DUI with 2nd Class Medical

[AgPilot006]

First off let me say how disappointed I am in myself and that I know how much I screwed up. I was arrested for DUI (by a game warden) and refused to blow therefore suspending my drivers license for a year. The officer said I was speeding and I wasnt involved in any type of accident.

I have already been offered by the prosecution to have the charged dropped to reckless driving but my legal counsel feels that I should go to trial and beat the case. I was NOT intoxicated, as seen on video, and the deputies at the jail gave statements that I was not intoxicated. I didnt blow bc of a CDL and I didnt know the implications. I had 2 beers at dinner. I am not making excuses, but it brings up my question.

Even IF I beat the DUI in trial or take the reckless how hard will it be to renew my 2nd class medical because of the refusal to blow? I already notified the FAA of the refusal within the 60 days. I am not an airline pilot and fly crop dusters for a living. My current medical does not expire until the end of April 2016.

I was just wondering what I should do now to start the long road back to flying. This is my first EVER arrest, I rarely drink, and have already went through a DOT DUI evaluation and program where I was not found to have an alcohol problem or need counseling.

I know I royally screwed up and I have to live with the consequences of my actions. Im just trying to make the best choices now to salvage my career as a pilot. I am 26 and want a future of flying. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

 

[murphey]

1. does your legal counsel understand FAA rules? if not, go find one that does.

 

[jesse]

Go here:
http://www.aeromedicaldoc.com/

Contact him. You'll get the best answer and you'll have the path you need to take.

The above is the only thing I would personally do.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Sounds like the prosecutor has handed you a way out. I'd get a good lawyers 2nd opinion, one who knows aviation law. Good luck.

 

[AgPilot006]

Sounds like the prosecutor has handed you a way out. I'd get a good lawyers 2nd opinion, one who knows aviation law. Good luck.

Yes, but the biggest problem seems to be the refusal to blow. Because the FAA treats that as if I blew over a .15.

 

[mkosmo]

Yes, but the biggest problem seems to be the refusal to blow. Because the FAA treats that as if I blew over a .15.

I sure hope that changes if you're found not guilty. If they still hold it over your head, the FAA needs to be retaught the premise of innocence regardless of arrest... And exercise of rights when the law is overreaching.

Sent from my Nexus 9 using Tapatalk

 

[comanchepilot]

Question: Was the game officer a law enforcement officer with arrest powers and full rights as a law enforcement officer under the laws of the state you were arrested in?

If Yes. Never mind.

If No . . . then that presents a very interesting legal question.

If he had to call a cop to have you processed, arrested and transported - that is an even better legal question.

The expenses incurred in addressing the FAA side of the issue are part of the damages for violating civil rights.

The OP's problem is the refusal of the breath test means the FAA will treat this as a .15 . . .. and he has no way to prove that he was not at 0.15, .08 or .000 for that matter.

Definitely give Dr. Bruce a call -

 

[Unregistered]

Question: Was the game officer a law enforcement officer with arrest powers and full rights as a law enforcement officer under the laws of the state you were arrested in?

If Yes. Never mind.

If No . . . then that presents a very interesting legal question.

If he had to call a cop to have you processed, arrested and transported - that is an even better legal question.

The expenses incurred in addressing the FAA side of the issue are part of the damages for violating civil rights.

The OP's problem is the refusal of the breath test means the FAA will treat this as a .15 . . .. and he has no way to prove that he was not at 0.15, .08 or .000 for that matter.

Definitely give Dr. Bruce a call -

Game wardens can arrest you. However no actual DUI investigation was made, no additional officer was called to witness, and game wardens have no video cameras so there is no video evidence of me outside my vehicle. I was arrested for "refusal of field sobriety tests" because I had recently dislocated my knee (medically documented) and told him I didn't think I could do it. Accordingly my counsel advised me that that is also something I couldn't be arrested for in the first place.

As far as I can tell even if I'm foundry not guilty of everything. I still may be denied my medical certificate simply because I did not blow.

 

[AgPilot006]

Game wardens can arrest you. However no actual DUI investigation was made, no additional officer was called to witness, and game wardens have no video cameras so there is no video evidence of me outside my vehicle. I was arrested for "refusal of field sobriety tests" because I had recently dislocated my knee (medically documented) and told him I didn't think I could do it. Accordingly my counsel advised me that that is also something I couldn't be arrested for in the first place.

