Eclipse to return to production

LDJones

LDJones

Touchdown! Greaser!
Gone West
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KMSP / KFCM / KSGS
They plan to ship an updated version, the 550, in 2013 for around $2.7M. We've come a ways since the "under a million" days when they first started. Reality is so unyielding. I do hope they succeed.
 
I hope they succeed. Aerostar, Learjet, Mooney, Piper all went through a number of corporate iterations over the course of their run, who knows maybe there are enough buyers in their tiny niche to make it viable. I wonder what production numbers they are aiming for to make this work, it won't be 500/year or whatever the perpetrator of 'the big ponzi scheme that produced a little jet on the side' was basing his math on.
 
Also, back when Eclipse started, my basket in Costco costed $170, now it's $230.
 
I had the opportunity to tour an Eclipse that had stopped at a local field a few years ago. Very nice.

I hope they succeed this time around.
 
I don't doubt that the airplane is decent. A PoA member, Dave Siciliano, considered a partnership in Total Eclipse once. I recall that he examined it thoroughly and liked what he found (he posted a good account at BeechTalk). But he didn't go along with the deal because it was expensive, and he already has a Baron, which is pretty awesome airplane as it is. The question is, do many people have more money than Dave does, for the value that Eclipse provides.

By the way, 2.7mil is still less than what a Pilatus goes for. I heard those were hovering above 4mil.

-- Pete
 
zaitcev said:
2.7mil is still less than what a Pilatus goes for. I heard those were hovering above 4mil.
Click to expand...
Basically what you primarily pay for is aircraft size (interior volume) and Pilatus has a lot more of that than Eclipse.
But Eclipse 550 will be now quite close in price to Cessna Mustang and at some point it would be interesting to compare both aircraft.
On another note I would have never predicted when I first toured the aircraft years ago when the company was a darling of GA industry that ultimately big pieces if it will be manufactured in Poland - my home country.
 
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I looked at Eclipse pretty closely. It's a very nice flying jet. I didn't get a lot of time in it, but got a general feel and many folks with a lot of jet time have talked about how well it handles.
I see Eclipse's issue having more to do with past problems and future service issues. If one can afford one, they would have a lot of choices for that amount of money.
I think of a jet as being something one gets to go fast, fly high and go far. The last part suffered just a bit when they changed to the current engine. Going from Dallas to San Diego non-stop would be really stretching in standard conditions with full payload. Get a little head wind or step ups and downs and one would have to stop.

When comparing an Eclipse to a Mustang, you are comparing a plane about the size of a 58 Baron to a King Air. The Mustang is much bigger and roomier; although, almost the same speed and range.

Wonder how many they'll sell a year at this price; still, I guess it's better than losing money on each one and making it up in volume :rofl:

Best,

Dave
 
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I saw one pull into PWK the last time I was there a few weeks ago. Seems like I nice personal machine, but definitely not cheap.

But what high performance toy is ever cheap?
 
I am eternally amazed -- and grateful -- that there are people in this world who are still willing to invest in aviation.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
The Mustang is much bigger and roomier; although, almost the same speed and range.
Click to expand...
Indeed, I checked and Mustang has roughly 40% more cabin volume plus almost twice as much luggage space. Considering that you can get a one-year Mustang (they say like new) for only 2.6 mln a perspective buyer has good choices and Eclipse is far from being a standout based on the acquisition cost. Some say the strongest selling point of Eclipse that it's operating costs are very modest.
 
zaitcev said:
Also, back when Eclipse started, my basket in Costco costed $170, now it's $230.
Click to expand...


Good analogy but..... That 170 dollar basket of stuff would cost 391 today at the 2.3 multiplyer used in the Eclipse comparison....:confused:..

I see about 3-4 a month that pass through here in Jackson Hole.. They are kool lookin little jets but my guess is when someone puts out that kinda cash they need some reassurance of future product support and the Mustang wins that game by a country mile.. IMHO.

Ben.
 
olasek said:
Indeed, I checked and Mustang has roughly 40% more cabin volume plus almost twice as much luggage space. Considering that you can get a one-year Mustang (they say like new) for only 2.6 mln a perspective buyer has good choices and Eclipse is far from being a standout based on the acquisition cost. Some say the strongest selling point of Eclipse that it's operating costs are very modest.
Click to expand...

