Engine failure before gear up in a twin - How do you train?

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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While searching for something unrelated, I came across this accident report of a B58 Baron that crashed on takeoff in 1976. Crankshaft failed on the left engine shortly after liftoff. Wiped out an entire family:

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR77-04.pdf

Pilot had a decent amount of experience in the Baron. Was smart enough/well trained enough to reduce power on the good engine to avoid the VMC roll, but utlimately stalled it and the crash/post-impact fire killed them all.

What I find interesting is that the board faulted the pilot for not retracting the gear when the engine failed. Granted, this happened in 1976 and there have been alot of changes in multi-engine instruction since then, but I am curious what other twin drivers think.

I was trained (and have always briefed) that if I have an engine failure in a light twin before selecting gear up, I am reducing power and setting it down on whatever pavement is left. Hopefully, I have a balanced field, but even without, I would rather deal with an overrun than risk flying into terrain/trees while I am limping into the air with full power on the good engine waiting for the gear to come into the well. I honestly don't think this guy would have been any more successful trying to retract the gear in that situation.

Thoughts? How do you train?
 
Considering planes like the Aztec only have one engine driven pump retracting the gear may not even be an option
 
Fearless Tower said:
I was trained (and have always briefed) that if I have an engine failure in a light twin before selecting gear up, I am reducing power and setting it down on whatever pavement is left. Hopefully, I have a balanced field, but even without, I would rather deal with an overrun than risk flying into terrain/trees while I am limping into the air with full power on the good engine waiting for the gear to come into the well. I honestly don't think this guy would have been any more successful trying to retract the gear in that situation.

Thoughts? How do you train?
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Same here. I thought of light twins being more like glorified singles, especially before the gear was up and maybe even after. I did learn to fly light twins in Colorado, though, so I have a different perspective.
 
I would think chop power land on what ever you have left, but then I don't have my MEL. I have had an actual engine out in one though but that was 20 years ago or more.
 
I've always been taught and briefed pretake off that engine failure before the gear are in transit is an immediate close the throttles and land with what you've got ahead.
 
Before the gear comes up, land straight ahead. Pulling the gear up? No way. It'd have to be a cold day in Alaska and be lightly loaded and solo, even with the upgraded engines.

In the Aztec you could consider pumping the gear up by hand... Yeah, that'd work. ;)

If I'm not at a balanced field, I accept that hitting the trees when I land back and try to stop is better than hitting them at blue line speed. That's just a risk you decide if you're willing to take or not. If not, fly elsewhere.
 
It is my understanding that this is the very reason many of us have been trained to "delay" gear retraction until you cannot put it back on the runway.
 
Close throttles, turn off fuel, retract gear, crash straight ahead.

Hopefully, call insurance company from hospital, and tell them the keys are in it.

But, that wasn't the OPs question. The short answer is you simulate it on the ground. You make the motions, go over the numbers, practice the handles(without an actual retract selection), and know what to do and how to do it without an actual rolling experiment.
 
runway left then land then chop power land. no runway then dead foot dead engine, blue line, mix props throttle max, flaps up gear up fuel pumps on, id verify, feather, secure dead engine, land. If you are in an under-powered twin then good luck with the OEI climb.
 
docmirror said:
Hopefully, call insurance company from hospital, and tell them the keys are in it.
Click to expand...

More like hopefully walk away and call insurance company from airport.
 
I don't think you "train" just mentally be prepared if it happens. The amount of time you have after the incident and before you take action is critical. Wasting time thinking about what to do can be fatal.
 
I fly a BE58. They have electric gear so it will retract regardless of which engine died. There is no way to train for this failure in a real aircraft which is why I go to SIMCOM every other year for simulator training. I have recurrent training each year in single engine operation with a knowledgable flight instructor such as BPPP. However, there really isn't any good way to practice this very unlikely event.