As far as I can tell even if I'm foundry not guilty of everything. I still may be denied my medical certificate simply because I did not blow.

Forgot to sign back in before I posted this reply.

 

[James331]

Seeing you already notified the FAA, you might be cooked.


Talk to a lawyer that knows the FAA.




I'd also want to see what's in the police reports, see about having the reports sealed or tossed if you can, and your lawyer gets you off.

I'd want to know what's going into the databases, it's too late now, but if there isnt any record of the alcohol aspect, it never happened.

 

[bbchien]

I'd want to know what's going into the databases, it's too late now, but if there isnt any record of the alcohol aspect, it never happened.

On my way to check in at the Gaston's group but I have to say...James, you continue loading the hogwash. FAA already has record of the alcohol arrest. It's on the monthly data tapes. You always were out in left field.

This man doesn't have to miss a day of work if he does it wright, and it doesn't matter if he wins/pleads down or loses. It's the arrest that matters.

Buh bye!

 

[James331]

On my way to check in at the Gaston's group but I have to say...James, you continue loading the hogwash. FAA already has record of the alcohol arrest. It's on the monthly data tapes. You always were out in left field.

This man doesn't have to miss a day of work if he does it wright, and it doesn't matter if he wins/pleads down or loses. It's the arrest that matters.

Buh bye!

So just make sure it was really recorded as a alcohol arrest, stranger crap has happened. You got a span of time to report, does the FAA give you bonus points for reporting on the 1st day?

Just seems smart to gather the facts, gain representation on both the medical and the legal front before saying jack to anyone.

Or is that hogwash Bruce?

 

[flyingron]

The FAA is not going to be fooled by wet reckless pleas. Besides, he already blew the whistle on himself by making the report to FAA security. Do you think the medical guys don't talk to the security guys?

You need to stop drinking. You make bad decisions (driving, refusing to blow). If your livlihood depends either on your pilot's medical or your CDL, the next one will be a career ender.

 

[PaulS]

On my way to check in at the Gaston's group but I have to say...James, you continue loading the hogwash. FAA already has record of the alcohol arrest. It's on the monthly data tapes. You always were out in left field.

This man doesn't have to miss a day of work if he does it wright, and it doesn't matter if he wins/pleads down or loses. It's the arrest that matters.

Buh bye!

Agpilot600, contact this guy ASAP, I wouldn't waste any time if I were in your shoes. Best of luck, I hope this works out for you.

 

[Unregistered]

The FAA is not going to be fooled by wet reckless pleas. Besides, he already blew the whistle on himself by making the report to FAA security. Do you think the medical guys don't talk to the security guys?

You need to stop drinking. You make bad decisions (driving, refusing to blow). If your livlihood depends either on your pilot's medical or your CDL, the next one will be a career ender.

It would be a dry reckless. Not a wet.

 

[AgPilot006]

The FAA is not going to be fooled by wet reckless pleas. Besides, he already blew the whistle on himself by making the report to FAA security. Do you think the medical guys don't talk to the security guys?

You need to stop drinking. You make bad decisions (driving, refusing to blow). If your livlihood depends either on your pilot's medical or your CDL, the next one will be a career ender.

It would be a dry reckless, not a wet. And believe me, I have already quit drinking. I couple of beers is not worth it. I wasn't a big drinker to start with and I've seriously jeopardized my future with stupid decisions i made. I'll be walking a tight rope for the rest of my days.

 

[flyingron]

Still rather immaterial. The FAA is aware anyhow because of the security report. Further given the wording of question 18 on the application, you probably still need to report it (read the instructions for that question carefully, if they sent you to driver's school, etc... you gotta report it). They don't really care if you were convicted of the DUI or not. The fact you were stopped and refused to blow means you were drunk out of your skull as far as AMCD is concerned. Bruce (who seems to have transiently popped through) give you the true story. If you want the details, check his posts over in the AOPA forums medical section. There's a stickied thread with tons of details.

 

[comanchepilot]

Game wardens can arrest you. However no actual DUI investigation was made, no additional officer was called to witness, and game wardens have no video cameras so there is no video evidence of me outside my vehicle. I was arrested for "refusal of field sobriety tests" because I had recently dislocated my knee (medically documented) and told him I didn't think I could do it. Accordingly my counsel advised me that that is also something I couldn't be arrested for in the first place.