Agree with cabin volume and luggage space, but payload with full fuel can limit what you can put in all that space <g>. I've got the numbers somewhere in my office, but payload wasn't much more than 650 or 700 pounds on either plane with full fuel IIRC. I'll look. Range was about the same too. The Dallas/San Diego trip non-stop was right at the limit of range with full fuel on a standard day.

As to operating costs, well, what are you including? Each manufacturer makes a great case that fuel burn is much more efficient than older jets. The Eclipse can be very close to my 58P on a long trip if one gets up high quickly and doesn't come down until late in the trip. Mustang wasn't much higher on a long trip with the same conditions.

Now, is the return on equity invested considered? An older 58P in nice shape with good avionics would be under $250,000 today with low engine times. Compare that to the acquisition price of these and consider the return one could make on that money if invested elsewhere.

Have you been watching turbine prices? A new TBM was about 3.5 million IIRC. A '96 850 just sold for under $2 million. It's hard for me to make $1.5 million and I don't want to lose that in five or six years. Maybe the market will improve and they will hold value better in the future, but one has to be in the financial position to take that risk.

Best,

Dave
 
An Eclipse instructor told us that the Eclipse type rating was the most difficult to get of all the jet type ratings he had.
 
That shouldn't come as a big surprise. Most other jets have full instrumention, FMS, GPS and autopilots.
Graueradler said:
An Eclipse instructor told us that the Eclipse type rating was the most difficult to get of all the jet type ratings he had.
Click to expand...
 
zaitcev said:
I don't doubt that the airplane is decent. A PoA member, Dave Siciliano, considered a partnership in Total Eclipse once. I recall that he examined it thoroughly and liked what he found (he posted a good account at BeechTalk). But he didn't go along with the deal because it was expensive, and he already has a Baron, which is pretty awesome airplane as it is. The question is, do many people have more money than Dave does, for the value that Eclipse provides.

By the way, 2.7mil is still less than what a Pilatus goes for. I heard those were hovering above 4mil.

-- Pete
Click to expand...

You can't compare an Eclipse to a PC-12, they aren't in the same league. The Eclipse is a turbo jet powered light twin. The PC-12 is a cabin class plane that you can stand in which will haul more than twice as much more than twice as far and gives you a real lav underway.
 
Henning said:
You can't compare an Eclipse to a PC-12, they aren't in the same league. The Eclipse is a turbo jet powered light twin. The PC-12 is a cabin class plane that you can stand in which will haul more than twice as much more than twice as far and gives you a real lav underway.
Click to expand...
Of course I can compare them. In fact, you just have, above. To say that one has a potty and another does not is making a comparison!
 
Send me a picture of you standing in a PC-12. Bear in mind that the PC-12's fuselage is an exact copy of the B-200, with to-the-inch cabin dimensions.

Henning said:
You can't compare an Eclipse to a PC-12, they aren't in the same league. The Eclipse is a turbo jet powered light twin. The PC-12 is a cabin class plane that you can stand in which will haul more than twice as much more than twice as far and gives you a real lav underway.
Click to expand...
 
Graueradler said:
An Eclipse instructor told us that the Eclipse type rating was the most difficult to get of all the jet type ratings he had.
Click to expand...

I've heard that too, from several Eclipse pilots. It's a neat looking airplane, and it sounds like it handles really nice, but the older ones really lack a LOT of modern amenities, I was shocked. Hopefully they can do better with the design and support this time around.
 
The biggest problem with the original Eclipse (other than the utterly unrealistic goals for the airframe and the company) was for some reason known only to them they decided to do the avionics in house, with little wisdom and even less experience. If the new company decides to outfit the cockpit with a standard avionics it should be able to do so. The cost of such equipage is only a fraction of $2.7 million.
 
wabower said:
Send me a picture of you standing in a PC-12. Bear in mind that the PC-12's fuselage is an exact copy of the B-200, with to-the-inch cabin dimensions.
Click to expand...

I didn't say "stand straight":D But you do stand and walk down the aisle.
 
