ElectroAir EIS 61000 Start Problem (Dual Electronic Ignition on Lycoming O-540-J3C5D)

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EchoDriver

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EchoDriver
I replaced my Bendix dual magneto (with its single drive shaft & plastic gears!) with an ElectroAir EIS 61000. In the subsequent 4 flights, every start has required repeated attempts, and several times I've not been able to start at all. My A&P/IA informs me that numerous airplanes with my engine (see title) all over the country are having this same problem.

Has anyone had a similar experience, and if so, what (if anything) has ElectroAir done to FIX the problem - not kick the can down the road? This is clearly a systemic issue for these engines and the STC, and one which could affect airworthiness (think about engine failure in flight for some reason other than fuel starvation or carb/inlet icing, and trying to restart...) Would appreciate any feedback, as I'm considering returning the kit and reinstalling the magneto(s).
 
EchoDriver said:
I replaced my Bendix dual magneto (with its single drive shaft & plastic gears!)
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Well, now. ALL our high-voltage magnetos have plastic gears in them. They have to, to insulate the spark in the rotor from reaching ground in the mag instead of being sent to the sparkplug. Complaining that they have plastic gears is like complaining that all your airplane's wiring has plastic insulation.

Plastic gears fail when the magneto is not maintained as per manufacturer's recommendations. I have encountered mags that had not been off the engine since it was built in the 1970s. Corroded internally, gears all yellowed and cracking from age and heat and ozone, points totally shot. Running stuff to failure in an airplane is just plain stupid. On the other hand, doing the 500-hour checks on the flight school airplanes, those mags all reached TBO with no problems. Only once did I have to replace the distributor in one, and that was due to a manufacturing error at the factory. There was an SB on it. Maybe 35,000 hours on engines and mags in my time there.

Electronic ignitions, now, present many failure points. Fragile electronics that hate heat and vibration. Many, many electrical connections. So far, electronic mags and the like have not been quite as reliable as properly-maintained magnetos, judging by the posts on POA.

Your starting problem might be something as simple as a botched connection at the mag switch. The ignition might not be receiving a "start" signal in order to know to raise the spark voltage. The old cars that had points-and-condenser ignitions had a similar problem; there was a ballast resistor in the power line to the coil, and the start voltage to the starter solenoid was applied to the coil side of that resistor to raise the primary voltage to counter the overall voltage drop caused by the starter. A burned-out resistor would let the engine start but not run. Now, you're problem won't be a bad ballast resistor, but a bad connection somewhere might make for hard starting. Or the Electroair stuff is failing already. Wouldn't be a big surprise.
 
I've had poor service from ElectroAir so you need to do a little troubleshooting of your own. Each time something else has been the problem because the aircraft old components don't work well with new tech.

Troubleshoot: Check that the ignition switch is not turning off the start side of the magneto when in start position. I have no experience with the EIS 61000 but in other installations the magneto that did not have a start-up spark retarded to TDC was not turned off so it was contaminating the start.

Troubleshoot: Check that the voltage to the new ignition system is high enough to initiate a good spark. Easy way to do that is jump the aircraft with a running vehicle. There's a minimum voltage necessary to create a spark and sometimes the starter turns the engine good but pulls the voltage too low for spark during the start.
 
Thanx for the info. Learning new things about the start process - including I may have to install a high-torque, high rpm starter...

Something about "a hole in the sky into which one pours large sums of money..." LoL
 
I’ve had the ElectroAir 61000 installed on my Piper Lance because I had concerns re dual mag failure. Since installation, the engine has been very difficult to start- like 15-18 seconds of engine cranking with a new battery, SkyTec starter- compared to the Bendix 3000 dual mag. With the magneto the engine would start in 4-6 blades but not now. ElectroAir had me remove the cover to the Controllers to observe the internal LEDs which should blink for every revolution of the engine above 60 RPM. I’ve noticed either no LED blink or intermittent. Controllers removed and sent back to mfg for a bench check. Has anyone else had this hard start problem? I’ve also had high CHT on #1 and #4 cylinders especially approach power setting 18” and 2400 RPM. Like 425 degrees high. Fuel flow is higher than with magneto below 7000 feet. What’s going on with this improved ignition system?
 
