Drones versus The Rest of Us

Again, not asking for classified info, and not whining to get it. To insinuate something, and then just say you don't need to know is just a bit condescending. So I guess I'll just trust the government will get it right, just like everything else they do. OK?

You never know who you are dealing with sometimes on the interweb, and the clearances they may or may not have, huh? ;)
 
You never know who you are dealing with sometimes on the interweb, and the clearances they may or may not have, huh?

No we don't, and no, we don't really care, either.

Perhaps you are cleared for and experienced with the operations in question. In that case, you're making a lot of noise for nothing, as you'd already know the answer, and you'd already know why it can't be discussed.

Clearly you don't.
 
No we don't, and no, we don't really care, either.

Perhaps you are cleared for and experienced with the operations in question. In that case, you're making a lot of noise for nothing, as you'd already know the answer, and you'd already know why it can't be discussed.

Clearly you don't.

So Connie is in drone operations as well? Or are you flying drones "on your days off"?
 
No we don't, and no, we don't really care, either.

Perhaps you are cleared for and experienced with the operations in question. In that case, you're making a lot of noise for nothing, as you'd already know the answer, and you'd already know why it can't be discussed.

Clearly you don't.

OK, I keep saying it and you're not getting it. I don't want details, and never asked for details. I asked a reasonable question about the nature of the ability to see and avoid, that is all. I will leave it at that.
 
So Connie is in drone operations as well? Or are you flying drones "on your days off"?

Neither. I'm also not doing what you think I'm doing. We've had that talk before.
 
Some UAVs have "pilots" and in those cases, the pilot's job is to fly, which includes traffic avoidance. If that pilot is ignoring his duty and is spending his time watching what the sensor operator is doing, that's not a UAV problem, that's an operator problem. This thread seems to have started out describing this type of UAV.

Of course, there are many UAVs which have no pilot, and fly on autopilot and the sensor operator typically is not paying attention to the UAV's flight path. This seems to be the type of UAV that we're discussing now. For those UAVs, where there is no pilot to "see and avoid", airspace is blocked out so that everyone knows where the UAVs are located. Of course there are exceptions, but it's being portrayed as if midair collisions are being narrowly avoided on a daily basis, and that's just not true.

There also seems to be an implication that there is something about UAVs that makes them harder to see visually. Other than gray paint jobs, they are as easy to see as any other aircraft of similar size.
 
There also seems to be an implication that there is something about UAVs that makes them harder to see visually. Other than gray paint jobs, they are as easy to see as any other aircraft of similar size.


That is all I was trying to determine. Is there a danger of not being able to see a UAV, drone, etc if it wanders off course due to a systems or mechanical failure and into airspace populated by GA or other aircraft From what you are saying there is no more danger than with manned aircraft.
 
I just thought I'd chime in and let you know that in my "job" that I can't discuss I also became aware of something that is going to affect the safety of every pilot flying in CONUS. I'd love to elaborate on this very real and dangerous threat to flight safety, however it can not and shall not be discussed on a public forum. Besides if any of you had the clearances that I do, then you would already know. I'll also say right now that anyone that doesn't have the clearances I do is in no position to doubt the veracity of what I have just told you. Further any questions about it on a public forum is tantamount to endangering the lives of many clandestine operators (such as myself) on top secret missions; the nature of which also cannot and shall not be discussed.

All I ask is that you simply thank us for making you aware of this very real threat to flight safety.

That is all.
 
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Without violating National Security, can any of the experts verify if this scenario is plausible?

Suddenly, the drone veers dramatically off course, careering eastward from its intended flight path. A few moments later, it is clear something is seriously wrong as the drone makes a hard right turn, streaking toward the south. Then, as if some phantom has given the drone a self-destruct order, it hurtles toward the ground. Just a few feet from certain catastrophe, a safety pilot with a radio control saves the drone from crashing into the field.

From the sidelines, there are smiles all around over this near-disaster. Professor Todd Humphreys and his team at the University of Texas at Austin's Radionavigation Laboratory have just completed a successful experiment: illuminating a gaping hole in the government’s plan to open US airspace to thousands of drones.

They could be turned into weapons.



Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012...rist-hijacking-researchers-say/#ixzz1yp7p6K00
 
I would guess it depends on the drone, perhaps RAIM would alleviate the problem? Are certified aviation GPS units required to have RAIM?

Anyway, the spoofing unit, according to the article, "infiltrates the GPS system of the drone with a signal more powerful than the one coming down from the satellites orbiting high above the earth".

