Elite PCATD

mdenney

mdenney

Filing Flight Plan
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Aug 1, 2011
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Maxwell Denney
Greetings!

A good friend of mine gave me an ELITE PCATD. I know it has all the required hardware (PI135, AP2000 avionics panel, and self centering rudder pedals) needed to meet the FAA standards for a BATD (Basic ATD). The only downside is that the equipment did not come with any software.

I was wondering what software you have used on an ELITE PCATD. I am looking for the best quality software for the price. I know ELITE has software that will set me back $450. Does ASA on Top work?

I also have some confusion over AC 61-26

7. ACCEPTABILITY OF PCATD's FOR USE UNDER PART 61
a. To be acceptable for use in part 61, a PCATD must:

b. The PCATD should be used in a curriculum which will provide for:
(1) A scope and content which should be in general compliance with part 141.
(2) Not more than 10 hours of flight instruction in a PCATD in lieu of 10 of the 20 hours of flight
instruction allowed for a flight simulator or FTD. The 20-hour allowance for a flight simulator or an FTD
and the 10-hour allowance for PCATD's are not additive. If a PCATD is used for the maximum of
10 hours, that 10 hours shall be a part of the 20-hour maximum allowance for a flight simulator or flight
training device.
(3) Instructional materials for flight events.
(4) An outline of stage (phase) checks and criterion levels of performance
Your thoughts are much appreciated.

I know I read somewhere that 2.5 hrs could be applied towards a private pilot simulated instrument experience (Not that I think this is a good idea)
10 hours towards instrument rating and 50 hrs towards the commercial experience. Can someone help me sort this out?

Thanks again for all of your valuable insight.

Max
 
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So, I have a similar package that I purchased from ASA a number of years ago. I'm running it with the current version of OnTop.

I believe to qualify as a PCATD that there are certain specific certification requirements that must be met. I never bothered - I use it as a high end flight simulator. For that purpose, it works very well. Unless you're running a flight school, the time and effort to make sure it meets all the PCATD specs is probably not worth it. Especially given the limited number of hours you can substitute and the need to have your CFI come to your house.

However, using it to reinforce lessons in the plane is valuable, and it'll help you maintain your scan. For all that, the cost of OnTop is worth it.

Verify with OnTop that the particular set of equipment you have will work with their software.
 
I am in the process of getting my CFI and presently have my IGI/AGI. I plan on giving instruction in this PCATD ($25/hr), as well as use it for instrument currency. Thanks again Bill for your input.
 
mdenney said:
I am in the process of getting my CFI and presently have my IGI/AGI. I plan on giving instruction in this PCATD ($25/hr), as well as use it for instrument currency. Thanks again Bill for your input.
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Just wanted to clarify this, you plan on giving instruction in that PCATD, after you get your CFI?

I ask, because simply having IGI/AGI does not give you authority to give dual or supervise time in a PCATD.
 
Well I will call my FSDO and get their ruling on "authorized instructor". I figure since they left out "flight instructor" that ground instructors could provide training in a PCATD, provided they hold the appropriate ground instructor certificate. Do you have any sources that explain this a little more?
 
mdenney said:
Well I will call my FSDO and get their ruling on "authorized instructor". I figure since they left out "flight instructor" that ground instructors could provide training in a PCATD, provided they hold the appropriate ground instructor certificate. Do you have any sources that explain this a little more?
Click to expand...


http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2010/Gatlin.pdf

and

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...nterpretations/data/interps/2008/Griffith.pdf
 
Thanks for the sources saved me a call :D.

I sometimes still have a hard time interpreting FAA talk. What do you make of this?

Generally, all appropriate endorsements for passing the instrument proficiency check, which would be otherwise given if the check were passed in an aircraft, can also be given when one passes the check by using an FTD, as long as the FTD represents the appropriate aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought.

Does this mean a CFII can do an instrument proficiency test in a PCATD?

Max
 
mdenney said:
Thanks for the sources saved me a call :D.

I sometimes still have a hard time interpreting FAA talk. What do you make of this?

Generally, all appropriate endorsements for passing the instrument proficiency check, which would be otherwise given if the check were passed in an aircraft, can also be given when one passes the check by using an FTD, as long as the FTD represents the appropriate aircraft category for the instrument privileges sought.

Does this mean a CFII can do an instrument proficiency test in a PCATD?

Max
Click to expand...

Providing the PCATD is certified for all tasks/requirements of an Instrument Proficiency Check as specified in the Practical Test Standards for the Instrument Rating, a CFII should be able to do an IPC in a PCATD.

I'm not entirely sure more specifically about what requirements exist for PCATDs/simulators for use like this, but i'm sure someone with more experience with these will chime in.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Providing the PCATD is certified for all tasks/requirements of an Instrument Proficiency Check as specified in the Practical Test Standards for the Instrument Rating, a CFII should be able to do an IPC in a PCATD.

I'm not entirely sure more specifically about what requirements exist for PCATDs/simulators for use like this, but i'm sure someone with more experience with these will chime in.
Click to expand...
IIRC, you also need to get your specific FTD setup approved by the FSDO in order to use it for any logged training or proficiency checks. That approval will specify what can and cannot be done on the FTD.
 
ajstoner21 said:
Just wanted to clarify this, you plan on giving instruction in that PCATD, after you get your CFI?

I ask, because simply having IGI/AGI does not give you authority to give dual or supervise time in a PCATD.
Click to expand...
And I'm pretty sure you have to have CFII on your cert to do IPCs in anything.
 
The Elite software/hardware package is FAA certified as an ATD. However, I don't believe the Elite hardware is certified with any other software -- you'd have to get your FSDO to check with AFS-810, which manages ATD certification. For more details on ATD certification, see AC 61-136.