The current methodology is to hold the brakes until the engines spool up past 2000 RPM then hold the plane on the runway until well past redline (84K); I rotate at 90K. Possitive rate - gear up - committed. Push the nose down a bit to accelerate past blue line (100K) then climb at Vy (105) until 1000' AGL, push the nose down a bit more and finish the climb at desired cruise climb (135-150K). Depending on density altitude and weight that results in 1000 to 2000 fpm. The total time from rotation to gear up and blue line is maybe a three count; not a very big window for a catastrophic engine failure.

It has been beat into my head to ALWAYS expect an engine failure and be surprised when it doesn't happen. The Baron with IO550s will climb single engine in most conditions other then really hot (25C+) and heavy (5500 lbs). However, I self brief (usually :yes:) an engine failure plan. If I'm light, which is typical, it is simply go when committed. If I'm heavy (which means other souls) I self brief much more carefully and consult the single-engine climb tables. Again, in most situations the BE58 will climb; however, if the "book value" is 200 fpm or less then a plan B is in order. Hopefully I have a nice long runway with an overrun free of trees. Otherwise....not too many options if the engine fails at the worst possible moment between gear up and a couple hundred feet. Again, this amounts to 5 - 10 seconds of exposure.
 
I think this is my seventh year at SIMCOM and I pretty much agree with the above. However, there can be some variables. Blue line on the air speed indicator is when at full gross. So, one may slightly adjust for weight. Many twins have air speed limitations that require the gear to go up early. So, one may have raised the gear, and still have plenty of runway ahead to put it back down. I've done that in training.

In the P baron, we had a little more time between lift off and blue line. I lifted off from longer runways and accelerated in ground effect before raising the gear. If an engine failed, one was just a bit off the ground and could get wheels down and brakes on quickly (same in the the B-25). Of course, on a shorter field, options are limited.

I'm basically in agreement, gear up means go around, however, with a long runway, one may brief and execute that a bit differently.

Best,

Dave
 
I've mentioned this before, but in light twins (particularly those with marginal OEI performance even when clean), my default plan is treat any engine failure before I'm clean and at least 1000 AGL the same way I would in a single. Lower the nose, maintain a safe airspeed, and land/crash under control.

Now if the conditions warrant it (really light , really cold, whatever), I may alter that plan.
 
cirrusmx said:
runway left then land then chop power land. no runway then dead foot dead engine, blue line, mix props throttle max, flaps up gear up fuel pumps on, id verify, feather, secure dead engine, land. If you are in an under-powered twin then good luck with the OEI climb.
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That is a fine prep-for-a checkride answer. But I assume the OP is interested in the real world where you have already hit the ground by the time you have recited your checklist.

Hand stays on throttles and gear stays down until going fast enough to fly away on one engine. That is faster than blue line for most of us. At that point hand leaves throttles and puts gear up.

If an engine loses a noticeable amount of power while hand is still on the throttles, you are not going to fly away, you are going to land in some manner. If you try to keep flying you are going to die. It is as simple as that. Do not allow any other option to enter your head.
 
TMetzinger said:
I've mentioned this before, but in light twins (particularly those with marginal OEI performance even when clean), my default plan is treat any engine failure before I'm clean and at least 1000 AGL the same way I would in a single. Lower the nose, maintain a safe airspeed, and land/crash under control.

Now if the conditions warrant it (really light , really cold, whatever), I may alter that plan.
Click to expand...
speed matters. altitude is arbitrary. Many times I want to climb at higher speed and will take a (relatively) long time to reach 1000ft. Just a suggestion, you might consider a speed target for your decision making rather than altitude.
 
JHW said:
speed matters. altitude is arbitrary. Many times I want to climb at higher speed and will take a (relatively) long time to reach 1000ft. Just a suggestion, you might consider a speed target for your decision making rather than altitude.
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I understand what you mean. If I'm planning something other than standard, my GTH plan changes.

But I decided that if something goes wrong on my normal profile before I reach "pattern altitude" (which really means I'm clean, and at a decent altitude AND speed), I'm not inclined to try and fly it out on one engine in something like a seminole.

It's a general philosophy, and the actual circumstances in effect (planned performance, terrain, runway length and such) will drive the specific plan for that takeoff.

