E/G airspace clarification

[GeorgeC]

I'll be doing my XC solo from KGAI to KLNS next weekend. I thought I knew the answer to an airspace question that came up, but now I have my doubts and am wondering if I learned something incorrectly earlier in my training.

In the attached sectional image, I will fly over the MD/PA border along the highlighted route, between the magenta shaded regions. For the sake of discussion, assume I'm at 3500'.

At the border, what airspace will I be in?

Initially, my mental picture was "obviously not A/B/C/D, class G is close to the Ground, I'm at 3500, therefore I'm in class E" (per this thread).

Then, I wondered, "Wait, I'm between the magenta shaded regions; doesn't class G go all the way up to 14,500?"

And then there are the Victor airways; those are class E.

So, now I'm thinking the answer is "You're in class G, unless you happen to be in an airway, in which case, you're in class E".

Is this correct?

 

[EdFred]

Class E.

Class G higher than 1200 is indicated by a blue zipper or blue shading.

You will see this in the Rockies or in the UP of Michigan.

The magenta shading you see indicates Class E/G at 700 AGL vs 1200 AGL

 

[GeorgeC]

Thank you.

 

[roncachamp]

I'll be doing my XC solo from KGAI to KLNS next weekend. I thought I knew the answer to an airspace question that came up, but now I have my doubts and am wondering if I learned something incorrectly earlier in my training.

In the attached sectional image, I will fly over the MD/PA border along the highlighted route, between the magenta shaded regions. For the sake of discussion, assume I'm at 3500'.

At the border, what airspace will I be in?

Class E.

Initially, my mental picture was "obviously not A/B/C/D, class G is close to the Ground, I'm at 3500, therefore I'm in class E" (per this thread).

Then, I wondered, "Wait, I'm between the magenta shaded regions; doesn't class G go all the way up to 14,500?"

No. Examine the sectional chart legend under "Airport Traffic Service and Airspace Information", you'll find this explanation:

"Class E airspace exists at 1200' AGL unless otherwise designated as shown above."

And then there are the Victor airways; those are class E.

So, now I'm thinking the answer is "You're in class G, unless you happen to be in an airway, in which case, you're in class E".

Is this correct?

No.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The next question being - does it really matter? Yes you could get closer to clouds if it is G and get down to 1 mile vis (assuming you are not flying under the S.P. rules), but - would you want to?

 

[EdFred]

There have been times where I have needed the G space, not for vis but for cloud clearance. Usually to stay *just* below them.

 

[GeorgeC]

No, it doesn't really matter; it was a pedagogical question from my CFI. Either way, I'll be talking to ATC and will likely be on flight following anyway.

 

[JeffDG]

As an aside, many places where G goes to 14,500, at 3,500' MSL, you'd be underground.

 

[AggieMike88]

No, it doesn't really matter; it was a pedagogical question from my CFI. Either way, I'll be talking to ATC and will likely be on flight following anyway.

But do know this information about airspaces (chart depiction, clearance, vis requirements, etc) cold when it's time for your oral exam. It's something my DPE said he gets most of his applicants on since they don't know everything about it they should.

And nailed me to the floor on it. It was a question similar to you posted at the top of this thread. I totally got it wrong. I admit I shoulda prepared better on that area.

 

[JeffDG]

But do know this information about airspaces (chart depiction, clearance, vis requirements, etc) cold when it's time for your oral exam. It's something my DPE said he gets most of his applicants on since they don't know everything about it they should.

And nailed me to the floor on it. It was a question similar to you posted at the top of this thread. I totally got it wrong. I admit I shoulda prepared better on that area.

It might also be presented as a combined question of "What airspace is this?" along with flight rules applying.

For example: It's completely overcast. What do ceilings need to be at DMW in order to fly a standard 1,000' AGL pattern?

Ask the same question for the nearby 6W6?

 

[ajstoner21]

Random, but when you fly over the PA border, you cross close to "Stewartstown", thats actually where I'm originally from!

 

[skidoo]

I suspect that for your solo XC, your personal minimums are not less than the minimum for Class E. So, in that case, if you stick to your minimums, I believe it would make no difference whether you were in class G or E space.