Just one signal? Isn't the drone receiving something like 7-12 GPS signals? RAIM would allow the drone's GPS system to easily drop the false signal (or even several false ones). The article doesn't get into specifics, and without specifics, it's hard to say what's plausible. For the purposes of the article, it has to seem plausible or it wouldn't be newsworthy, but that doesn't mean that it really is.
 
I would guess it depends on the drone, perhaps RAIM would alleviate the problem? Are certified aviation GPS units required to have RAIM?

Anyway, the spoofing unit, according to the article, "infiltrates the GPS system of the drone with a signal more powerful than the one coming down from the satellites orbiting high above the earth".

Just one signal? Isn't the drone receiving something like 7-12 GPS signals? RAIM would allow the drone's GPS system to easily drop the false signal (or even several false ones). The article doesn't get into specifics, and without specifics, it's hard to say what's plausible. For the purposes of the article, it has to seem plausible or it wouldn't be newsworthy, but that doesn't mean that it really is.

What you may mean is FDE, where the receiver computes positions using all possible combinations of 4 satellites of those in view and tosses those SVs that produce the some large error...all using the assumption of only one SV in error (or small number of bad SVs).

Of course, this just means that the spoofer must spoof the signal of all SVs in view.

Since most GPS antenna are on top of the air vehicle, this spoofing works best if done from above the air vehicle.
 
What you may mean is FDE

FDE is a subset of RAIM, so I suppose I mean both of them. :D

The quote below is over 8 years old so I have a feeling (hope?) that FDE RAIM is more prevalent now.

"RAIM may be either Fault Detection (FD) or Fault Detection & Exclusion (FDE),although the majority of existing receiver designs do not include FDE"
 
Some UAVs have "pilots" and in those cases, the pilot's job is to fly, which includes traffic avoidance. If that pilot is ignoring his duty and is spending his time watching what the sensor operator is doing, that's not a UAV problem, that's an operator problem. This thread seems to have started out describing this type of UAV.

Generally, no. A pilot is usually involved in the takeoff and landing. The remainder of the flight by and large is either autonomous, or done according to preprogrammed input, or is operated largely on the direction of the sensor operator. In all cases, the UAV isn't looking for other traffic, and can't see it. The UAV operator isn't responding to TCAS information and isn't acting in relation to traffic. Some equipment has traffic avoidance capability, but most don't or can't use it. Furthermore, most traffic is seldom where it thinks it is, especially in terms of altitude.

Is there a danger of not being able to see a UAV, drone, etc if it wanders off course due to a systems or mechanical failure and into airspace populated by GA or other aircraft From what you are saying there is no more danger than with manned aircraft.

Some of them are difficult to see, especially at night, especially in cases where they are not operating illuminated, especially in the case of certain types of flight profiles that are in use. By and large that's the part that can't be discussed.

Is this "I could tell you, but then I would have to kill you" type of stuff???

It is not, and I said no such thing. You did. Don't be an idiot.

It's "I can't tell you" type of stuff. There's a big difference. Look elsewhere if you want someone to kill you.
 
I just thought I'd chime in and let you know that in my "job" that I can't discuss I also became aware of something that is going to affect the safety of every pilot flying in CONUS. I'd love to elaborate on this very real and dangerous threat to flight safety, however it can not and shall not be discussed on a public forum. Besides if any of you had the clearances that I do, then you would already know. I'll also say right now that anyone that doesn't have the clearances I do is in no position to doubt the veracity of what I have just told you. Further any questions about it on a public forum is tantamount to endangering the lives of many clandestine operators (such as myself) on top secret missions; the nature of which also cannot and shall not be discussed.

All I ask is that you simply thank us for making you aware of this very real threat to flight safety.

That is all.

So wouldn't it just be easier for someone in the Know to have said" Its classified information and thus you can't discuss it" rather than innuendo? I think most here respect the need to keep classified stuff classifed
 
So wouldn't it just be easier for someone in the Know to have said" Its classified information and thus you can't discuss it" rather than innuendo? I think most here respect the need to keep classified stuff classifed

My post was pure humor man (read it one more time).

Just an attempt to lighten the mood a little.:)
 
My post was pure humor man (read it one more time).

Just an attempt to lighten the mood a little.:)

Doh ROLMAO:rofl: My old eyes are just too tired this time of night.

But my question still applies ..............not just to you LOL
 
So wouldn't it just be easier for someone in the Know to have said" Its classified information and thus you can't discuss it" rather than innuendo?

