Dreams are slowly shattering.

immax01

Filing Flight Plan
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immax01
It has always been my dream to fly, recently i thought of flying as a career. I looked into it further and i became more set on becoming an airline pilot. However, the more research i do on this industry, the quicker my dream shatters:

From what i found out, and as most of you know, it takes many many years to earn a respectable salary in this industry. Now, i am not against the training costs, actually they would be cheaper than grad school (MBA), which i will attend if i don't go to flight school. My concern is the pathetically low salary for the first 5, 8, or even 10 years. So my dilemma now is that flying is my dream, but living on 20K for the next 8 years of my life is unacceptable, i simply cannot make that kind of sacrifice. In any other situation, i would just drop this idea and get a job which pays more, but it hurts to give up a dream because of factors that are out of my control.

I am confused as to what to do.. I am 22 years old, graduating college in May and getting a job in the business field. Then i was going to go to flight school in my spare time until i get enough hours to apply at regionals. It was a plan i really wanted to stick to. Can anyone share any optimism with me, shed any light on this situation? Am i better off getting a boring desk job, and be able to provide for my wife (im engaged) and family with a solid income, or pursue my dream and pinch pennies for the next 10 years? I understand its ultimately my decision but i would love your feedback. Thanks!
 
Get a good job making $80k, buy a cheap plane for $20,000 and fly on YOUR terms, instead of dealing with management screwing you over and getting furloughed every 5 years.
 
Professional flying is not for everyone as a career. Heck it might not be for me in the future. No one knows. However you can always fly professionally in your own plane. :)

Brent
Corporate Pilot
 
Matt Teller, one of our top participants here, has a different take on the money, claims he is not suffering so badly. I think a lot has to do with being careful and diligent in researching how you go about developing your career, and who you choose to work for.

Perhaps Matt will pipe up here...
 
Am i better off getting a boring desk job, and be able to provide for my wife (im engaged) and family with a solid income, or pursue my dream and pinch pennies for the next 10 years?

Yes.

Look, I'm 38 years old and I still don't know what I want to do when I grow up. The momentous decisions in life should not be the ones about how you make your money :mad: they should be how you live :cheerswine:

That being said being a professional pilot can suck in many ways that you don't even realize yet :fcross:
 
I think a number of cliches apply among them; "You can't win if you don't play." and "Be careful what you wish for." I decided to go the pilot route, although not the airline route, and, at this point, I can't imagine having done anything else... but I don't have a great imagination. :dunno:

"The road is long, with many a winding turn..."
 
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Boring but stable or your dreams....

BTW: nothing is for certain so that stability may just evaporate.

I say go for your dreams. You never know what doors (ie, opportunity) will open up along the way.
 
Richard's got a point (and not just his head...)- if not now, when you are young and have the flexibility, then when?
 
Matt Teller, one of our top participants here, has a different take on the money, claims he is not suffering so badly. I think a lot has to do with being careful and diligent in researching how you go about developing your career, and who you choose to work for.

Perhaps Matt will pipe up here...

Matt also has a great blog - inspiring even for us older guys who wish we were him when we were young.

I was in a similar situation in my senior year of college. Facing being a CPA for the rest of my life, I applied to be a pilot in the USAF - I wanted to fly BUFFs. I took the officer's exam in Des Moines, and they flew me out to Offutt AFB for my all-day flight physical. One of the last things they tested for was body measurements, and I was 1/4" too tall sitting height - the advanced trainer at that time was the T-38, and you absolutely had to fit. No waiver either. So, you make lemonade out of lemons. I now fly for myself, for fun, and even though I waited another 24 years to get my PPL, the wait was worth it.

But regret is a funny thing. I thought my dreams were shattered too. Do I regret not pushing the USAF, talking to Navy, or learning to fly on my own and take a low-paying flying job at that time of my life? Yes.

So don't allow your dreams to be shattered. If you want it bad enough, you can make it work. And the folks on this board can privide you with a lot of alternative paths to get there.
 
