EAA petition against the exhorbitant user fee

Too late, they already laid down their arms. Let the victors behead the surrendered cowards.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Too late, they already laid down their arms. Let the victors behead the surrendered cowards.
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So when someone is holding a gun to your head if you don't fight then you can't fight when the gun is removed?
 
jtheune said:
So when someone is holding a gun to your head if you don't fight then you can't fight when the gun is removed?
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This.

EAA had to do what they did, or cancel Airventure. But if we don't keep fighting now, this will become the new normal.
 
The EAA had PLENTY of time to hire private controllers to staff the tower at OSH and to tell the FAA to *UCK OFF.... Apparantly the EAA are spineless creatures...:yes:
 
jtheune said:
So when someone is holding a gun to your head if you don't fight then you can't fight when the gun is removed?
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Fight? You call a petition for mercy after unconditional surrender fighting back?:lol: Off with the coward EAA heads.
 
I think it is reasonable for the EAA to pay something for the extra burden on the FAA during Air Venture. It come to $.60 each for Air Venture participates.
 
Geico266 said:
I think it is reasonable for the EAA to pay something for the extra burden on the FAA during Air Venture. It come to $.60 each for Air Venture participates.
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I was wondering what the per capita worked out to, is that per ticket or attendant-day?
 
Geico266 said:
I think it is reasonable for the EAA to pay something for the extra burden on the FAA during Air Venture. It come to $.60 each for Air Venture participates.
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Is that based on total attendance, including the 100's of thousands who drove in or actual flights arriving at OSH for the 7 days ???:dunno:
 
flyingcheesehead said:
This.

EAA had to do what they did, or cancel Airventure. But if we don't keep fighting now, this will become the new normal.
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They should have cancelled it. Every time you call the governments bluff on stuff like his, they cave.
 
Well, I know in the B25 last year we burned about 1500 gallons total - and that doesn't count the show.
 
FiFi burns about 500 an hour - and they gave rides the entire show.
 
DavidWhite said:
FiFi burns about 500 an hour - and they gave rides the entire show.
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Interesting... Let's do some quick math........

Last year the plane seemed to be in the air about 50% of the daytime hours so let us say 6 hours.... Times 7 days = 42 hours... Times 500 = 21,000 gallons... Avtax is about .20 cents a gallon ... So Fi Fi paid around 4200.00 dollars in just a week.. And that is just ONE plane.....:yes:
 
To pay the $429,000 agreed upon between the FAA and EAA you would have to sell a little over 2.1M gallons.
 
N801BH said:
The EAA had PLENTY of time to hire private controllers to staff the tower at OSH and to tell the FAA to *UCK OFF.... Apparantly the EAA are spineless creatures...:yes:
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From EAA representative Dick Knapinski:

On May 13, in a personal conversation with EAA Chairman Jack Pelton and EAA VP Advocacy and Safety Sean Elliott in Washington, D.C., FAA Administrator Michael Huerta and COO David Grizzle laid out this ultimatum:
  1. EAA will sign a contract and pay the fees
  2. Failure to do so means FAA will not give EAA the air traffic staff and waivers (including the NOTAM) needed to bring in all the airplanes for the event
  3. EAA is not allowed to run the event as an uncontrolled field or with retired/volunteer controllers
  4. If EAA doesn’t sign the contract in a rapid fashion, FAA won’t send the controllers
...

Using contract tower controllers was also studied, but FAA’s current contract tower agreement with Wittman Regional Airport includes language that states that the contract tower crew will not operate the tower during AirVenture week.
 
EppyGA said:
To pay the $429,000 agreed upon between the FAA and EAA you would have to sell a little over 2.1M gallons.
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As I've posted before 10,000 aircraft times 200 gallons route trip times 19.4 cents per gallon equal 388,000. As a data point flying a 182 from DC to Osh RTburns around 200 gallons.
 
Do I get credit for not calling them the past five years?

Dean V said:
True, and if you telephone FSS two times on that trip, you consumed 75% of the fuel tax you paid on that service alone.
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SCCutler said:
Hmm.

So has anyone ever done a reasonably reliable analysis of how many gallons of taxed avgas are sold and consumed in connection with Airventure?
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I don't know about reasonably reliable, but...

The closest airport to the population center of the US is M48. M48 to KOSH is 428nm. I would say that a pretty decent average fuel economy for the planes that come to OSH is 10nmpg - That's about what a 182 gets, there'll be twins and turbines and warbirds that burn more and there'll be RV's and Mooneys and whatever else that burn less, but that should be a reasonable guess. So if we assume that the population of pilots who fly to airventure is about as spread out as the rest of the folks in the ConUS, that's about 86 gallons of Avgas for the round trip, or about 860,000 gallons of avgas.

Not enough to pay for the ATC in full, but definitely a big chunk of it.
 
How much fuel is used by the airshows and 700-ship T-34's flying overhead each day?

flyingcheesehead said:
I don't know about reasonably reliable, but...

The closest airport to the population center of the US is M48. M48 to KOSH is 428nm. I would say that a pretty decent average fuel economy for the planes that come to OSH is 10nmpg - That's about what a 182 gets, there'll be twins and turbines and warbirds that burn more and there'll be RV's and Mooneys and whatever else that burn less, but that should be a reasonable guess. So if we assume that the population of pilots who fly to airventure is about as spread out as the rest of the folks in the ConUS, that's about 86 gallons of Avgas for the round trip, or about 860,000 gallons of avgas.