I always brief the GTH plan as well in both singles and twins, even if it's only to myself.
 
In a Part 23 light piston twin, you have to either be very light or have a whole lot of open space in front of you to fly out of an engine failure before gear up. Generally speaking, in such planes, I figure if the gear isn't up, it's "throttles idle, land straight ahead".
 
There isn't a light twin that I know of that can fly out dirty on a single engine unless your Bob Hoover proficient; which none of us are. If you loose an engine dirty pull the throttles and live with it. I watch the engine monitor closely during the initial spool up before brake release. If I see the slightest anomaly in an EGT or CHT I'm cutting the throttles. Most importantly my ears are laser focussed on the engines during takeoff.

Like a said above, the BE58 Baron (original subject aircraft) has the best single engine performance of the light twins. I researched this pretty carefully back when I targeted the BE58. Even at that, if the book value is 200fpm or less the average pilot (me) isn't going to climb out on a single engine. Fortunately, for the BE58 about 80-90% of the time it has single engine capability in excess of 200fpm.
 
TMetzinger said:
I've mentioned this before, but in light twins (particularly those with marginal OEI performance even when clean), my default plan is treat any engine failure before I'm clean and at least 1000 AGL the same way I would in a single. Lower the nose, maintain a safe airspeed, and land/crash under control.

Now if the conditions warrant it (really light , really cold, whatever), I may alter that plan.
Click to expand...

That's true for most light twins. The higher powered Barons or upgraded 310s (like the one I fly) have some decent OEI performance (decent being relative, of course). So for me, it's gear up means go, unless at a really long runway.

A Seminole and a 58 Baron or Colemill 310 are completely different animals.
 
If you had talked to every dead twin pilot the night before his fatal accident, how much different would their answers have been from yours or any of the others posted in this thread? Why does anybody think their outcome will be different if one of the fans stop?

TMetzinger said:
I understand what you mean. If I'm planning something other than standard, my GTH plan changes.

But I decided that if something goes wrong on my normal profile before I reach "pattern altitude" (which really means I'm clean, and at a decent altitude AND speed), I'm not inclined to try and fly it out on one engine in something like a seminole.

It's a general philosophy, and the actual circumstances in effect (planned performance, terrain, runway length and such) will drive the specific plan for that takeoff.

I always brief the GTH plan as well in both singles and twins, even if it's only to myself.
Click to expand...
 
TMetzinger said:
I've mentioned this before, but in light twins (particularly those with marginal OEI performance even when clean), my default plan is treat any engine failure before I'm clean and at least 1000 AGL the same way I would in a single. Lower the nose, maintain a safe airspeed, and land/crash under control.

Now if the conditions warrant it (really light , really cold, whatever), I may alter that plan.
Click to expand...

If you'll read the NTSB report they tested a similar B58 in similar conditions

(about 3000 feet msl, 60f and loaded to 5400lbs)

With the gear out and one windmilling the plane descended at 1-200 fpm

They ran the checklist. The gear retracted in 4 seconds and the propeller feathered completely in 12.

Yer tellin me you'd just crash the thing at 800 agl? At 200fpm with some 100 foot trees you have over three minutes to get a climb going.
 
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I concur with the OP: If the gear is down you're going down (in control), if it's up keep going up by doing the drill.

I also agree with the concept of expect the worst on every takeoff and be pleasantly surprised when nothing goes wrong.
 
LDJones said:
I concur with the OP: If the gear is down you're going down (in control), if it's up keep going up by doing the drill.

I also agree with the concept of expect the worst on every takeoff and be pleasantly surprised when nothing goes wrong.
Click to expand...

Exactly ... I would think that if you have an engine out on take off and you go try to fool with the gear, you're already doomed.
 
wabower said:
If you had talked to every dead twin pilot the night before his fatal accident, how much different would their answers have been from yours or any of the others posted in this thread? Why does anybody think their outcome will be different if one of the fans stop?
Click to expand...