As far as I can tell even if I'm foundry not guilty of everything. I still may be denied my medical certificate simply because I did not blow.

Refusal of FST is called invoking your Fifth Amendment Right - you were NOT arrested for operating - so you technically did not have to report inside 60 days unless it was an arrest within the ambit of that regulation.

Trust me - do NOT plea to anything - not guilty works here since there is no - as in ZERO - requirement that anyone consent to a Field Sobriety Test.

You will be found not guilty.

It sounds to me like your license will NOT be suspended because you were not arrested for DUI - did you refuse a chemical test of your blood, breath or urine? Or did you simply refuse to perform the FST? This is a CRITICAL distinction.

Most folks have no clue about a) rights and b) what they are actually charged with. Thats kind of important.

The report to the FAA is the case of an illegal arrest for 'refusing to perform FST' is:

Motor Vehicle Stop on [date] by Game Warden. I refused to consent to a field sobriety test. I was arrested for that refusal. I was never asked to consent to a test of my blood, breath or urine and thus did not refuse to consent to a test of my blood, breath or urine. Report Attached. Found not guilty at trial. Court record and arrest report attached."

You will not be deferred for that - it does not satisfy the regulation of an alcohol arrest technically. It's what is wrong with the FAA Reporting Scheme. . . . .

Now, if you WERE asked to perform a test of your blood, breath or urine after an ILLEGAL arrest - one where your civil rights were violated due to a lack of probable cause to arrest in the first place [meaning the Game Warden arrested you for disagreeing with him and had nothing else to assume you were intoxicated - speeding by itself is not evidence of intoxication] and you have the case dismissed due to an arrest with no probable cause and a violation of rights, then you had zero legal obligation to consent to the test - which changes the reporting because the FAA then needs to acknowledge that despite their regulations, if an airman is not required to consent to the test then refusal needs to be a no harm no foul otherwise THEY are violating your civil rights in relation to your pilot cert.

You REALLY need to find an aviation lawyer to work together with the criminal guy to make the appropriate record for the FAA.

Now, if you were stopped for speeding, and the Game Warden testified he detected an odor of alcohol on your breath [the good old standby] then he has grounds to arrest you for DUI. And at that point you need to consent to the blood, breath or urine test and deal with the consequences of refusal.

 

[AgPilot006]

Refusal of FST is called invoking your Fifth Amendment Right - you were NOT arrested for operating - so you technically did not have to report inside 60 days unless it was an arrest within the ambit of that regulation.

Trust me - do NOT plea to anything - not guilty works here since there is no - as in ZERO - requirement that anyone consent to a Field Sobriety Test.

You will be found not guilty.

It sounds to me like your license will NOT be suspended because you were not arrested for DUI - did you refuse a chemical test of your blood, breath or urine? Or did you simply refuse to perform the FST? This is a CRITICAL distinction.

Most folks have no clue about a) rights and b) what they are actually charged with. Thats kind of important.

I refused the breathalyzer at the jail. Had I known the problems with the FAA I would have blown.

 

[JB1842]

FYI, field sobriety tests are not 100% accurate anyways, and doesn't meet the requirements of "clear and convincing evidence" and "beyond a resonable doubt" for a conviction.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

FYI, field sobriety tests are not 100% accurate anyways, and doesn't meet the requirements of "clear and convincing evidence" and "beyond a resonable doubt" for a conviction.

The FAA is not pursuing a criminal charge, this is a civil issue. And, instead of the FAA having to prove that you are guilty, it's on you to prove that you are innocent to the satisfaction of the FAA flight surgeon.

 

[Clark1961]

I refused the breathalyzer at the jail. Had I known the problems with the FAA I would have blown.

It depends on where you live but here in Colorado a couple of criteria have to be met before they can require you to blow or give blood. It sounds like those criteria weren't met if the deputies at the jail said that you didn't appear to be intoxicated. Of course your state may have very different rules.

 

[comanchepilot]

I refused the breathalyzer at the jail. Had I known the problems with the FAA I would have blown.

The other question is:

Arrested for suspicion of DUI you are required to blow.

Arrested for refusing to consent to FST, you are not required to blow.

The implied consent law means that you consent to a test of your blood, breath or urine if you operate a motor vehicle on the public roads and have been lawfully arrested for suspicion of driving under the influence.

