DPE vs. FAA Inspector

kenjr said:
I mean come on, we had the ELT listed as inspected as a part of the annual - the IA didn't write 91.205 on it. So, during the checkride I get the A&P and the IA on the phone who tell the guy straight up they did it and can fax him something ASAP to put in the logbook, etc... and the guy fails me? I mean come on - you are telling me that's the best solution to this? Fail a guy who is acing his oral and is ready to go fly over something that's not my fault and the right people are on the line to corroborate the work being done? Come on...I did my homework and saw the ELT was listed in the logbook and had it noted. Perhaps the FAA should have a PDF or something available for PPL candidates to show exactly what they need to provide to a DPE from an inspection perspective...maybe some examples of what those look like. Total BS.

Anyway, it's over...I just hit 100 hours and am having a blast. It is what it is...
Click to expand...

Actually I would like to hear not just your side of the story but the DPE's as well. As usual when one gets the whole story it changes.....dramatically.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Could he let something slide? Sure, but in the oddest ways that stuff comes back to bite you if not careful. Just like you going to his POI and complaining, he has to answer for that.
Click to expand...

Once again, you guys have no idea. I don't have time to write up 20 pages of exactly what was said and what happened during my checkride. HE was the one that called the FSDO, not me. Even though the guy failed me and he clearly shouldn't have - I never filed a complaint against him. I don't work like that.

I didn't think he was a bad guy, but at some point you can choose to be a dick or not to be a dick. It's that simple. When you have your POI telling you, it's OK - let the guy get his plane inspected and do the ride and you say no because you already f'd up and said no when you didn't know...that blows.

The DPE is literally apologizing to me profusely as I'm leaving saying stuff like, "You sure are handling this well...". I was in shock. A guy comes in 110% prepared, makes a 94 on his written, aces the oral and you find one tiny bone to pick...I mean come on.

I'm not calling conspiracy - I already said that. However, going back to my original point - DPE's like this wouldn't be booked 5 weeks out if they didn't pull crap like this.

Oh, and this is the same DPE who told me that pilots can't make entires in aircraft logbooks. I had to go digging in the FAR's and show him a couple examples of written exam questions to prove him wrong.

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that's not the way a PPL checkride is supposed to go down...
 
A different angle on the DPE vs. FAA Inspector question:

Are they insured?

I'm just wondering, if there's a mishap during a private-pilot check ride, does the DPE have insurance coverage? How about the FAA inspector?
 
kenjr said:
Once again, you guys have no idea. I don't have time to write up 20 pages of exactly what was said and what happened during my checkride. HE was the one that called the FSDO, not me. Even though the guy failed me and he clearly shouldn't have - I never filed a complaint against him. I don't work like that.

I didn't think he was a bad guy, but at some point you can choose to be a dick or not to be a dick. It's that simple. When you have your POI telling you, it's OK - let the guy get his plane inspected and do the ride and you say no because you already f'd up and said no when you didn't know...that blows.

The DPE is literally apologizing to me profusely as I'm leaving saying stuff like, "You sure are handling this well...". I was in shock. A guy comes in 110% prepared, makes a 94 on his written, aces the oral and you find one tiny bone to pick...I mean come on.

I'm not calling conspiracy - I already said that. However, going back to my original point - DPE's like this wouldn't be booked 5 weeks out if they didn't pull crap like this.

Oh, and this is the same DPE who told me that pilots can't make entires in aircraft logbooks. I had to go digging in the FAR's and show him a couple examples of written exam questions to prove him wrong.

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that's not the way a PPL checkride is supposed to go down...
Click to expand...

Some tests are pass / fail in life. If the "one bone to pick" was a mandatory fail, it doesn't matter how well you did on anything else.

You've already typed five pages, so the whiny complaint that you'd need 20 pages and that you don't have time is highly suspect. How much time have you spent here whining in writing already?

I suspect you could write it in a few sentences. And I suspect any number of experienced instructors here would say, "Yep. You can be failed for that."
 
I'm just stating the facts here guys. I'm a 43 year old software company executive...I've learned my share of life lessons, thank you very much. I'm not complaining nor am I whining. It is what it is. It all worked itself out.