 

[Doggtyred]

I'll be doing my XC solo from KGAI to KLNS next weekend. I thought I knew the answer to an airspace question that came up, but now I have my doubts and am wondering if I learned something incorrectly earlier in my training.

In the attached sectional image, I will fly over the MD/PA border along the highlighted route, between the magenta shaded regions. For the sake of discussion, assume I'm at 3500'.

At the border, what airspace will I be in?

Initially, my mental picture was "obviously not A/B/C/D, class G is close to the Ground, I'm at 3500, therefore I'm in class E" (per this thread).

Then, I wondered, "Wait, I'm between the magenta shaded regions; doesn't class G go all the way up to 14,500?"

And then there are the Victor airways; those are class E.

So, now I'm thinking the answer is "You're in class G, unless you happen to be in an airway, in which case, you're in class E".

Is this correct?

Class E... which is 1200 AGL in that location. On the inside of the magenta shading its lower - 700 feet. Class G BELOW that.

BLUE shaded line indicates Class G rising above 1200 ft AGL. You will RARELY see that anywhere but out near the Rocky Mountains. Definitely not going to see Class G higher than 1200 ft AGL within 60 miles of DCA.

The purpose of the Class E airspace is to allow ATC to provide clearance and separation under their rules between IFR aircraft. As a VFR pilot, this may not appear to apply to you, but its part of the overall big picture.

Have you completed the mandatory education requirements for flying in the National Capital Region (unrelated, but fundamental question)???

 

[GeorgeC]

Yes, I have my SFRA merit badge.

 

[Doggtyred]

No, it doesn't really matter; it was a pedagogical question from my CFI. Either way, I'll be talking to ATC and will likely be on flight following anyway.

WHOA....

Flight following is advisory in nature, and provided on a workload available basis. Do NOT depend or rely on them to keep you out of trouble. Its a great help, and most controllers want to help you in any way possible, but you are not the prime user they are there for.

Use them as a resource.. Not a crutch.

 

[Jaybird180]

WHOA....

Flight following is advisory in nature, and provided on a workload available basis. Do NOT depend or rely on them to keep you out of trouble. Its a great help, and most controllers want to help you in any way possible, but you are not the prime user they are there for.

Use them as a resource.. Not a crutch.

When I filed for my student solo XCs I told them to add 'Student Pilot' in the comments. I believe that they saw that and offered more help than I needed, but it was helpful nonetheless.

 

[GeorgeC]

WHOA.... Flight following is advisory in nature, and provided on a workload available basis. Do NOT depend or rely on them to keep you out of trouble. Its a great help, and most controllers want to help you in any way possible, but you are not the prime user they are there for. Use them as a resource.. Not a crutch.

Rogah.

When I filed for my student solo XCs I told them to add 'Student Pilot' in the comments. I believe that they saw that and offered more help than I needed, but it was helpful nonetheless.

That's a good idea.

 

[roncachamp]

When I filed for my student solo XCs I told them to add 'Student Pilot' in the comments. I believe that they saw that and offered more help than I needed, but it was helpful nonetheless.

In what way?

 

[GeorgeC]

Class D and minus ceiling

I was reading up on class D airspaces with minus signs in front of the ceiling, meaning that it goes up to but does not include the indicated value, presumably so as not to conflict with overlying airspaces.

In the case of HEF, the class D goes from the surface up to but not including 2000. This is fine in the outer 100/30 and 100/25 shelves of IAD's bravo, but would seem to conflict with the inner 100/19 and 100/15 shelves. I believe the bravo trumps the delta in this case, but I don't see what in AIM 3-2-5 would justify this interpretation...

 

[EdFred]

Using AOPA's flight planner it does appear that the B cuts into the D and not the other way around.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

When I filed for my student solo XCs I told them to add 'Student Pilot' in the comments. I believe that they saw that and offered more help than I needed, but it was helpful nonetheless.

Every time I call 800 WX BRIEF I say "student pilot" just for the weather briefs. When it came time to file a VFR flight plan for my solo cross country with them, I told them what I was doing (first solo XC) and they said "I'm going to add to the remarks section student pilot first solo cross country". I think this was a good thing.

