Downgrade pilot certificate

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Suppose you were a commercial or ATP certificated pilot and decided that you would not use or need those privileges and were willing to "downgrade" your certificate.

Would you? Why or why not? Do you know anyone who has?

We're not talking here about someone who surrenders it in anticipation of action, but rather one who totally and absolutely voluntarily decides s/he isn't going to need the ATP or commercial anymore and doesn't care to imply to the FAA that they are willing to be judged based on the criteria of those credentials. They want to be looked at as a private pilot (or sport pilot).

§ 61.27 Voluntary surrender or exchange of certificate.

(a) The holder of a certificate issued under this part may voluntarily surrender it for:

(1) Cancellation;

(2) Issuance of a lower grade certificate; or

(3) Another certificate with specific ratings deleted.

(b) Any request made under paragraph (a) of this section must include the following signed statement or its equivalent: “This request is made for my own reasons, with full knowledge that my (insert name of certificate or rating, as appropriate) may not be reissued to me unless I again pass the tests prescribed for its issuance.”
 
Why would you reduce the certifications? Are there any actual real world advantages of doing so? The only thing I can think of is doing it as a way of telling yourself to stay away from planes because you're no longer mentally or physically capable of flying and need to convince yourself to quit once and for all.

IMO: If you have the certification, keep it. There is no rule saying you have to actually use it. If you have an ATP and all you want to do is fly a no radio Cub around the pattern on nice clear sunday afternoons, then don't get a first class medical and don't do job interviews for the airlines or for flying corporate jets around.


Besides, with my luck, I'd turn in the ATP and jet ratings then a week later I'd find out that a friends dad turns out to be stinking filthy rich and needs someone to fly him places in the plane of my choice and would pay me a two million $$ a year for a month worth of work with no pressure.
 
fgcason said:
Why would you reduce the certifications?
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The only reason I can think of is because of the standards one is held to, ie a PP and ATP who make the same error will receive different reprimands because the ATP is held to a higher standard. The PP may just get a talking to and a few hours of remedial, where the ATP will get a 30 day rip.

As for the actual downgrade, I'm not aware of a mechanism to do that. If you let your medical expire, you can fly to the limitations of SP, but I don't think your certificate is downgraded.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yes, that's it.
I've heard of folks doing this, but only for the reasons the FAA mentions, not for the ones Henning suggested.
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The only reason I could see that the FAA mentioned as well was this:

D. Voluntary Certificate Downgrade.

1) When a person elects to voluntarily downgrade his or her pilot certificate to a lower certification level, to avoid submitting to a § 44709 re-examination practical test, the ASI should consider if the person’s desire involves competency and proficiency in the common piloting tasks. For example, if the pilot is required to submit to a § 44709 re-examination practical test because of landing competency and proficiency, then he or she must accomplish that task at all levels of pilot certification. It is a requirement for the pilot to submit to a § 44709 re-examination practical test and the ASI must advise him or her of this. However, the testing standard is at the downgraded level of pilot certification that the person has agreed to.
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How does this disagree with the reasoning I gave? What other reasoning is there to downgrade your certificate?
 
From the cited document, and probably what the OP had in mind. See A 1). The cited document has explanations and examples that clarify the points below.

A. Conditions for Surrender. There are four basic conditions for the surrender of an airman certificate or rating:
1) Voluntary surrender unrelated to an enforcement case;
2) Voluntary surrender in anticipation of FAA certificate action;
3) Voluntary, temporary deposit of an airman’s certificate to the custody of the FSDO when an airman’s competency has been questioned by the FAA and the enforcement action or reexamination is justifiably delayed; and
4) Surrender at Regional Counsel’s request.
 
Henning said:
How does this disagree with the reasoning I gave?
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You cannot get a reduced sanction by downgrading ex post facto. All you can do to avoid sanctions for a violation at that ponit is surrender your ticket completely. Only a 709 ride can be avoided by downgrading, and then only if it involves tasks only required for the higher level, not "competency and proficiency in the common piloting tasks" of both the original and downgraded level.
 
I have a freind who earned his instructor rating and surrendered it the same day he earned it. I don't know if he surrendered his commericial certificate or not, I will have to ask him next time we do his flight review.