As for your comment Denver, I'd imagine that those same instructors that said, "Yep you could be failed for that (which by the way if you read anything I wrote - even the FSDO and later on the 2nd time around the DPE even admitted he shouldn't have failed me) would also say that there are opportunities to make a stressful situation for a new pilot a learning one and it doesn't have to cost him another 24 hours of life of hundreds of dollars to do that and leaves behind a positive experience with their first interaction with the FAA. Make it right - there's no shame in that. I didn't complain on the guy and hell I didn't even ask him to make the paperwork right and change the first go around to a discontinuance like he should have in the first place. Like I said, we all make the choice - to be a dick or not to be a dick.

I have a thick skin, I got over it, the DPE and I had a few things in common and we've communicated several times since the checkride. Life goes on.
 
Could the examiner let it slide? Sure. Does he have to? No. Whether or not he should have can be debated to no end. You mention that you are a partner in this plane. Like it or not, I truly believe that examiners hold owners to a higher standard when it comes to maintenance records. And that's probably the way it should be since there is not that extra layer of oversight that renters have. Of course even renters are responsible for knowing the their planes have been inspected and signed off properly.
 
kenjr said:
Once again, you guys have no idea. I don't have time to write up 20 pages of exactly what was said and what happened during my checkride. HE was the one that called the FSDO, not me. Even though the guy failed me and he clearly shouldn't have - I never filed a complaint against him. I don't work like that.

I didn't think he was a bad guy, but at some point you can choose to be a dick or not to be a dick. It's that simple. When you have your POI telling you, it's OK - let the guy get his plane inspected and do the ride and you say no because you already f'd up and said no when you didn't know...that blows.

The DPE is literally apologizing to me profusely as I'm leaving saying stuff like, "You sure are handling this well...". I was in shock. A guy comes in 110% prepared, makes a 94 on his written, aces the oral and you find one tiny bone to pick...I mean come on.

I'm not calling conspiracy - I already said that. However, going back to my original point - DPE's like this wouldn't be booked 5 weeks out if they didn't pull crap like this.

Oh, and this is the same DPE who told me that pilots can't make entires in aircraft logbooks. I had to go digging in the FAR's and show him a couple examples of written exam questions to prove him wrong.

Call me crazy, but I'm pretty sure that's not the way a PPL checkride is supposed to go down...
Click to expand...

Until the DPE comes on here and gives his account of the check ride I'm taking all of this with a grain of salt.

I gave a Part 121 ATP/Type rating checkride. When the ride was over we went to the briefing room, and I always start off with "So tell me how you did?"

The applicant very proudly said "I feel it went well!" and "I'm sure glad we're done!". I asked him if he felt there were any deficiencies on his behalf during the ride and what could he have done better. His response "Overall I think I did 90.....95% with just a few minor glitches."

I pulled out my note pad, 3 pages worth, and it wasn't 3 pages of praise.

To give you an idea of his "ace" checkride he had trouble identifying the correct procedure in the MEL for a deferred item, failed to turn on the engine anti ice after engine start (25 degrees and light snow) missed a taxiway turn, and on takeoff went V2+60 (standard was V2+20). The list goes on and on.

From the folks at the airline I heard how I was "unfair" for busting this guy on his ride. The rumors took off and actually got pretty amusing. One rumor was I busted him for being 2 knots off on takeoff.

See how this goes? :lol:

Good luck with your flying, have a safe but fun time learning and gaining more experience. :thumbsup:
 
NoHeat said:
A different angle on the DPE vs. FAA Inspector question:

Are they insured?

I'm just wondering, if there's a mishap during a private-pilot check ride, does the DPE have insurance coverage? How about the FAA inspector?
Click to expand...

An Inspector is insured by the US government as long as he remains "within the scope of his employment."

As far as the DPE, not sure if they carry private insurance or not.

And for those wondering, yes, the FAA has bought a few airplanes. :nonod:
 
hey, I didn't say my flying was perfect - go back and look up my checkride write up. :) I made my share of mistakes.

It's easier to discern how well you are doing on the oral. The ONLY question he asked me that I didn't have an answer for was something about a weather depiction chart that the dude on the weather channel wouldn't have been able to answer. I literally answered him, "If I had Google open right now I wouldn't even know what to start searching for to answer that question...". He laughed and said, "Yeah, you wouldn't know that...". I know I did well on the oral portion - I was very well prepared. I've taken over 30 technical certification exams in the past 22 years and sat several panels to achieve a few of them. I know how to prepare. The DPE even commented after the 'fail' that he felt bad because it was one of the best PPL orals he'd ever done and even he learned a few things - specifically on the owner assist maintenance/pilot entries in aircraft logbooks.