Classification wasn't discussed. What was said is that it shouldn't be discussed here.
 
Furthermore, most traffic is seldom where it thinks it is, especially in terms of altitude.

I would argue that if this is the case, the equipment needs to be examined, as it's obviously broken, or the operators are not fully competent. You can't tell me that it is "ops normal" to not know where you are or what altitude you're at. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you're making it sound like it's completely normal and that knowing your location and altitude is actually the exception rather than the rule.



Some of them are difficult to see, especially at night, especially in cases where they are not operating illuminated, especially in the case of certain types of flight profiles that are in use.

Remember that we're talking about UAV use in the US. I know that UAVs go lights out in certain profiles, but even that is the exception, not the rule. I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect that legitimate UAV traffic in the US will be required to have external lights just like any other aircraft. If they are lights out, it should be in special use airspace where lights out operation is permitted. I'm aware that some small UAVs don't have lights installed, but when those are flying, there is a ROZ that keeps aircraft out of the area and a controlling agency that knows, at least generally, the status of any UAVs in the area.
 
I personally believe one driver for RPVs in the airspace is that big money sees it as a way to finally break or obviate pilot unions.

In any airline, possibly 60% of the payroll goes to to 10 or 12 % of the people, the pilots. Pilots are expensive. Conservative politicians hate unions because they associate them with support for opposition parties.

I worked for one synchopant engineering manager that bragged that he promised the Sr. airheads the day would come when technology let them get rid of the union. There are people supporting RPV for that reason.
 
> I personally believe one driver for RPVs in the airspace is that big money
> sees it as a way to finally break or obviate pilot unions.

Fred Smith at FedEx is already on-record with this sentiment.

WRT to those that haul self-loading baggage; I rather doubt that the self-loaders
will go along with the notion.
 
> Just one signal? Isn't the drone receiving something like 7-12 ... ?

Yes, approximately. But you don't have to spoof ALL the signals. You only
need to spoof four (sometimes 3). The others can merely be jammed
(intentionally sent data that says, "unreliable, no not use me."

I would hope that UAVs in CONUS use multi-sensor nav gear, INS, terrain
mapping or whatever ... to protect against spoofing or jamming. But given
the payload, power and budget constraints ... and the fact that UT "did it,"
it seems that the current DoD-derived UAVs are lacking what I expect of a
UAV operating in CONUS.
 
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I would argue that if this is the case, the equipment needs to be examined, as it's obviously broken, or the operators are not fully competent. You can't tell me that it is "ops normal" to not know where you are or what altitude you're at. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but you're making it sound like it's completely normal and that knowing your location and altitude is actually the exception rather than the rule.

In one particular country, I averaged about three near-mid-air's a night with UAV's. These were primarily an advanced, sophisticated type. When I say near, I mean closure, same altitude, less than a tenth of a mile, and on one occasion, around one in the morning, along the border of an unfriendly nation, had the wing of a UAV pass under my wing by about six feet. No moonlight, and we were close enough that I saw it without night vision. That was close.

The reasons for many of those conflicts are reasons that shouldn't be discussed here, but are applicable, and have nothing to do with being lighted or not. The equipment wasn't broken.

Not all the traffic reported, but what did, using voice communications (much of it doesn't), was seldom reporting the altitude where encountered. Several visits to ATC facilities in theater confirmed the same frustrations by controllers, also for reasons that should not be discussed.

Again, the reasons aren't important here, but the fact that these events did occur (with regularity) is important. I am not in favor of airspace integration with this equipment. It is NOT designed to function with other aircraft, and places like Iraq and Afghanistan operate on the big sky theory, not precise air traffic management. Even large air traffic passing through the airspace there, landing or departing in country is considered VFR, when on an IFR flight plan, day or night, weather or not, and is responsible for traffic separation, regardless of services being offered. Vectors are given, but ought not be relied upon, and when given are primarily there to protect military operations or operations in support of military operations, not to protect the participants.

I have also been in a location, which where a UAV crashed into our camp, after losing link. It was supposed to default to a marshaling point near the camp until link was re-established. Instead it crashed into our area. The wreckage was behind my hangar for some time. It also was a long-endurance, sophisticated, expensive type of UAV.

I worked closely with them, often on very similar missions and profiles. I did not fly them, and most likely never will (never say never). I am familiar with their capabilities. I've even carried them on many occasions to and from the theater to be put into or taken out of service, including some large ones.