There are a couple of attitudes to approach life with. If you decide your dreams are impossible and then do nothing to achieve them, then you are 100% correct. Take it from a senior citizen, the dream you abandoned in your 20s stays there and stares at you in reproach for the rest of your life.

If, on the other hand, you decide to plot out all the paths to your dream and then start taking them, eventually you can get there. Take it from a senior citizen, the dream you make come true is sweeter than honey and ice cream.

Here are a couple paths I have already shown you.
Get a good job with that business degree. Banking earns good money if you can stand the stress. Anyway, earn some money and pay off any debts you may currently have.

Learn to fly at a local FBO. Fly at least twice a week. Best way I know of to find a great instructor is to hang around the FBO awhile and ask questions of the other guys hanging around. You will find the guy who just loves to explain things in a way that you find useful. I remember sitting next to a guy who said he was watching the birds out the window and then as they flitted about, critiqued their takeoffs and landings in a way that made so much sense. (By the way, birds get a 10 every time.)

Study the books as though you were required to teach them.

As soon as you have earned a vacation and have paid off your debts, take a 2, 3, or 4 week vacation and fly full-time (once or twice a day) at a Flight School or at the local FBO and polish off your PPL and possibly Instrument.

Buy an airplane. Using the best case scenario of 500 hours at $75 /hour, it will cost $37,500 to rent.

If you buy an airplane, 500 hours @ 6 gallons/hour @ $6 per gallon costs $18,000 to fuel.

So you have $19,500 to spend on aircraft purchase and maintenance to break even. At the end, you still own an aircraft worth nearly what you purchased it for.

If you get your commercial and then get paid to use the airplane, so much the better.
Here is another suggestion for building hours and for getting a reputation and resume that will help you along toward that dream flying job without giving up your day job or having to teach.

As soon as you have your airplane and your PPL, get into the habit of flying every week. Do charitable work. Become a regular on this website: http://www.pilotsnpaws.org/

As soon as you have the skills and abilities, join Angel Flight or a similar group and fly every chance you get. Join a CAP or Coast Guard Auxiliary flotilla and fly search and rescue. Join EAA and fly Young Eagles.

Or, give up, go on, and try to forget it.
 
Geesh Stan! My Dad got busted out of Army flight school because he was 1/4 inch too short (back in WWII)! Ashame a swap couldn't have been arranged. 'Couse, if my Dad flown back then, I might not be here today.

Things all work out in the end if one consistently pursues a goal over time. Hard to think that way when you're young, but over time a lot of things can go your way if you focus. When I left the Army, most of my pilot friends went into flying one way or another. I went into the securities business. They built hours doing what they loved, I built a career in the business sector.

At different times, I looked at them in envy as they flew the latest planes, did what they loved, had neat social circles and traveled the world. I did love the securities business, but there were certainly times the grass looked greener in the airline world.

Long story short, I built my own business and was able to purchase my own plane to use in the manner I enjoyed. A lot of my commercial airline pilot friends now wish they had done that. Some have done well, many have worked years and are caught up in this vast re-structuring of the industry.

Guess my thought is there is more than one road to get where you want to go; I didn't take the shortest road, but it did get where I wanted to go. Some folks never get there; they travel a lot, but don't reach their goal. Focus on your talents. Build skills that can get you where you want to go. Don't put all your eggs in one basket; flexibility and adaptability is highly important. Find something you can be really good at and take pride in. You'll get where you want to be over time if you build those skills and dedicate yourself to your goals.

Best,

Dave
 
It has always been my dream to fly, recently i thought of flying as a career. I am confused as to what to do.. I am 22 years old, graduating college in May and getting a job in the business field. Then i was going to go to flight school in my spare time until i get enough hours to apply at regionals. It was a plan i really wanted to stick to. Can anyone share any optimism with me, shed any light on this situation?

There are more ways to make a living in aviation than flying for airlines. You'll have a business degree, put it to use and start youur own business.
 