I don't disagree there's two sides to every story - but I couldn't make this stuff up and have nothing to gain by doing so. I have my PPL and I'm about to start working on my Instrument. Will I use the same DPE again? Honestly I don't know. Like I said, I thought overall the guy was fair. Was he nitpicky about a few things? Of course he was. Did I take every opportunity to learn from those things? Of course I did. What's done is done - we learned our lesson with the plane and the logs. If we ever have an insurance issue, etc... it's nice to know that we have that stuff squared away. Better to deal with it on a checkride I guess.

My main point was where I live it's tough to get a checkride in what I'd consider a reasonable amount of time. A month out in training can be hard for folks to schedule...weather, life, etc... interferes and then you're moving it all over the place. Add in DPE's charging $700 for a PPL ride and the FSDO saying that there's plenty of DPE's...well, it doesn't add up to me. But whatever... I'm not going to argue with you guys...just one man's opinion here...
 
Last edited:
kenjr said:
Oh, and this is the same DPE who told me that pilots can't make entires in aircraft logbooks. I had to go digging in the FAR's and show him a couple examples of written exam questions to prove him wrong.
Click to expand...

I thought I was required to make entries in the aircraft log book in some instances, like when I perform minor maintenance, such as swapping out a battery.
 
kenjr said:
Once again, you guys have no idea.
Click to expand...
Based entirely on what you've written plus what it says in the FAR's and the PTS, here's the idea I have about what happened:

You showed up for the practical test with the aircraft maintenance records. Once the test began, the examiner asked you to show him the records demonstrating the aircraft's legal airworthiness for the flight to be made. You produced them, went through them, and said the aircraft was legal. The examiner saw that the entry for ELT inspection per 91.207(d) had not been made as the regulations require, so the aircraft was not legal to fly. Since you failed to recognize this, the examiner notified you that your performance on Area I, Task B, was unsatisfactory, and issued a Notice of Disapproval on that basis. You then asked the examiner to forgive your failure to identify this discrepancy and restart the test after you had the inspection done/documented properly, and the examiner declined to do so as that would violate FAA Order 8900.2.

Have I got any of that wrong?
 
I think Ron is right. You weren't failed because the airplane didn't have the inspection pers se, you failed because you proved deficient on that area of the PTS. That wouldn't really be fair if he allowed you to have it inspected and corrected right there, because HE told you of the deficiency. Yes, the ELT is normally done every annual but it still needs its own little line on the sticker or in the book "Inspected ELT as per 91.207(d)" is not the same as "Annual inspected completed". Not knowing that your ELT entry was incorrect or missing means you didn't meet that portion of the PTS, and therefor failed.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Until the DPE comes on here and gives his account of the check ride I'm taking all of this with a grain of salt.

I gave a Part 121 ATP/Type rating checkride. When the ride was over we went to the briefing room, and I always start off with "So tell me how you did?"

The applicant very proudly said "I feel it went well!" and "I'm sure glad we're done!". I asked him if he felt there were any deficiencies on his behalf during the ride and what could he have done better. His response "Overall I think I did 90.....95% with just a few minor glitches."

I pulled out my note pad, 3 pages worth, and it wasn't 3 pages of praise.

To give you an idea of his "ace" checkride he had trouble identifying the correct procedure in the MEL for a deferred item, failed to turn on the engine anti ice after engine start (25 degrees and light snow) missed a taxiway turn, and on takeoff went V2+60 (standard was V2+20). The list goes on and on.

From the folks at the airline I heard how I was "unfair" for busting this guy on his ride. The rumors took off and actually got pretty amusing. One rumor was I busted him for being 2 knots off on takeoff.

See how this goes? :lol:

Good luck with your flying, have a safe but fun time learning and gaining more experience. :thumbsup:
Click to expand...

The CFII that did my transition training is a retired FAA inspector. He said that he passed every pp candidate that didn't try to overtly kill him and he still got complaints that he was too strict.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top