The only thing I like about my dual mag is it starts with one turn of the engine. The local mechanic said it is because both mags are being fired by the impulse coupler.
Yup it is a big PIA sending it in every 500 hrs for a inspection, better than the alternative...
7dda7f65-8316-4b60-8a54-f29fbde08ec7.jpg

Fresh ready for another 500 hrs.
d3f93c8d-d092-4266-b109-96e80b21576c.jpg
 
I had an old 64 ford tractor. After drying out the points for the 10th or more times one New England winter I swapped to an electronic ignition module. It was a 6 volt unit but wouldn't start the tractor while cranking. The voltage drop was too much for it to fire. I would have to crank for a few seconds and it would start as soon as I let the key go from start to run. This would let the unit fire the plugs while engine was still turning. Worked very reliable after I learned how it worked. Crank for a few seconds with choke engaged, let off key, engine fires up.

Moral of story, check the voltage into the unit as your cranking.
 
EchoDriver said:
I replaced my Bendix dual magneto (with its single drive shaft & plastic gears!) with an ElectroAir EIS 61000. In the subsequent 4 flights, every start has required repeated attempts, and several times I've not been able to start at all. My A&P/IA informs me that numerous airplanes with my engine (see title) all over the country are having this same problem.

Has anyone had a similar experience, and if so, what (if anything) has ElectroAir done to FIX the problem - not kick the can down the road? This is clearly a systemic issue for these engines and the STC, and one which could affect airworthiness (think about engine failure in flight for some reason other than fuel starvation or carb/inlet icing, and trying to restart...) Would appreciate any feedback, as I'm considering returning the kit and reinstalling the magneto(s).
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Has you hard start issue been fixed? If so, how did you diagnose and fix it? Or did you go back to the original dual magneto?
 
I seen an install on a Lance have issues that was stopping in from another town.

My gosh, what a junky, toy like product. Can’t believe the FAA certified it, it seems like something you could buy from Temu.

Grated most of the problems were due to a messy, poor installation with no respect to wiring but another problem included the housing gear missing 6 or 7 teeth. The whole install had about 30 hours on it.
 
Flyerramon said:
Has you hard start issue been fixed? If so, how did you diagnose and fix it? Or did you go back to the original dual magneto?
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The hard start issue is not fixed. I sent the two Controllers back for a bench check. ElectroAir said they met specifications. Previously, with the cover removed to observe the LED inside, I have not seen them blink with each rotation of the engine on starting meaning they are not getting the signal to energize the Spark Coils which could explain the hard start. So is the problem an installation or component issue? At this point after multiple phone consultations, ElectroAir says the only way to figure this out is for their top technician to personally look at the installation. Since I am confident in the installation, that may be the next solution. If it turns out to be an installation cause, then I will pay for his travel and time. But if it is an ElectroAir problem they will pay for the trip. Anyone else have suggestions or recommendations?
 
Flyerramon said:
At this point after multiple phone consultations, ElectroAir says the only way to figure this out is for their top technician to personally look at the installation. Since I am confident in the installation, that may be the next solution. If it turns out to be an installation cause, then I will pay for his travel and time. But if it is an ElectroAir problem they will pay for the trip. Anyone else have suggestions or recommendations?
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That's an OEM solution that sounds fair, and something rather unusual in today's world. Good on them for the offer.
 
Flyerramon said:
The hard start issue is not fixed. I sent the two Controllers back for a bench check. ElectroAir said they met specifications. Previously, with the cover removed to observe the LED inside, I have not seen them blink with each rotation of the engine on starting meaning they are not getting the signal to energize the Spark Coils which could explain the hard start. So is the problem an installation or component issue? At this point after multiple phone consultations, ElectroAir says the only way to figure this out is for their top technician to personally look at the installation. Since I am confident in the installation, that may be the next solution. If it turns out to be an installation cause, then I will pay for his travel and time. But if it is an ElectroAir problem they will pay for the trip. Anyone else have suggestions or recommendations?
Click to expand...
Can you provide an update on your journey thru this? R182 just went down for overhaul, and scratching our heads whether to go electronic ignition or not. Thanks!

Jim

Oops....I see they were a 3-post wonder ;-). Anybody else....input please!
 