It has always been my dream to fly, recently i thought of flying as a career. I looked into it further and i became more set on becoming an airline pilot. However, the more research i do on this industry, the quicker my dream shatters:

From what i found out, and as most of you know, it takes many many years to earn a respectable salary in this industry. Now, i am not against the training costs, actually they would be cheaper than grad school (MBA), which i will attend if i don't go to flight school. My concern is the pathetically low salary for the first 5, 8, or even 10 years. So my dilemma now is that flying is my dream, but living on 20K for the next 8 years of my life is unacceptable, i simply cannot make that kind of sacrifice. In any other situation, i would just drop this idea and get a job which pays more, but it hurts to give up a dream because of factors that are out of my control.

I am confused as to what to do.. I am 22 years old, graduating college in May and getting a job in the business field. Then i was going to go to flight school in my spare time until i get enough hours to apply at regionals. It was a plan i really wanted to stick to. Can anyone share any optimism with me, shed any light on this situation? Am i better off getting a boring desk job, and be able to provide for my wife (im engaged) and family with a solid income, or pursue my dream and pinch pennies for the next 10 years? I understand its ultimately my decision but i would love your feedback. Thanks!

I am not trying to convince you one way or the other but I found myself in a similar situation a few years ago and I have been with a good regional airline for over 2 years and I make well over the 20K figure that you mentioned. Do some more research and then make the best decision for yourself and your family.
 
Wow guys, thanks alot for your input. You are a great supportive bunch. I'll definitely continue my research, and I wont let my dreams go that easily.
 
If you're thinking MBA, *and you do well* many of the opportunities available to you once you get the MBA will pay more than most pilot jobs. Do well enough, and you'll be sitting in the back of a corporate jet.

However, if you don't do well or you end up getting the MBA from a second-rate school, you may end up doing analyst-type work for a corporation, which carries a somewhat higher starting salary but much less adventure.

And some folks with MBAs go into entrepreneural ventures where the take-home is negligible during the first few years of business.

You have to decide what's really important to you - using your best vision for what will happen in the industry in the future.

Oh, and having the MBA anyway is a good idea: if you have a medical issue or the airlines go through one of their periodic cutbacks - or if you get in and just decide you don't like it - you'll have something to fall back on.
 
Do you want to fly, or do you want to fly for the airlines?

If you want to fly, and it's your dream to fly - Take the desk job, do well, make money, fly on your own terms. Flying down a river at 500 feet AGL and swooping over the ridges in a nice taildragger, or soaring with the hawks and eagles in a glider, or flying into a grass strip for lunch on a sunny Saturday have all got to be more fun than droning along at 35,000 feet.

I've heard many stories of people whose dream was to fly, they started flying for the airlines and couldn't stand it. I say, get your business degree and try getting a job on the business end of an aviation company, for example NetJets. Learn to fly on your off time, learn about the industry, and you'd be in a good position to start your own aviation business. :yes: Best of all, it'll be on YOUR terms and you can make YOUR dream be whatever you want it to be.

Good luck!
 
How's the condensed version go?

A student pilot is cruising along in his 152 and looks up to see a multi student and instructor are in a Seminole doing maneuvers and the student thinks, "man, in a few more hours I can get my commercial and CFI and start flying twins for pay like that guy is. Meanwhile the CFI is instructing away and looks up to see a Beech 1900 on one of the regional routes and thinks, "another 100 hours, and I'll be able to right seat on one of those 1900's and get out of this Seminole." The captain of the 1900 looks up to see the contrail of a 747 cruising through the flight levels, and thinks, "in a few more years, I'll be able to move up to flying jets like the big guys." Meanwhile the FO of the 747, nudges the captain, points up and says, "would ya look at those lucky dogs on the space shuttle getting to look down on everything." While looking back down on earth with a telescope from the shuttle one of the astronauts taps another on the shoulder and says, "wouldn't that be awesome to be down there in that 152 cruising along without a care in the world?"
 
That's a pretty good circle, Ed. And, true more often than might be thought.
 