Whadabout me Wayne <g>. Heck, some folks get a pretty big ego in there!!

Best,

Dave
 
Yep, one of the benefits of being of uuhum average stature <g>. Lots of head room for me in most planes.

Best,

Dave
 
steingar said:
If the new company decides to outfit the cockpit with a standard avionics it should be able to do so. The cost of such equipage is only a fraction of $2.7 million.
Click to expand...
Well we already know what the new company intends to do - they signed up with Vantage to provide all the FMS, synthetic vision, etc. How Vantage will integrate their software products with Elipse's current AVIO that remains to be seen.
 
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olasek said:
Well we already know what the new company intends to do - they signed up with Vantage to provide all the FMS, synthetic vision, etc. How Vantage will integrate their software products with Elipse's current AVIO that remains to be seen.
Click to expand...

Who is Vantage ? Another new outfit or do they use any of the established cockpit systems.
 
Workmanship, fit and finish on the original production airplanes was a joke. If they can't turn out a better product next time, they'll fail faster than they did the first time.

Teller1900 said:
I've heard that too, from several Eclipse pilots. It's a neat looking airplane, and it sounds like it handles really nice, but the older ones really lack a LOT of modern amenities, I was shocked. Hopefully they can do better with the design and support this time around.
Click to expand...
 
wabower said:
Workmanship, fit and finish on the original production airplanes was a joke. If they can't turn out a better product next time, they'll fail faster than they did the first time.
Click to expand...

Agree. I saw one of the DayJets ones that saw a few hundred hours use, and it was ragged. The interior was barely better than airliner grade in my opinion, and the outside of that thing looked like a freight dog. I had seen one prior, a new demo that was parked at Banyan for the day, it looked spiffy and nice through the windows. When I saw the one later all I could think was compare it to my experience renting a Citreon C2. The first one I got with 200 some km on the clock. It was sweet and it ran and handled and got great fuel economy. I didn't even realize it was a diesel until the first time I had to fill the tank. Next time I got one it had 5000km on it and the shifter was loose, the front end wasn't tracking as well, lots more sway. The third one had 27,000km on it and it was one worn out POS LOL. I realize the rental and air taxi markets are by nature tough on equipment, but it was certainly a rapid fall regardless.

If you say "Jet", people expect at least Citation quality, not Seneca.
 
wabower said:
Workmanship, fit and finish on the original production airplanes was a joke. If they can't turn out a better product next time, they'll fail faster than they did the first time.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Never mind the narrow, short based seats with minimal leg room if you have more than 3 people on board. Being able to have DME with an ILS tuned would be a great start. A coupled AP would be pretty good, too. And GPS. Or FIKI. Or a baggage area bigger than the trunk of my Mazda.
 
Some interesting posts on Beechtalk; one I found most interesting was how proprietary products mean much bigger costs for repairs. Fella there pointed out how when one has no choice but to purchase from one provider, pricing can get pretty ridiculous. He also talked about the fire suppression systems which is also proprietary leaking into engines and how costly that was to fix. Proprietary avionics was a real deal killer to me. Do you know what they've charged for some chip replacements and software upgrades? Probably best you don't ask according to him. Heaven help you if the Avio system has to be replaced.

Give me standard, third party systems where there is at least SOME competition and parts are readily available.

Best,

Dave
 
I didn't ask for permission to cross post this, so I'll just pass on the Gist of it from a highly experienced pilot on one flight.

Best,

Dave
=====================================================
Seems that the transponder started changing codes rapidly when he was on an IMC departure in busy airspace. He declared an emergency when all electronic went out....

My first mistake was to try and fix the transponder, and switch to #2. In the G-IV it takes a single switch (1 <> 2) to do that, but this wasn't the G-IV. To do this in the Eclipse you have to go to the MFD (center display), select a page, select the transponder function, and select the number 2. (Memory fades, that may not be precisely correct.) It's a real handful in the heat of battle, and I was near saturation. Remember it was rough as hell, getting dark, and solid IMC.