ATD's which have been FAA-certified need not be individually approved by the FSDO. That requirement only applies to ATD's used in Part 141/142 schools and higher level systems. Once the FAA approves the device for the manufacturer...
​
g.​
​
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]The ATD manufacturer must include copies of the following documents with each ATD manufactured and delivered for sale under an acceptable QAG:
• A copy of the AFS-800 manager’s letter of approval and authorized use of the ATD,
• A copy of the ATD QAG for all aircraft configuration(s) represented,
• A list of the ATD major hardware and software components as mentioned in paragraphs 3c(1) and 4a of this appendix, and
• Aircraft performance information for the aircraft or family of aircraft being represented. ​

[/FONT][/FONT]
h.​
​
[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]An ATD may not be operated unless the documents listed in paragraph 3g are readily available for viewing. These documents must remain with the ATD owner, or operator if leased from the owner, when the ATD is authorized for use. ​

[/FONT][/FONT]
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If you didn't get those approval documents with the hardware, you'll have to get them either from the seller or the manufacturer before that unit may be used for FAA credit. Note that the documents will specify the software to be used with that device.

Typically, the two IPC tasks which cannot be performed on an ATD are the circle-to-land maneuver and the landing from an instrument approach. In any event, the documents mentioned above will tell you what that ATD is and is not approved to do.

And keep in mind that ATD's and FTD's fall under different rules -- and the Elite PI-135 is an ATD, not an FTD.
 
SkyHog said:
There is a version of X-Plane that is certified for PCATDs. If its like the consumer version, it would probably be pretty sick.

http://www.x-plane.com/pg_levels.html
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It's actually precisely the consumer version, but they enable some checks for required hardware (ie. you need pedals IIRC), and minimum frame rate (part of their certification).

Install the same product from the same DVDs, just put the USB key in.
 
I will be studying for my instrument rating. Any thoughts on Elite premium sofwtare w/approach softare & VFII?
 
asgcpa said:
I will be studying for my instrument rating. Any thoughts on Elite premium sofwtare w/approach softare & VFII?
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As a professional instrument instructor, I know how important the two-way interpersonal communication between instructor and trainee is. For that reason, I am very dubious about the value of a "virtual" instructor on a CD. That said, I also believe in the value in IR training of learning on the ground in a sim and then practicing in the plane in flight. The ability of a sim to stop, back up, restart, and enter various procedures at different points is invaluable in conducting effective and efficient training. So, I see great value in the device itself if used by a good live instructor, but I have doubts about the outcome with that "VFII" system.

Of course, in order to count towards the hours needed for the IR, the sim must be certified, and certified ATD's aren't cheap. I have in the past used non-certified sims when the trainee already had all the hours needed so it was "train to proficiency" only, but otherwise, you can end up having to fly extra hours in the plane just to get to 40.
 
A good friend of mine gave me an ELITE PCATD.
Click to expand...
You are very lucky to have such a friend!
The only downside is that the equipment did not come with any software.
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Are you sure? IIRC Elite used to sell systems bundled with software.

I would strongly suggest that you call Elite and explore options with them. I put together an "eBay Elite" PCATD about ten years ago with Elite and PFC bits. Fred Zanegood at Elite worked with me to chase down the software license that had originally come with the hardware and for a relatively small amount (IIRC $150) updated me to the latest version complete with USB key. It was not a small effort as the hardware had been bought by a defunct FBO that had an insurance claim, selling the hardware to the insurance company, ... -- a very murky ownership trail to find the original serial number. The radio stack was a little unusual, too, and Fred worked that out for me.

Fred also sent all the paperwork to back up legal logging of the sim time. Sample logbook entries, etc. At that time, the specific hardware/software combination had to have been approved by the FAA and he sent me all that paperwork. Local FSDO approval was not required.

I don't know if he is still there, but companies have cultures and my conclusion from the experience was that the Elite culture was to go overboard helping users, even if there was not a lot of immediate money in it. YMMV, but I'd encourage you to make the call.
 
Ron Levy said:
As a professional instrument instructor, I know how important the two-way interpersonal communication between instructor and trainee is. For that reason, I am very dubious about the value of a "virtual" instructor on a CD. That said, I also believe in the value in IR training of learning on the ground in a sim and then practicing in the plane in flight. The ability of a sim to stop, back up, restart, and enter various procedures at different points is invaluable in conducting effective and efficient training. So, I see great value in the device itself if used by a good live instructor, but I have doubts about the outcome with that "VFII" system.

Of course, in order to count towards the hours needed for the IR, the sim must be certified, and certified ATD's aren't cheap. I have in the past used non-certified sims when the trainee already had all the hours needed so it was "train to proficiency" only, but otherwise, you can end up having to fly extra hours in the plane just to get to 40.
Click to expand...

As luck would have it, Elite was very easy to work with and I purchased some refurbished and new hardware at a moderate price. They also upgraded my software for the ATD. They sent me the certification letters from the FAA showing that my equipment was on the list. I sent the letters and list to someone in the FAA OKC office who confirmed to me my set up will count as a ATD, so I can get the 10 hours.

Very happy thus far.
 
ASA "On ToP" ver. 8.1.1. Need "installation disc".

Hardware: Cirrus II panel, AV1-H avionics stack. Has anyone used or seen this ASA ATD? ASA does not have a left-over of this disc. ASA Tech says other versions don't work. KMNV system acquired ~ 12 years ago, now has a bad PC. We need to transfer software to a working PC. Sony PC with a PC Tech who has Sim experience.
 
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