Reading the original post, I see everything about money to be made and pretty much nothing about loving to fly airplanes. This isn't a deal-killer for an airline pilot; I know a number of them who tell me they don't really appreciate flying much but it makes them a good salary so they do it. Not a criticism to the poster, just an observation. I know several fulltime, professional CFIs who have thousands of hours and still teach and make less than that morosely depicted $20K. It is all in what you want to do. All those CFIs live just fine, if carefully on the financial front.
 
That's a pretty good circle, Ed. And, true more often than might be thought.

I think Ed's right on. I was flying from Kansas City to MKE and a dead-heading Midwest Airlines B717 captain sat next to me. I was reading Max Trescott's G1000 book and he was (to my surprise) very interested in the topic, comparing its features to what his aircraft's avionics had.

I asked him if he flew for fun, and he said "maybe once a year." He didn't seem happy about it either. I wouldn't say he would be envious of the glass cockpit Skyhawk I'm renting, but I think he was a little envious at the excitement and newness and joy of what I was experiencing.
 
I know several fulltime, professional CFIs who have thousands of hours and still teach and make less than that morosely depicted $20K. It is all in what you want to do. All those CFIs live just fine, if carefully on the financial front.

$20K? I can't even imagine. After taxes its really $10K.
 
Reading the original post, I see everything about money to be made and pretty much nothing about loving to fly airplanes. This isn't a deal-killer for an airline pilot; I know a number of them who tell me they don't really appreciate flying much but it makes them a good salary so they do it. Not a criticism to the poster, just an observation. I know several fulltime, professional CFIs who have thousands of hours and still teach and make less than that morosely depicted $20K. It is all in what you want to do. All those CFIs live just fine, if carefully on the financial front.


It's not that I am all about the money. I am not greedy, nor money hungry. But i do want to live comfortably, and what i was saying is that i would love to have a flying career but also i don't want to struggle. So please don't get me wrong, i am not in this with hopes to make easy money. I am just trying to figure out a way how i can do what i love, and make a comfortable living doing it.
 
I think the advice you are getting is sound. It of course is tainted by personal experience and personal preferences of the posters.

As others have mentioned, I would suggest asking yourself if your dream is to be a professional pilot, flying other people around on their schedule in big heavy, fast airplanes or if your dream is to fly for fun, on your schedule, in your airplane, where you feel like going.

I asked myself that question a few times when I was younger and chose the latter as what I wanted to do. I took the money career path and can afford to fly as much as I want to. It is also enabling me to buy a nice airplane - which I am looking to do this year. Taking this path can allow you to have a very nice life with aviation in it if you are comfortable with the aviation portion being on the order of a few flights a week.
 
From my old guy perspective, I can't emphasize enough doing what you like to do. If flying is that, there are excellent alternatives to the airlines as Henning and Dave S pointed out. Like your plan B I got an MBA, had a number of interesting jobs that paid pretty well, had fun and saved as I went along. Not that long ago the powered airplane bug bit me and I had an opportunity (got fired:p) to start my own business. I had enough put away (and an understanding spouse) to do both and formed the business with the idea of being able to fly to customers. That gave me the chance to collect some hours, collect some certificates and hang out with pilot types. Recently I bumped into a chance to fly Part 91 jets and am now enjoying that.

The point is that you can fly going either path. Don't try to script your life (won't work). Just make sure you're going to enjoy the ride and either path (or another you haven't even thought of yet) will be just fine.
 
Reading the original post, I see everything about money to be made and pretty much nothing about loving to fly airplanes. This isn't a deal-killer for an airline pilot; I know a number of them who tell me they don't really appreciate flying much but it makes them a good salary so they do it. Not a criticism to the poster, just an observation. I know several fulltime, professional CFIs who have thousands of hours and still teach and make less than that morosely depicted $20K. It is all in what you want to do. All those CFIs live just fine, if carefully on the financial front.

Right on!!!

If you love to fly, do it and don't look back. If you love to have $$$, do something else and don't look back. If you're not happy, it IS NOT worth it. Repeat, it IS NOT worth it. It's a long life - no sense in going through it unhappy.
 