He earned it to improve his piloting knowledge and skill. However he surrendered it for liability reasons. He surrendered it so no one would even ask him to provide instruction, since he could not legally provide it.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Ron Levy said:
You cannot get a reduced sanction by downgrading ex post facto. All you can do to avoid sanctions for a violation at that ponit is surrender your ticket completely. Only a 709 ride can be avoided by downgrading, and then only if it involves tasks only required for the higher level, not "competency and proficiency in the common piloting tasks" of both the original and downgraded level.
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Which makes me think the only thing to trade in might be the instrument rating. Nearly every other common cause of accidents or incidents that might trigger a re-examination 709 ride would have elements common to all grades of pilot certificates, and thus require the ride no matter what.
 
Ron Levy said:
You cannot get a reduced sanction by downgrading ex post facto. All you can do to avoid sanctions for a violation at that ponit is surrender your ticket completely. Only a 709 ride can be avoided by downgrading, and then only if it involves tasks only required for the higher level, not "competency and proficiency in the common piloting tasks" of both the original and downgraded level.
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Correct, but I was not referring to an ex post facto situation. I was considering where an ATP has retired or given up and only wants the standards and liabilities of a PP going forward.
 
All he needs to do then, Henning, is maintain a 3rd class. He can't exercise the privileges of the ATP without a 1st, so logically he can't be held to the standards of the privileges he can't exercise.

Yeah, Yeah, I know about logic and Administrative Law.
 
TMetzinger said:
All he needs to do then, Henning, is maintain a 3rd class. He can't exercise the privileges of the ATP without a 1st, so logically he can't be held to the standards of the privileges he can't exercise.
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My pal with an ATP and Third Class was told otherwise by the Regional Counsel when he busted a TFR. If you hold an ATP, you're judged as an ATP, whether you're flying an airliner under 121 or a Cub under 91. The only way to avoid that is to downgrade before you screw up.
 
Henning said:
Correct, but I was not referring to an ex post facto situation. I was considering where an ATP has retired or given up and only wants the standards and liabilities of a PP going forward.
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That's possible, but I've never heard of anyone doing it.
 
In your opinion, was there any indication that the judgement he received as an ATP was different than what he might have received as a pvt pilot? I understand this is conjecture.

Second question, anyone, is there likely to be any difference in insurance rates for a pvt pilot with e.g. 5000 hours vs an ATP with 5000 hours?
 
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Ron Levy said:
My pal with an ATP and Third Class was told otherwise by the Regional Counsel when he busted a TFR. If you hold an ATP, you're judged as an ATP, whether you're flying an airliner under 121 or a Cub under 91. The only way to avoid that is to downgrade before you screw up.
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This makes more sense to me. Your cert is more important than your medical as to what you've proven your capabilities to be. I can get a first class medical as a private, but I can't fly a 121 carrier as one.
 
jnmeade said:
In your opinion, was there any indication that the judgement he received as an ATP was different than what he might have received as a pvt pilot? I understand this is conjecture.
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He told me the RC told him there was, but I didn't see the letter.
Second question, anyone, is there likely to be any difference in insurance rates for a pvt pilot with e.g. 5000 hours vs an ATP with 5000 hours?
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I've been told by insurers that above 500 hours, there's no difference between CP and ATP for corporate operators, but that's as far as I know.
 
TMetzinger said:
Which makes me think the only thing to trade in might be the instrument rating. Nearly every other common cause of accidents or incidents that might trigger a re-examination 709 ride would have elements common to all grades of pilot certificates, and thus require the ride no matter what.
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I could see Commercial if you were given a 709 notice about something with a Pt. 134 1/2 operation. Type ratings could also be unique to the individual rating. A screw up dealing with an OEI issue in a multi could trigger a 709 ride on such procedures that you could avoid by surrendering your ME privileges.
 
JeffDG said:
I could see Commercial if you were given a 709 notice about something with a Pt. 134 1/2 operation.
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It would be quite unusual to be given a 709 ride over a "134-1/2" operation. 709 rides are reserved for issues of competency; regulatory violations get enforcement actions.
Type ratings could also be unique to the individual rating. A screw up dealing with an OEI issue in a multi could trigger a 709 ride on such procedures that you could avoid by surrendering your ME privileges.
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Precisely.
 
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