
Hey Brett:

Why not register and join our conversation?

Nice story - better outcome!
 
Welcome! and Wow! some story!

Thank you for your contribution, Professor Murphy, we've heard all we need from you for the remainder of the evening, if you please . . .
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That part made me laugh!

Maybe you can become a "Real Life Pilot Story" with AOPA! I would ask! If you want to be...
 
I'm very happy to hear that you made it safely on the ground. Excellent work.

This reminds me of a story by Ernest K. Gann when he was flying a DC-4. A new type spark plug had been installed on 3 out of the 4 engines. Right after takeoff, they discovered that the plugs were useful for about nothing other than trying to turn a DC-4 into a heaping pile of parts. Managed to get it in with 1 engine operating. But it turned out (later discovered) that the plugs would have worked at part throttle, they were keeping them all at full. This is why I stress the importance of systems knowledge.

Glad you're alive - hope you join PoA!
 
Excellent work. And luck!

Trying several throttle and mixture positions, once all else has been tried, would definitely be in my bag of tricks if there were time to do so!
 
Cool story. I wonder why the right engine never gave you issues before if it was a mixture issue. Murphy?

Not going full rich for a high altitude restart is something that should be taught. Great piece of aviating and nice writeup, it had me on the edge of my seat.
 
p-thomas said:
Cool story. I wonder why the right engine never gave you issues before if it was a mixture issue. Murphy?
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The way the Continental fuel systems are structured, the auxiliary fuel pumps, when turned on, will increase fuel flow to the engine. At higher power settings, the engine is capable of handling richer mixtures while still running. In this case, the story reads that he pulled back to decrease speed for landing, and the engine quit. That would tell me that the engine was running too rich.

Of course, figuring that out when you've got two dead engines and are low to the ground isn't exactly an easy task for anyone...
 
Ted DuPuis said:
The way the Continental fuel systems are structured, the auxiliary fuel pumps, when turned on, will increase fuel flow to the engine. At higher power settings, the engine is capable of handling richer mixtures while still running. In this case, the story reads that he pulled back to decrease speed for landing, and the engine quit. That would tell me that the engine was running too rich.

Of course, figuring that out when you've got two dead engines and are low to the ground isn't exactly an easy task for anyone...
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Exactly I was reading the story thinking "lean the mixture!" when the second engine died and didn't respond to full rich, boost pumps, etc.


BUT, I was sitting in a nice comfy office with a cup of coffee, not in a airplane that had just become a brick!
 
Skylane81E said:
Exactly I was reading the story thinking "lean the mixture!" when the second engine died and didn't respond to full rich, boost pumps, etc.
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I was thinking the same thing as well.

BUT,
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I was sitting in a nice comfy office with a cup of coffee, not in a airplane that had just become a brick!
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This is why systems knowledge is important, and thinking about what you're going to do ahead of time when you've got a comfy office and cup of coffee to think about it.

Today I was flying with one of my students in his Bonanza, and we talked about what to do if he flipped the mags off by accident in-flight. The panic response would be to turn them back on. Of course, then you've got a bunch of unburned fuel in the exhaust, which won't make it happy. Pull the mixture to idle cut-off, let it windmill, then turn the mags back on and feed the fuel back in. He said he probably could figure that out on his own, but that he probably wouldn't figure it out on his own if we didn't talk about it and he did it by accident.
 
I came close to having the tubocharger in my Turbo Arrow fail in flight. It didn't fail, but it was making horrible grinding noises towards the end of the flight. I was real glad I had studied the procedure for a restart after a turbo failure - pull the prop to minimum RPM, mixture to idle cutoff and slowly increase the mixture until the engine starts.

Looking at the old turbocharger, A&P figured it was within a couple minutes of welding itself together.
 
A cool head and good training beats Murphy most of the time. Great job bringing your passenger and it home in one piece.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I came close to having the tubocharger in my Turbo Arrow fail in flight. It didn't fail, but it was making horrible grinding noises towards the end of the flight. I was real glad I had studied the procedure for a restart after a turbo failure - pull the prop to minimum RPM, mixture to idle cutoff and slowly increase the mixture until the engine starts.