That may not be what the law says in most states, but that is how it was been interpreted since there is no general legal right to randomly stop and detain people traveling on the highway and test them for operating under the influence. . . . . at least not yet.

 

[JB1842]

The FAA is not pursuing a criminal charge, this is a civil issue. And, instead of the FAA having to prove that you are guilty, it's on you to prove that you are innocent to the satisfaction of the FAA flight surgeon.

I know, that's why I put FYI to start.

 

[bflynn]

Someone help me out -

I though 61.15 would apply, but it requires a conviction related to alcohol. If this is to be a dry reckless charge, that wouldn't seem to apply, there's no alcohol related charge. I would have also though that reporting was mandatory, but I can't find that one either for just being accused and arrested.

Then maybe 91.17, but it applies to trying to fly. Even the sections of 91.17 related to refusal require that it's related to trying to fly.

What's the governing regulation here?

 

[flyingron]

Arrested for suspicion of DUI you are required to blow.

Arrested for refusing to consent to FST, you are not required to blow.

The implied consent law means that you consent to a test of your blood, breath or urine if you operate a motor vehicle on the public roads and have been lawfully arrested for suspicion of driving under the influence.

That may not be what the law says in most states, but that is how it was been interpreted since there is no general legal right to randomly stop and detain people traveling on the highway and test them for operating under the influence. . . . . at least not yet.

Randomly? No, but methodically yes. That's been a proven case in the DUI checkpoint legal decisions. I know of know state that allows you to be arrested for refusing the FSTs. However, usually there's probable cause to make the DUI address even without the FSTs (i.e., it's almost never in your interest to submit to the FSTs).

I'm not really going to dither more on this without knowing what state we are talking about. But I can tell you that in many states DUI enforcement is not limited to the public roads. California law for example says "It is unlawful for a person who is under the influence
of any alcoholic beverage to drive a vehicle."

 

[flyingron]

A dry reckless wouldn't spur a 61.15 report but he's got the sanction for the failure to blow already reported so the cat is out of the bag.

The 18v. question on 8500-8 is pretty clear on this. Even plead down, DUI actions need to be reported. Because he already reported to security and since the refusal record of suspension is sent to the FAA he's going to be in deep doodoo if he answers NO to the 8500-8.

 

[AgPilot006]

Update:

Even though I had a strong case I decided to take the dry reckless. The state dropped the alcohol charge and withheld adjudication so I wont get any points on my drivers license (insurance wont go up). I will also be able to seal my records. I am now currently in the process of jumping through hoops and getting everything in order for when it comes time to re-apply for my next medical. Hopefully all goes well and this just becomes a BIG EXPENSIVE lesson. I'm not out of the woods yet, but I can definitely see a light at the end of the tunnel. Thank you to everyone that posted and provided insight, it was very helpful. Also thanks for pointing me towards Dr. Bruce, I would recommend him to anyone having any issues.

 

[bluerooster]

What chaps me the most is the "implied consent" thing. I did not sign away my constitutional rights when I got a drivers license. And I will not give evidence against myself under the rights granted to me by the Constitution of the United States.
Even though the several states will try to coerce me into doing just that by threat of punishment for not doing so. And when they try to punish me for refusing a breath, blood, urine, test. The punishment will be overturned in the state court as being unconstitutional.
It's surprising how many folks don't realise that, and just live with a suspension of their driving privilege when they've not been found guilty of any crime.

 

[flyingron]

What chaps me the most is the "implied consent" thing. I did not sign away my constitutional rights when I got a drivers license. And I will not give evidence against myself under the rights granted to me by the Constitution of the United States.

There's no such Constitutional right. Maybe if you'd bother to read it. It says no person shall be compelled to be a WITNESS against himself. It has nothing to do with having evidence recovered from you.

 

[mjlennon]

There's no such Constitutional right. Maybe if you'd bother to read it. It says no person shall be compelled to be a WITNESS against himself. It has nothing to do with having evidence recovered from you.

4th amendment.

 

[lbfjrmd]

it seems to me that at your faa medical exam your AME will defer to the FAA. Usually it is then and only then you provide what they ask for... and only what they ask for! You will eventually prevail but they may ask for a eval by a addiction MD or alcohol experienced psychologist. Doubtful you will be asked to go the HIMS route.