Peacetime missions for these will continue to use certain profiles designed to enhance their low visibility, and these profiles and tactics tend to sharply reduce their ability to be seen, especially at night. Such operations are already being conducted within the United States and have been for some time, in certain locations.

One cannot replace a pilot with decades of experience with an autonomous program, regardless of the sophistication of software, with an inexperienced operator for the takeoff and landing, and call it good, especially in the complexity and density of the national airspace system. It's a bad idea. It's going to happen all the same, but it's still a bad idea.
 
In one particular country, I averaged about three near-mid-air's a night with UAV's. These were primarily an advanced, sophisticated type. When I say near, I mean closure, same altitude, less than a tenth of a mile, and on one occasion, around one in the morning, along the border of an unfriendly nation, had the wing of a UAV pass under my wing by about six feet. No moonlight, and we were close enough that I saw it without night vision. That was close.

The reasons for many of those conflicts are reasons that shouldn't be discussed here, but are applicable, and have nothing to do with being lighted or not. The equipment wasn't broken.

Not all the traffic reported, but what did, using voice communications (much of it doesn't), was seldom reporting the altitude where encountered. Several visits to ATC facilities in theater confirmed the same frustrations by controllers, also for reasons that should not be discussed.

Again, the reasons aren't important here, but the fact that these events did occur (with regularity) is important. I am not in favor of airspace integration with this equipment. It is NOT designed to function with other aircraft, and places like Iraq and Afghanistan operate on the big sky theory, not precise air traffic management. Even large air traffic passing through the airspace there, landing or departing in country is considered VFR, when on an IFR flight plan, day or night, weather or not, and is responsible for traffic separation, regardless of services being offered. Vectors are given, but ought not be relied upon, and when given are primarily there to protect military operations or operations in support of military operations, not to protect the participants.

I have also been in a location, which where a UAV crashed into our camp, after losing link. It was supposed to default to a marshaling point near the camp until link was re-established. Instead it crashed into our area. The wreckage was behind my hangar for some time. It also was a long-endurance, sophisticated, expensive type of UAV.

I worked closely with them, often on very similar missions and profiles. I did not fly them, and most likely never will (never say never). I am familiar with their capabilities. I've even carried them on many occasions to and from the theater to be put into or taken out of service, including some large ones.

Peacetime missions for these will continue to use certain profiles designed to enhance their low visibility, and these profiles and tactics tend to sharply reduce their ability to be seen, especially at night. Such operations are already being conducted within the United States and have been for some time, in certain locations.

One cannot replace a pilot with decades of experience with an autonomous program, regardless of the sophistication of software, with an inexperienced operator for the takeoff and landing, and call it good, especially in the complexity and density of the national airspace system. It's a bad idea. It's going to happen all the same, but it's still a bad idea.

That's it, I can't read this anymore. I'm calling this out as straight B.S. you can rant and rave, call me every name in the book, I don't care. I believe you are just a poser fabricating all this for some kind of ego trip. No one that has really "been there" talks like this.
 
When do we as citizens quit bitching online, organize and get our congressional representatives involved with well-organized information?

From my experience, sub-standard (safety, security and contingecy wise) technology gets demilitarized, repurposed and used in private industry and the civil sector becuase of assumptions that the military did their due diligence. In my professional opinion...it ain't so. Anyone with any type of QC, IA or regulatory experience - policy or enforcement (I'm sure) will concur.

IMHO, this is unacceptable as a pilot, knowing that my family may aboard and that there are unsufficient safeguards in place.

Doug has indicated that UAVs are being operated NOW and the gov't will tell us about it later. When? After a mid-air?

If we do nothing now, the time will come when it will be a forgone conclusion and the legal inertia of UAVs will have overcome the rights of GA pilots to operate in the NAS.

I'm standing by if anyone is interested in organizing and doing something. Otherwise, I'm not feeding trolls.
 
That's it, I can't read this anymore. I'm calling this out as straight B.S. you can rant and rave, call me every name in the book, I don't care. I believe you are just a poser fabricating all this for some kind of ego trip. No one that has really "been there" talks like this.

Speaking of ego trip... For a second there I thought I was reading a Tom Clancy novel, when reading your earlier posts with all these clandestine missions you're on.

"just thought I'd chime in and let you know that in my "job" that I can't discuss I also became aware of something that is going to affect the safety of every pilot flying in CONUS."

Yeah, no joke, they're called drones. Every PD in the country is going to be using them. What about that near miss in Colorado a few months back at 2800 AGL. Just so happened to be just a few miles from UC Boulder, where they have quite the UAV program going on there. No mention of that in the media though.