 

[pericynthion]

Doesn't hurt, but the controllers won't see the remarks on a VFR flight plan.

 

[kimberlyanne546]

Doesn't hurt, but the controllers won't see the remarks on a VFR flight plan.

I know. I can tell them "student pilot" on initial radio call up for flight following, but I did not. The only people I told were the ones at Chico Tower and they were nice.

Oh and another note to students: as a total joke I wrote in the remarks section "hope we don't die" when I was sitting down, taking notes at the flight school, and learning how to fill out a cross country sheet with flight plan etc on it.

I accidentally read one of those remarks out loud when going through the motions over the phone with a briefer (tail number, type, altitude, remarks etc). He was NOT amused and would not put that in the remarks on his computer screen . . .

So no talk of death people!

 

[GeorgeC]

I put "student pilot" in the remarks when I filed my SFRA plans via DUATS, but I'm not sure it made a difference. My overall experience with the Potomac and Harrisburg controllers has been positive, regardless.

I tend not to mention that I'm a student pilot on the radio, except when I'm in the pattern. I did mention it once when calling up FSS from the air to file a return SFRA plan that I'd neglected to file on the ground.

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Class D and minus ceiling

I was reading up on class D airspaces with minus signs in front of the ceiling, meaning that it goes up to but does not include the indicated value, presumably so as not to conflict with overlying airspaces.

In the case of HEF, the class D goes from the surface up to but not including 2000. This is fine in the outer 100/30 and 100/25 shelves of IAD's bravo, but would seem to conflict with the inner 100/19 and 100/15 shelves. I believe the bravo trumps the delta in this case, but I don't see what in AIM 3-2-5 would justify this interpretation...

Here's the Airspace Legal Description of the HEF Class D airspace:

AEA VA D Manassas, VA
Manassas Municipal/Harry P. Davis Airport, VA
(lat. 38°43'17"N., long. 77°30'56"W.)​

That airspace extending upward from the surface to but not including 2,000 feet MSL within a 4-mile radius of the Manassas Municipal/Harry P. Davis Airport, excluding that airspace within the Washington Tri-Area Class B airspace area. This Class D airspace area is effective during the specific date and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen. The effective date and time will thereafter be continuously published in the Airport/Facility Directory.​

 

[roncachamp]

Doesn't hurt, but the controllers won't see the remarks on a VFR flight plan.

Nor any other part of it.

 

[nosehair]

Nor any other part of it.

Nice touch :wink2:

 

[GeorgeC]

Re: Class D and minus ceiling

Here's the Airspace Legal Description of the HEF Class D airspace: ... That airspace extending upward from the surface to but not including 2,000 feet MSL within a 4-mile radius of the Manassas Municipal/Harry P. Davis Airport, excluding that airspace within the Washington Tri-Area Class B airspace area. This Class D airspace area is effective during the specific date and times established in advance by a Notice to Airmen.

Thank you. So is this an example of "airspace by notam" that cannot be discerned by reading the sectional alone?

 

[roncachamp]

Re: Class D and minus ceiling

Thank you. So is this an example of "airspace by notam" that cannot be discerned by reading the sectional alone?

No, as there is no NOTAM involved. It's in the FARs and the AIM. Controlled airspace is designated in FAR Part 71, kinda. The regulations refer to Order JO 7400.9 Airspace Designations and Reporting Points, that's the source of the ALD I posted. FAR 71.9 explains how seemingly overlapping airspace is handled:

§ 71.9 Overlapping airspace designations.

(a) When overlapping airspace designations apply to the same airspace, the operating rules associated with the more restrictive airspace designation apply.


(b) For the purpose of this section—


(1) Class A airspace is more restrictive than Class B, Class C, Class D, Class E, or Class G airspace;


(2) Class B airspace is more restrictive than Class C, Class D, Class E, or Class G airspace;


(3) Class C airspace is more restrictive than Class D, Class E, or Class G airspace;


(4) Class D airspace is more restrictive than Class E or Class G airspace; and


(5) Class E is more restrictive than Class G airspace.

The hierarchy of airspace is also explained in AIM para 3-1-3.

 

[GeorgeC]

Thank you, that's what I was looking for.