Looking at the old turbocharger, A&P figured it was within a couple minutes of welding itself together.
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I've had the turbo fail in flight a couple times in a C-206 but the engine itself didn't fail. It produced a lot less power than normal, however. Maybe a different engine setup.

I've also had an engine failure in a twin at about 20,000' for no reason which could be found. I don't remember what I did with the mixture but I think I got it restarted by turning on the high boost pump. Speculation was that something had plugged either a line or a vent and when I turned on the boost it created enough pressure or suction to dislodge it. That's what the mechanics thought, anyway. Coincidentally it was the same shop mentioned in the OP's story. Small world.
 
Richard said:
I would be interested in the forensics in that.
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I had read someplace, can't remember where, maybe on the Piper Owner Society board that the turbochargers on the TCM TSIO 360 engine typically last about half of the engine life. Which, was about where the turbo failed. The bearings were pretty chewed up and carbonized. Don't know what the root cause of failure was.

Everskyward said:
I've had the turbo fail in flight a couple times in a C-206 but the engine itself didn't fail. It produced a lot less power than normal, however. Maybe a different engine setup.

I've also had an engine failure in a twin at about 20,000' for no reason which could be found. I don't remember what I did with the mixture but I think I got it restarted by turning on the high boost pump. Speculation was that something had plugged either a line or a vent and when I turned on the boost it created enough pressure or suction to dislodge it. That's what the mechanics thought, anyway. Coincidentally it was the same shop mentioned in the OP's story. Small world.
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Yes, my concern would be that the engine would produce a lot less power than normal, particularly given that the turbo is required to produce full rated power at sea level on the TSIO 360 in the first place. Not likely a big issue at low altitude, but it could be a big issue at high altitude in terrain.
 
Sac Arrow said:
I had read someplace, can't remember where, maybe on the Piper Owner Society board that the turbochargers on the TCM TSIO 360 engine typically last about half of the engine life. Which, was about where the turbo failed. The bearings were pretty chewed up and carbonized. Don't know what the root cause of failure was.
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That's typicaly a cokeing problem, don't know if there is a decokeing procedure like there is for the (L)TIO-540-J2BDs I've done it on, but basicaly you remove the oil lines, cap the return and fill the oil passage with mouse milk to desolve out the coke.

Would it have helped you (or is it even "legal" on your engine):dunno:
 
Sac Arrow said:
I had read someplace, can't remember where, maybe on the Piper Owner Society board that the turbochargers on the TCM TSIO 360 engine typically last about half of the engine life. Which, was about where the turbo failed. The bearings were pretty chewed up and carbonized. Don't know what the root cause of failure was.



Yes, my concern would be that the engine would produce a lot less power than normal, particularly given that the turbo is required to produce full rated power at sea level on the TSIO 360 in the first place. Not likely a big issue at low altitude, but it could be a big issue at high altitude in terrain.
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Depending on weight, the Turbo-Dakota would do okay without the turbo. Of course, as you note, it won't do okay at high altitude. It will make about 90 knots at 22 inches, S&L. I'd think it'll slow the drift down pretty good if too high to make 22 inches but handling the mixture could get just a bit tricky. I've done a couple take-offs at 30 inches with just me aboard to see what it was like and other than use a bunch of runway and climb slow, it was okay.
 
My co-pilot recounted a story last night of a friend of his who deadsticked a Duke to a violent, but safe forced landing following a double engine failure. They were out of Santa Fe destined for Dallas but only made Santa Rosa (I was stormstayed there one evening incidentally). I looked it up in the NTSB site and found this. The description given matches the report albeit with more emotive inputs than the dry ntsb narrative, and included a better recounting of what it felt like to almost make a runway in the blackness of a NM night and have the seats ripped out of it.
 
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Thanks for sharing that NTSB report, Dave. Scary stuff.
 
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