What about the fact that they're arming these? Or Federal agencies are using these to spy on people? Or that the Air Force can hang on to any data recorded on these for 90 days. (at least thats what the regs say). Surely I can't be the only one perturbed by this.

I know, I should be thanking you for warning me about this yet to be determined threat that I should be worried about, that you could share with me if only I weren't a simpleton. Perhaps I should wake up every morning and check the closet, under my bed, and the garage for Al Queda too.

Is it really that hard to fathom that these things can be hacked/can go down/can lose comms/can have near misses? If you don't, I call BS on that. You must be out of your everloving mind if you don't think that these are already being used in the US.

First time posting, ready to be laid into.
 
Speaking of ego trip... For a second there I thought I was reading a Tom Clancy novel, when reading your earlier posts with all these clandestine missions you're on.

"just thought I'd chime in and let you know that in my "job" that I can't discuss I also became aware of something that is going to affect the safety of every pilot flying in CONUS."

Yeah, no joke, they're called drones. Every PD in the country is going to be using them. What about that near miss in Colorado a few months back at 2800 AGL. Just so happened to be just a few miles from UC Boulder, where they have quite the UAV program going on there. No mention of that in the media though.

What about the fact that they're arming these? Or Federal agencies are using these to spy on people? Or that the Air Force can hang on to any data recorded on these for 90 days. (at least thats what the regs say). Surely I can't be the only one perturbed by this.

I know, I should be thanking you for warning me about this yet to be determined threat that I should be worried about, that you could share with me if only I weren't a simpleton. Perhaps I should wake up every morning and check the closet, under my bed, and the garage for Al Queda too.

Is it really that hard to fathom that these things can be hacked/can go down/can lose comms/can have near misses? If you don't, I call BS on that. You must be out of your everloving mind if you don't think that these are already being used in the US.

First time posting, ready to be laid into.

Read post 57. It was a pure nonsense JOKE. Wow, I guess we need a different colored font for humor.
 
Well, then, obviously one solution would be to REQUIRE that all drones have the same sophisticated "see and avoid" technology?
It's known as "sense and avoid". Jay, check if you have any WINGS seminars on the topic nearby. The last time here, NMPA under leadership of Joyce Woods got together with ABQ FSDO, Approach and Tower, and invited representatives from PA offices of local drone operators: Cannon AFB and Holloman AFB. Cannon's preso was most interesting because they fry missions to Melrose range, which is discontiguous with their airspace and so their drones fly amongst us. In fact the route track is posted to billboard at local FBO, Bode Aero. It was quite edifying and I got an impression that the military tries to be considerate of private and commercial aircraft.
 
No one that has really "been there" talks like this.

Perhaps you haven't had the experience with this equipment. I have, and yes, I can and do talk about that, within limitations. What you see is what you get. Don't like that? Tough.

Yeah, no joke, they're called drones.

Only by the popular media, and by people who want to sound like idiots. Otherwise, no, they're not.

What about the fact that they're arming these? Or Federal agencies are using these to spy on people? Or that the Air Force can hang on to any data recorded on these for 90 days. (at least thats what the regs say). Surely I can't be the only one perturbed by this.

Yes, certain platforms in foreign locations are being operated with offensive capability. It's an appropriate role.

Yes, federal agencies as well as some state agencies are using unmanned platforms for surveillance. Newsflash: manned platforms have been used for the same purpose for many years, and continue to be used. This isn't new.

For a second there I thought I was reading a Tom Clancy novel, when reading your earlier posts with all these clandestine missions you're on.

I don't believe I said anything about "clandestine." You said that, though.

It's called a job. I'm sure you have your job. I have mine. More than one. I'm grateful for employment. How about you?

I never met Tom Clancy, and he certainly didn't show up anywhere that I worked.

Doug has indicated that UAVs are being operated NOW and the gov't will tell us about it later. When? After a mid-air?

I didn't say that. I said that UAV operations have been conducted in the continental USA for some time now. What you add to that is your own statement. Not mine.
 
Different article, reference a previous post on the same subject matter, same hacking-intercept:

http://www.geek.com/articles/geek-pick/texas-college-students-hijack-drone-aircraft-20120628/

Texas college students hijack drone aircraft
Jun. 28, 2012 (6:28 pm) By: Ryan Whitwam

What’s that in the sky? It’s a bird! It’s a plane! It’s… a unmanned military drone that’s been hijacked by a group of college students? Yes, some smart young folks from the University of Texas at Austin managed to take control of an aerial drone’s course, and disturbingly, it was really easy to do.