At that point there was a total electrical failure for an instant, then it came back on with all attitude indicators showing big red X's, the autopilot kicked off with the airplane badly out of trim and worst of all, every audio warning (I think there's 13 of them) and radio volume came on, and went to full, maximum, excruciating volume, and the volume control didn't work. I had only Com1 selected, but I was getting ALL radios including the VORs, AT FULL VOLUME. I've never in my life been exposed to such a ear-splitting cacophony of noise. Somewhere in there I heard my "buddy" yelling at me about heading and altitude, but he was the least of my worries. I did declare an emergency, but he may not have heard it. After a few seconds the emergency gyro came back on (or maybe it stayed on and I was just so disoriented by the noise that I didn't see it) and I went to wings level, hoping it was correct.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I didn't ask for permission to cross post this, so I'll just pass on the Gist of it from a highly experienced pilot on one flight.

Best,

Dave
=====================================================
Seems that the transponder started changing codes rapidly when he was on an IMC departure in busy airspace. He declared an emergency when all electronic went out....

My first mistake was to try and fix the transponder, and switch to #2. In the G-IV it takes a single switch (1 <> 2) to do that, but this wasn't the G-IV. To do this in the Eclipse you have to go to the MFD (center display), select a page, select the transponder function, and select the number 2. (Memory fades, that may not be precisely correct.) It's a real handful in the heat of battle, and I was near saturation. Remember it was rough as hell, getting dark, and solid IMC.

At that point there was a total electrical failure for an instant, then it came back on with all attitude indicators showing big red X's, the autopilot kicked off with the airplane badly out of trim and worst of all, every audio warning (I think there's 13 of them) and radio volume came on, and went to full, maximum, excruciating volume, and the volume control didn't work. I had only Com1 selected, but I was getting ALL radios including the VORs, AT FULL VOLUME. I've never in my life been exposed to such a ear-splitting cacophony of noise. Somewhere in there I heard my "buddy" yelling at me about heading and altitude, but he was the least of my worries. I did declare an emergency, but he may not have heard it. After a few seconds the emergency gyro came back on (or maybe it stayed on and I was just so disoriented by the noise that I didn't see it) and I went to wings level, hoping it was correct.
Click to expand...
WOW! That sounds like a sim instructor being an ass; to have that happen on a real flight! Yikes! :yikes:
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Proprietary avionics was a real deal killer to me. Do you know what they've charged for some chip replacements and software upgrades? Probably best you don't ask according to him.
Click to expand...
Chip replacements on proprietary avionics systems can be incredibly expensive. We just had a card replaced which cost $22,000. I didn't misplace a decimal point. To make it worse, the first two cards they sent didn't work.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
I didn't ask for permission to cross post this, so I'll just pass on the Gist of it from a highly experienced pilot on one flight.

Best,

Dave
=====================================================
Seems that the transponder started changing codes rapidly when he was on an IMC departure in busy airspace. He declared an emergency when all electronic went out....

My first mistake was to try and fix the transponder, and switch to #2. In the G-IV it takes a single switch (1 <> 2) to do that, but this wasn't the G-IV. To do this in the Eclipse you have to go to the MFD (center display), select a page, select the transponder function, and select the number 2. (Memory fades, that may not be precisely correct.) It's a real handful in the heat of battle, and I was near saturation. Remember it was rough as hell, getting dark, and solid IMC.

At that point there was a total electrical failure for an instant, then it came back on with all attitude indicators showing big red X's, the autopilot kicked off with the airplane badly out of trim and worst of all, every audio warning (I think there's 13 of them) and radio volume came on, and went to full, maximum, excruciating volume, and the volume control didn't work. I had only Com1 selected, but I was getting ALL radios including the VORs, AT FULL VOLUME. I've never in my life been exposed to such a ear-splitting cacophony of noise. Somewhere in there I heard my "buddy" yelling at me about heading and altitude, but he was the least of my worries. I did declare an emergency, but he may not have heard it. After a few seconds the emergency gyro came back on (or maybe it stayed on and I was just so disoriented by the noise that I didn't see it) and I went to wings level, hoping it was correct.
Click to expand...


I had similar horror stories from the Dayjet pilot I talked to, he was none too impressed with the way it was built. Neither was I.
 
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I should have said the incident on which I posted was one of the early Eclipes; the pilot said they spent a lot of time trying to find what caused the problem, but never did.

Best,

Dave
 
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