Hey Spike and Stan, I appreciate the mention. I just got home from an out-and-back that turned into a three day trip.

I don't think I can say anything that someone on here hasn't said yet, but I would reiterate the thought that, if it's your dream, why not go for it now? I'm two weeks away from the end of my first year at my airline. It's not a perfect job, it has it's moments of ****ing me off beyond belief. But then I watch the sunrise over the Atlantic from the cloud tops at 16,000, or fly 250kts to a 3 mile final and then put the breaks on to hit the 1000 footers, or fly through some heavy weather and get congratulated by 19 people who are just happy to be on the ground, or
I get to see the sun set over the Adirondacks on a clear enough night that I can see downtown Boston and downtown New York at the same time. I loved my job at the TV station, but nothing in this world beats getting paid to do what I do four or five days a week.

As far as the salary goes...base guarantee is less than $20k, but you'd have to work harder to get only your base than you do to get paid more. Here at CJC, our first year FO pay is $21/hr. That gives a base of just over $18k a year (you get paid for 75 hours per month, no matter what you fly). Second year (which I start getting in two weeks) is $26/hr. There are A LOT of places that pay better than that, but some that are worse (generally pay is dependent upon the number of seats you fly). Nevertheless, at first year pay I was able to move myself, my fiancee (I too am engaged), and her idiot cat halfway across the country (Des Moines, IA to Lebanon, NH); then move again, three months later, to Waterville, Me. We had to budget carefully, almost literally count pennies at first, but once she found a job (oh ya, she was unemployed for the first five months I worked here) things have gotten a lot better. We have a great condo here in WVL, we bought her a car, and now we're looking at moving to Portland when I switch airplanes. While my base may only be $18k a year, at the six month mark I had made a couple hundred less than $15k. Not huge, certainly not going to set a record, but it's enough to live on comfortably. If this month and next month play out as they're projected (92 and 117 hrs flown, respectively), I should be decently over $30k for the year. I don't work much "overtime" beyond what I'm scheduled for at the start of the month, and I'm able to pick my schedule to a decent degree. And the captains do a lot better for themselves!

Don't get me wrong, it has it's drawbacks! Somewhat unpredictable schedules, maintenance delays, weather delays, ****y passengers, the TSA...pretty much everything out there can and will conspire to give you bad days, but in the end, you're still getting paid to fly.

This week has been a perfect example of the bad side. We were supposed to come in at 3:55pm on Tuesday, fly down to Boston, sit for an hour, then fly Rockland and Augusta and be done. The plane broke earlier in the day and got ferried to Albany (our mx base). A new plane was ferried in for us, so we could operate our flights only 2.5 hours late. The plane we got (used to be one of my favorite airframes) was a dud. By the time we got back to Augusta, we had four write ups on it...two of which were killers. We ferried out to Albany, too, and ended up spending the night. Wednesday rolls around, we show at noon, take the plane to Boston, make one round trip to Augusta, and kill it again. Ferry to Albany, and spend the night because there's not replacement planes. Today rolls around, we take the plane at noon again, ferry to Boston, fly an Islip round, and kill the plane again. This time it's not ferryable. Fortunately there's another plane available, and we run the last flight to Rockland/Augusta 2 hours late. The passengers were ****ed, the gate agents were grumpy, we were exhausted...but after an hour in ice filled clouds, we broke out to crystal clear skies over RKD, and moonlight that was bright enough to read our charts by.

At least twice a week I get asked "when I'm going to jet training," or told that my "tiny little prop plane is the smallest thing I've ever flown on," or asked if I'm "serious that I expect people to ride on this thing with no bathroom or drink service," but it's worth it to see their faces when we fly through the Nor'easter and get them on the ground at the other end. I'd say a couple times a month I get either "when are you going to jet training," or "where are you going to sit [apparently people don't get that I'm a pilot, not a flight attendant, when I close the door]". Those two questions are probably my greatest pet peeves about this job, and I don't think either of them would happen if I flew anything other than the 1900 - and despite it all, I'd keep flying the 1900 if I could.