Not enough to pay for the ATC in full, but definitely a big chunk of it.
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flyingcheesehead said:
I don't know about reasonably reliable, but...

The closest airport to the population center of the US is M48. M48 to KOSH is 428nm. I would say that a pretty decent average fuel economy for the planes that come to OSH is 10nmpg - That's about what a 182 gets, there'll be twins and turbines and warbirds that burn more and there'll be RV's and Mooneys and whatever else that burn less, but that should be a reasonable guess. So if we assume that the population of pilots who fly to airventure is about as spread out as the rest of the folks in the ConUS, that's about 86 gallons of Avgas for the round trip, or about 860,000 gallons of avgas.

Not enough to pay for the ATC in full, but definitely a big chunk of it.
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Bad math. If OSH was at M48, your average fuel usage would be 0 the way you lay it out.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Hey, it worked for a first crack. If you can do better, do it!
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Well, what's the average distance to M48 from wherever in the states?

Avg distance from SEA/SAN/MIA/BOS to M48 is 1165 miles. Population is coastal heavy. Average distance traveled is probably 2/3 to 3/4 of that number. Call it 775 miles. If you shift the location to OSH, it's still probably going to be about 775 miles for an average trip. More from CA, less from the east coast. Call it 800 for roundness.

800 * 2 (gotta go home) is 1600 miles r/t
160 gallons of fuel per plane.

Edit: Whoa...distance from BOS to OSH...775nm :hairraise:
Avg distance to OSH from the 4 major cities in the corners of the US - 1214nm
 
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jtheune said:
As I've posted before 10,000 aircraft times 200 gallons route trip times 19.4 cents per gallon equal 388,000. As a data point flying a 182 from DC to Osh RTburns around 200 gallons.
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100 gallons to go 600nm?? You sure about that? Should be about 60 one way.
 
EdFred said:
Well, what's the average distance to M48 from wherever in the states?

Avg distance from SEA/SAN/MIA/BOS to M48 is 1165 miles. Population is coastal heavy. Average distance traveled is probably 2/3 to 3/4 of that number. Call it 775 miles. If you shift the location to OSH, it's still probably going to be about 775 miles for an average trip. More from CA, less from the east coast. Call it 800 for roundness.

800 * 2 (gotta go home) is 1600 miles r/t
160 gallons of fuel per plane.

Edit: Whoa...distance from BOS to OSH...775nm :hairraise:
Avg distance to OSH from the 4 major cities in the corners of the US - 1214nm
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It'd be quite interesting to get data on what airplanes go to OSH - Who wants to sit next to the runways for a couple of weeks and type tail numbers into a spreadsheet? I can take it from there... :goofy:

While population is coast-heavy, people who are closer are also more likely to go to the show. But, without data, it's all just speculation.
 
ClimbnSink said:
I'm seeing a very compelling case for user fees here.
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That or you've decided to ignore that the air traffic system as a whole is one system paid for by ALL fuel taxes.

If the tax isn't high enough, raise it.

If they want user fees, drop ALL fuel taxes including Jet-A for the airlines and go that route.

Not both at the same time.
 
denverpilot said:
That or you've decided to ignore that the air traffic system as a whole is one system paid for by ALL fuel taxes.

If the tax isn't high enough, raise it.

If they want user fees, drop ALL fuel taxes including Jet-A for the airlines and go that route.

Not both at the same time.
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^^^That^^^

Plus collecting user fees is quite onerous and expensive and would waste a significant percentage of the income. Just raise fuel taxes if the current rate isn't enough to cover the cost of the system.
 
denverpilot said:
That or you've decided to ignore that the air traffic system as a whole is one system paid for by ALL fuel taxes.

If the tax isn't high enough, raise it.

If they want user fees, drop ALL fuel taxes including Jet-A for the airlines and go that route.

Not both at the same time.
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Car gas is taxed and we have toll roads. So let the avgas tax pay for infrastructure, runways and such, then have user fees for all the extra hand holding atc services some pilots want.
 
The problem with the FAA's latest round of extortion is they have unilaterally levied a tax. Normally that is only the province of the legislative branch, who are all elected, by the way. I didn't vote for Huerta.

If this stands it will set a very dangerous precedent. Any government agency will be free to levy whatever tax they see fit for whatever reason. Any government agency can claim to be short on cash at any time, they've no problem at all burning through it.

The framers knew this, which is why they separated the collection of taxes from the spending. What the FAA has done is dangerous, and I doubt it could withstand a court challenge on the basis of separation of powers.
 
steingar said:
.....What the FAA has done is dangerous, and I doubt it could withstand a court challenge on the basis of separation of powers.
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Which is EXACTLY why the FAA hit up the EAA for cash just 2 months before the show.. They knew damn well courts cannot hear and decide on a challange that fast....

I hate to say it but............... This wonderful country is TOAST..:mad::(
 
ClimbnSink said:
Car gas is taxed and we have toll roads. So let the avgas tax pay for infrastructure, runways and such, then have user fees for all the extra hand holding atc services some pilots want.
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There's no toll road that will take me somewhere I can't get to on a public road.

I'm not a huge fan of big government, but if they're going to say they run something, they should run it from the existing taxation system completely.

Most toll roads out this'a'way are privately owned and are profit centers for companies, not government.

The only exception are so-called "HOV" lanes that allow people to pay to not be carpooling. That's a complete waste of space and violation of the public trust anyway, since the public pays for them.

Anyway, back to my point... I can accomplish the exact same transportation without the toll road. So using them as an example, isn't accurate.
 
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