Because there are no NTSB reports for the larger number of engine failures in a twin where the result was "Landed safely. Walked away."?

Of course, the difference is those people handle the engine failure properly. And that's the hard line to gauge since everyone's answer is "Of course I'd handle it properly."
 
And then there are those with an opinion such as this:

sba55 said:
And it's really important to practice this a few times, even if you don't fly a commuter category airplane.

Some heavier light twins (those above 6,000 lbs) are certified to climb on one engine at max weight. I can imagine situations where that option might be preferable to the alternative. FAR 23 makes for an interesting read, and a good takeoff briefing every time helps a lot.

-Felix
Click to expand...

sba55 said:
I wasn't talking about taking off, was I?

Anyways, it is feasible to take off in many off those planes with an engine failure at V1. If you take the published start-go distances and add 50% for safety, you still end up with tolerable conditions. That's at max gross. Below, it's even better. I suggest you try it in the sim.

-Felix
Click to expand...
 
Gear up is obviously less drag and means increased climb performance, but the retraction process is often a drag inducing event! :yikes: Some airplanes, like Cessnas with electric gear take an eternity to retract, 12 seconds I think. I was always taught, hand on throttles until gear retraction, I move my hand to raise the gear when I am committed to continue the takeoff, even after an engine failure. Unless you always fly out of bomber length runways, there is a short window, 5-15 seconds, in which an engine failure in many piston twins is more than the average pilot can handle.:mad2: I'm not saying we all shouldn't have a plan and follow it, but if you're at 100 ft agl and a crankshaft breaks and stops the prop before you can feather, just before the gear comes up on a windy day in hilly terrain with all the seats filled, you might just be screwed.:dunno:
We all like to look at accidents and see how it could never happen to us, but not all these dead pilots were bad pilots, some were just very unlucky.
Life has risks, but it sure is fun!:yes:
 
Fearless Tower said:
While searching for something unrelated, I came across this accident report of a B58 Baron that crashed on takeoff in 1976. Crankshaft failed on the left engine shortly after liftoff. Wiped out an entire family:

http://www.airdisaster.com/reports/ntsb/AAR77-04.pdf

Pilot had a decent amount of experience in the Baron. Was smart enough/well trained enough to reduce power on the good engine to avoid the VMC roll, but utlimately stalled it and the crash/post-impact fire killed them all.

What I find interesting is that the board faulted the pilot for not retracting the gear when the engine failed. Granted, this happened in 1976 and there have been alot of changes in multi-engine instruction since then, but I am curious what other twin drivers think.

I was trained (and have always briefed) that if I have an engine failure in a light twin before selecting gear up, I am reducing power and setting it down on whatever pavement is left. Hopefully, I have a balanced field, but even without, I would rather deal with an overrun than risk flying into terrain/trees while I am limping into the air with full power on the good engine waiting for the gear to come into the well. I honestly don't think this guy would have been any more successful trying to retract the gear in that situation.

Thoughts? How do you train?
Click to expand...

First comes the T/O condition evaluation and brief, that's where I decide what will happen where/if. If the wheels left the ground on my plane, they are on their way up, I am a "positive rate, gear up" guy, paid off once in a 310 where I made it around the pattern. Another thing I train, rather make habit, is a little movement of rolling my right hand to the left while tapping right foot and right while tapping down on left to ingrain that muscle memory coordination. While I'm rolling down the runway my hand is on the throttles, when I rotate and go for the gear switch my hand returns directly to the prop controls. If I have an issue I will verify with the prop handle on the way back to the feather detent, no change in sound and I keep pulling into feather, saves both time and point of error grabbing the wrong handle.

The primary thing I train is to keep my flying weight to the minimum possible, GW to spare is the biggest safety benefit you add to a light twin.
 
Henning said:
I rotate and go for the gear switch my hand returns directly to the prop controls. If I have an issue I will verify with the prop handle on the way back to the feather detent, no change in sound and I keep pulling into feather, saves both time and point of error grabbing the wrong handle.
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The MEI I used for my last few Flight Reviews was recommending that technique - hand goes from throttles to gear to props....apparently one of the sim schools (Simuflight, Simcom...not sure which) was teaching that to the big twin drivers.
 