Mind you that this was not some kind of fly-by-night operation. The students were asked by the Department of Homeland security to do their best to gain control of the drone (which is technically university property). It turns out that all they needed was about $1000 worth of equipment to seize control of a multi-million dollar piece of technology often deployed by the military.

The government became concerned about the vulnerability of drone aircraft after it became apparent that Iran had most likely taken control of a US drone and crashed it in Iranian territory several months ago. The Austin students, led by professor Todd Humphreys, used the high-end GPS equipment to spoof the GPS signal being sent to the drone. Spoofing the signal means the students were able to trick the drone into mistaking their signal for the real one. This allowed them to lead the drone astray quite easily. The aircraft being used employs the same unencrypted GPS signals that the government vehicles do.

This hack presents a serious problem for proponents of the domestic use of drones. If anyone with $1000 and a little know-how can crash a drone into things, that’s just not safe. It is currently illegal to use drone aircraft in US airspace without special clearance from the FAA, and it might take a little longer than expected for that to change.
 
In one particular country, I averaged about three near-mid-air's a night with UAV's. These were primarily an advanced, sophisticated type. When I say near, I mean closure, same altitude, less than a tenth of a mile, and on one occasion, around one in the morning, along the border of an unfriendly nation, had the wing of a UAV pass under my wing by about six feet. No moonlight, and we were close enough that I saw it without night vision. That was close.

The reasons for many of those conflicts are reasons that shouldn't be discussed here, but are applicable, and have nothing to do with being lighted or not. The equipment wasn't broken.

Not all the traffic reported, but what did, using voice communications (much of it doesn't), was seldom reporting the altitude where encountered. Several visits to ATC facilities in theater confirmed the same frustrations by controllers, also for reasons that should not be discussed.

Again, the reasons aren't important here, but the fact that these events did occur (with regularity) is important. I am not in favor of airspace integration with this equipment. It is NOT designed to function with other aircraft, and places like Iraq and Afghanistan operate on the big sky theory, not precise air traffic management. Even large air traffic passing through the airspace there, landing or departing in country is considered VFR, when on an IFR flight plan, day or night, weather or not, and is responsible for traffic separation, regardless of services being offered. Vectors are given, but ought not be relied upon, and when given are primarily there to protect military operations or operations in support of military operations, not to protect the participants.

I have also been in a location, which where a UAV crashed into our camp, after losing link. It was supposed to default to a marshaling point near the camp until link was re-established. Instead it crashed into our area. The wreckage was behind my hangar for some time. It also was a long-endurance, sophisticated, expensive type of UAV.

I worked closely with them, often on very similar missions and profiles. I did not fly them, and most likely never will (never say never). I am familiar with their capabilities. I've even carried them on many occasions to and from the theater to be put into or taken out of service, including some large ones.

Peacetime missions for these will continue to use certain profiles designed to enhance their low visibility, and these profiles and tactics tend to sharply reduce their ability to be seen, especially at night. Such operations are already being conducted within the United States and have been for some time, in certain locations.

One cannot replace a pilot with decades of experience with an autonomous program, regardless of the sophistication of software, with an inexperienced operator for the takeoff and landing, and call it good, especially in the complexity and density of the national airspace system. It's a bad idea. It's going to happen all the same, but it's still a bad idea.

Doug, I think we're working in the same country...
Anyway, just saw a report that 100%, I'll say it again, 100% of all actual midair collisions have involved UAVs. Report goes back several years and is for this particular country/airspace. Add all the UAVs that have crashed due to a variety of issues and I doesn't give me any faith in UAVs in "normal" airspace. I am firmly in the camp that keeps UAVs on the ground except for military ops...
 
Doug, I think we're working in the same country...
Anyway, just saw a report that 100%, I'll say it again, 100% of all actual midair collisions have involved UAVs. Report goes back several years and is for this particular country/airspace. Add all the UAVs that have crashed due to a variety of issues and I doesn't give me any faith in UAVs in "normal" airspace. I am firmly in the camp that keeps UAVs on the ground except for military ops...

Over what time period?
 
Anyway, just saw a report that 100%, I'll say it again, 100% of all actual midair collisions have involved UAVs.

I haven't seen that report, but most all of the events that I've experienced in theater have been with UAV's. A few have involved helicopters.
 
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