EchoDriver said:
I replaced my Bendix dual magneto (with its single drive shaft & plastic gears!) with an ElectroAir EIS 61000. In the subsequent 4 flights, every start has required repeated attempts, and several times I've not been able to start at all. My A&P/IA informs me that numerous airplanes with my engine (see title) all over the country are having this same problem.

Has anyone had a similar experience, and if so, what (if anything) has ElectroAir done to FIX the problem - not kick the can down the road? This is clearly a systemic issue for these engines and the STC, and one which could affect airworthiness (think about engine failure in flight for some reason other than fuel starvation or carb/inlet icing, and trying to restart...) Would appreciate any feedback, as I'm considering returning the kit and reinstalling the magneto(s).
Click to expand...
Jim Rosenow said:
Can you provide an update on your journey thru this? R182 just went down for overhaul, and scratching our heads whether to go electronic ignition or not. Thanks!

Jim

Oops....I see they were a 3-post wonder ;-). Anybody else....input please!
Click to expand...
So, I started this thread with the original post last year. The fix was to install a high torque/high RPM starter to ensure that the engine reached the rpm's require for the system to engage. It works beautifully since then, with no problems. Yes, it's an added expense, but my R182 now gets 10.2 gph at 7,000' and delivers 150 Kts. TAS. To be fair, I also have flap gap seals on the plane; but the fuel economy and TAS have improved with the ElectroAir dual system.
 
EchoDriver said:
So, I started this thread with the original post last year. The fix was to install a high torque/high RPM starter to ensure that the engine reached the rpm's require for the system to engage. It works beautifully since then, with no problems. Yes, it's an added expense, but my R182 now gets 10.2 gph at 7,000' and delivers 150 Kts. TAS. To be fair, I also have flap gap seals on the plane; but the fuel economy and TAS have improved with the ElectroAir dual system.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply!

Shortly before we took the airplane down for overhaul we installed a new starter, same model, that spun it like a top. Wonder if that will suffice? We're currently waiting on pricing options from Smooth Power, Electroair's preferred supplier....so we'll see what they come up with. Did you go with the b/u battery or B&C alternator, and how did that go?

Thanks!
Jim
 
Backup battery, and it works fine. I almost feel like I'm back in my UAL 777! Well, not quite. LoL
 
I now have about 17 hours on my ElectroAir dual EIS on my Piper Lance IO540K1G5D and it now seems to be starting more easily but with a small change. Instead of initially turning on both EIS controllers and then pressing the start button, my sequence now is to prime normally then press the start button. Once the engine is up to starting speed, around 2 seconds, I then turn on both EIS systems and the engine starts immediately. So why am I doing this and what’s going on?
From my post last year I noted a starting issue. It would take 15-30 seconds of cranking before the engine would start. Hot starts were also problematic. It turns out that the controllers are monitoring the buss voltage and need to see no less than, I think, 9 continuous volts before they activate the spark coils. What I think is happening is that for a nanosecond on start up, the voltage drops below this threshold so the controllers don’t activate the coils. But after cranking the engine for 2 seconds, the voltage rises to 10 volts which is what the controllers then see when I energize them and immediately fire the coils. I mentioned this to ElectroAir and their response was that maybe my battery does not meet capacity- my Concorde 35 ACX was tested and it does- or there is an electrical resistance in my starting circuit that creates the momentary voltage drop until the engine is up to starting speed. The controller also needs to see at least 120 RPM to initiate the coils but that’s no problem with my SkyTec starter turning an MT propeller. Some have changed to lithium batteries which has a much better inrush current to the starter so there is less of a chance of this voltage drop. I queried ElectroAir if they could modify the programming on the controller by building in a delay to read the buss voltage but they said they could not as this was an STCed algorithm that could not be changed. It has been noted elsewhere that the EIS may bring out weaknesses in your engine and electrical circuits, not apparent with magneto engines, if they are not up to snuff. I had already changed all my high current cables and starter solenoid a few years back so that none of my connections has greater than 0.2 ohms of resistance. But for their part ElectroAir has been very helpful in helping me solve these issues.
So for those of you having an ElectroAir starting problem, try my technique. Please post here as to your results.
 
Really interesting. Thanks for coming back to "close the loop".
 
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