Fearless Tower said:
The MEI I used for my last few Flight Reviews was recommending that technique - hand goes from throttles to gear to props....apparently one of the sim schools (Simuflight, Simcom...not sure which) was teaching that to the big twin drivers.
Click to expand...

Simuflight taught that technique in the Citations for sure, I'm not sure what they do in the piston twins. Pretty much hand off throttles means we are flying, regardless. ;) Deal with the problem in the air. :D
 
N747JB said:
Simuflight taught that technique in the Citations for sure, I'm not sure what they do in the piston twins. Pretty much hand off throttles means we are flying, regardless. ;) Deal with the problem in the air. :D
Click to expand...
Citations have prop controls?
 
RotorAndWing said:
Wonder if he ever actually got a multi rating? :rolleyes2:
Click to expand...

Date of Issue: 11/16/2008
Certificate: PRIVATE PILOT
Ratings:
PRIVATE PILOT
AIRPLANE SINGLE ENGINE LAND
INSTRUMENT AIRPLANE

Limits:
ENGLISH PROFICIENT.

Doesn't look like it.
 
N747JB said:
Simuflight taught that technique in the Citations for sure, I'm not sure what they do in the piston twins. Pretty much hand off throttles means we are flying, regardless. ;) Deal with the problem in the air. :D
Click to expand...
But that has nothing to do with the prop control. :D

In jets they teach you to take your hand away from the throttles and grab the yoke after V1 because they don't want you aborting after that, and having your hand away from the throttles is a good physical cue.
 
Seems like the acknowledgment to abort the attempt to fly away OEI when immediately after takeoff in light piston twins is a big negative transfer with respect to multi engine turbine operations, where it is invariably the procedure to continue after V1 cut, where you are a GO unless you can't physically control the surfaces to effect rotation. I understand the reason for the contradicting technique in piston twins is that these piston jobs are so underpowered OEI that they effectively behave like single engine aircraft during takeoff power losses.

Talk about a false economy. What's the point of a second engine if I can't reasonably expect to fly it out of the runway environment when past takeoff abort speed? To each their own. I rather fly behind a turbine single if I'm at those odds and my mission would otherwise require the kind of useful loads/high altitude mission usually associated with twin owners' mission sets....

And I agree with the comment about twins and the median recreational pilots. In general, way too squirrely to be dancing on one foot like that for the average weekend warrior, especially in IMC. It only takes one time you're not on your A game. Even the impact modes of the single engine aircraft are more benign (generally lower Vso to boot and coordinated).

But hey, this place is like Shawshank... Didn't ya know? We're all innocent [read: permanently proficient] here!
 
hindsight2020 said:
Seems like the acknowledgment to abort the attempt to fly away OEI when immediately after takeoff in light piston twins is a big negative transfer with respect to multi engine turbine operations, where it is invariably the procedure to continue after V1 cut, where you are a GO unless you can't physically control the surfaces to effect rotation. I understand the reason for the contradicting technique in piston twins is that these piston jobs are so underpowered OEI that they effectively behave like single engine aircraft during takeoff power losses.

Talk about a false economy. What's the point of a second engine if I can't reasonably expect to fly it out of the runway environment when past takeoff abort speed? To each their own. I rather fly behind a turbine single if I'm at those odds and my mission would otherwise require the kind of useful loads/high altitude mission usually associated with twin owners' mission sets....

And I agree with the comment about twins and the median recreational pilots. In general, way too squirrely to be dancing on one foot like that for the average weekend warrior, especially in IMC. It only takes one time you're not on your A game. Even the impact modes of the single engine aircraft are more benign (generally lower Vso to boot and coordinated).

But hey, this place is like Shawshank... Didn't ya know? We're all innocent [read: permanently proficient] here!
Click to expand...

That would depend on the plane and loading, I can fly out and climb quite nicely OEI in my typical loading and region.
 
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