Personally, I like flying the turbo-prop. It's a lot less systems management and a lot more of simply flying the plane. You don't get to buzz down the river at 500 feet, or just go up to the next town for lunch, which is something I really really miss doing, but I put 800 hours in my logbook this year and didn't pay for any of it, so I'm not going to complain too much.

I do have a large loan out to cover all my training, but even so, I can't imagine doing anything else. It was my dream, back when I was working overnights at the TV station, and now it's what I get to do every day. I'd be fine if I was still in journalism, but I'd much rather be where I am today. Who knows what the future of the industry will be (hopefully I'll be in a corporate department before it gets bad again), but for now I'm getting paid to fly a lot, I get to spend quite a bit of time at home, and I don't have to worry about creditors coming for me...and that's all that matters to me.

PS
I'm sorry for any misspelled, grammatical errors, or other travesties I may have committed upon the English language...it's been a long couple days.
 
Matt,
Great writeup! And be happy. When you have an MX issue, you can call for another plane or wait it out. Think of all those freight dogs out there who are scared to say "no!" to a flight!
 
I did not intend to criticize you for mentioning the money part. The thing that struck me was that both in person and on these forums people talk about the difficulty of aviation as both a career or hobby/avocation and they speak of their love of flying. I just didn't get that in your post, though I realize you may lie in bed at night wanting to go fly a plane so badly you cannot fall asleep. We've been there.

One thing that drove me to be a fulltime CFI, and make $15K a yr. or whatever, was that I have never trusted the adage that "I'll make my bucks now somehow and SOMEDAY I will be able to...[follow such-and-such dream, whatever it is]" as I have seen so many people go that route and "someday" either never comes or the dream fades to insignificance and is dropped or hassles such as medical issues crop up and destroy any chance. You can get to be 65 and have accumulated a million bucks in the bank and have raised a great family in a nice home and sent everyone to school and had all the cool expensive "stuff" a family can have to play with and all of a sudden realize time is past for whatever you dreamed of doing as a young person. We've all seen it. How many times does some older person say to you, "Well, what I really wanted to do was...but life got in the way." Or some such thing.

In most cases, according to what I have witnessed, unless you are born to someone who has and will give or leave you tons of money, you are probably either going to have to follow the dream and forget the comfy income or delay [blowoff] what you REALLY want to do and hope that down the road you'll be able to shake loose some time to try it out and also hope that you don't become an unhappy person who tells himself man, I'll never be any good at this, really, because I don't have enough years left to get good and what if I'd NOT become an accountant or bank manager or.... But it's a personal decision.
 
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I have never trusted the adage that "I'll make my bucks now somehow and SOMEDAY I will be able to...[follow such-and-such dream, whatever it is]" as I have seen so many people go that route and "someday" either never comes or the dream fades to insignificance and is dropped or hassles such as medical issues crop up and destroy any chance.
As another older person, I think this is all very true. Besides, there are no guarantees with whatever someone decides to pick as their "safe" career either. The career that is hot today may not be around in 20 years.
 
I am another who has followed my passions as a living since I was quite young. Flying was always in my blood, though I didn't get my PPL until 33. And just recently I left a career of almost 35 years to enter aviation on a full time basis.

And to let you know- there are many other positions within aviation which are just as much fun, (in many ways MORE fun) and pay better initially, but maybe top out a bit sooner.

When my friends ask why I went corporate instead of commercial, I respond that "I'd rather be a chauffeur than a bus driver".

Another opportunity- I just heard from a company in AZ. At my present hrs, they would pay me $45K a year to come teach for them. And it goes up from there! I sure wish I had made $45K when I was actively teaching! CFI's are now making much more than they did, even as recently as 5-10 years ago. There is a definite shortage of CFI's these days, as many are seeing heavy metal in their futures with the airlines.

Following your passions can never be a bad choice, but be prepared to sacrifice a bit for it. And right now there is more opportunity than ever in aviation, provided you look at the industry as a whole- not just at the airlines.
 
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