Donated flight for charity (problem).

[gismo]

A private pilot friend of mine sent me an email detaling a flight he took carrying a passenger who "won" the flight in an auction for a well known charity. Unfortunately his airplane is a (very nice) homebuilt. In addition one of the pictures in the email was clearly taken in flight from a nearby airplane making it a formation flight IMO. I also doubt that he gave the required notice to the FSDO for the flight. There may also be a drug test required which I don't think happened.

Basically he was completly unaware of the FAR's regarding this type of flight and thus several sections of 61.113d were clearly violated. I immediately replied with the bad news and suggested that it would be a really good idea to submit an ASRS form if the event was less than 10 days ago. Unfortunately it was eleven, but he's going to send one in anyway in the hopes that it might indicate some level of contrition on his part.

One thing I was wondering is whether the 10 day clock always starts when the violating flight occurs, or if it begins when the pilot becomes aware that a violation has occurred. If the latter I'd think he has 10 days from when he received my email reply since he was blissfully unaware of any violation before then.

I also suggested he might want to retrieve the emails containing the photographic "evidence" of his inadvertent misdeed, and that this might be a really good time to sign up for AOPA's legal defense program (and talk to an aviation attorney).

I sure would hate to see him penalized for this oversight, given that he's generally a very safety conscious pilot with a strong tendency to obey the rules conservatively.

Any other advice for this pilot?

I'm also wondering what those of you who follow enforcement procedures think the chances are that he will get caught in some sort of enforcement action. There were no other issues with the flight (no deviations, incidents, accidents, etc) and the passenger was quite satisfied with it so no complaints from there are likely.

 

[AdamZ]

Lance:

I recall a discussion on this topic on AOPA's board last year. Then the question was when do you get approval from the FSDO before posting the flight at the auction or after the auction but before the flight. ( consensus was call FSDO and ask them what they want in absence of any other info do it both times)
As for your friend the best advice you gave him was to contact an attorney versed in FAA enforcement issues. He should contact the attorney not ASAP but immediately even before he sends in the NASA form. If he sends in the form after the grace period and thus notifies them of the situation and dosen't get immunity he has effectively shot himself in the foot. If he is a member of AOPAs legal services plane he should call them now if not he should contact AOPA for a list of approved aviation attorneys in his areas NOW! He should try to speak to one today. In dealing with the FAA or any legal situation NEVER ever assume anything it may come back to bit you. Hope it works out ok for your friend.

( note it is probably to late to sign up for AOPA's legal services plan for this incident as it might not be covered. Kinda like buying a warranty the day after your T.V. breaks. He should sign up for the future though.)

 

[BillG]

Getting caught doesn't seem very likely though...

 

[sshekels]

Lance - I _tried_ to do this for our kids school, and called the Minnapolis FSDO about what notification they wanted. The inspector said "he did not care," and as long as it was for a charity all was fine.

I also would caution your friend about making too much of a big deal about this. If he asks for the pictures back, it might freak out the winner and raise more issues...

Talk to a lawyer and lie low...

S.

 

[poadeleted20]

A private pilot friend of mine sent me an email detaling a flight he took carrying a passenger who "won" the flight in an auction for a well known charity. Unfortunately his airplane is a (very nice) homebuilt. In addition one of the pictures in the email was clearly taken in flight from a nearby airplane making it a formation flight IMO. I also doubt that he gave the required notice to the FSDO for the flight. There may also be a drug test required which I don't think happened.

Yes, there is a drug test required, although AOPA members have an exemption from that. And formation flights are prohibited with paying passengers, even under Part 91 sightseeing flights -- see 91.111(c).

Basically he was completly unaware of the FAR's regarding this type of flight and thus several sections of 61.113d were clearly violated. I immediately replied with the bad news and suggested that it would be a really good idea to submit an ASRS form if the event was less than 10 days ago. Unfortunately it was eleven, but he's going to send one in anyway in the hopes that it might indicate some level of contrition on his part.

Sigh. Unfortunately, if not filed in 10 days, it provides no immunity from sanction. Futher, even though he was unaware of the rules, he is still legally responsible for knowing them. Since he intentionally did all these things (as opposed to an accidental altitude bust), this might be called a "deliberate violation," in which case the ASRS could be used against him. I recommend at this point that he consult an aviation attorney BEFORE he sends in an ASRS report.

One thing I was wondering is whether the 10 day clock always starts when the violating flight occurs, or if it begins when the pilot becomes aware that a violation has occurred.

10 days from the incident, and he's past that.

I also suggested he might want to retrieve the emails containing the photographic "evidence" of his inadvertent misdeed,

He can try, but that's like trying to stuff the toothpaste back in the tube. The unfortunate problem is that anyone who now abets this pilot in the destruction of the evidence of what happened could be committing a criminal act, and anyone who knows about it can be compelled to testify against him in an FAA proceeding.

and that this might be a really good time to sign up for AOPA's legal defense program (and talk to an aviation attorney).

I agree with the sentiment, but I don't think the plan covers acts prior to signing up -- check with them on that to be sure. However, he really does need to shut up about it and talk to an aviation attorney (and ONLY his attorney).

I sure would hate to see him penalized for this oversight, given that he's generally a very safety conscious pilot with a strong tendency to obey the rules conservatively.

At this point, what this pilot needs to do is contact an attorney, and otherwise shut up, sit tight, and hope nobody notices. If the FAA doesn't do anything within 6 months, he should be in the clear.

I'm also wondering what those of you who follow enforcement procedures think the chances are that he will get caught in some sort of enforcement action. There were no other issues with the flight (no deviations, incidents, accidents, etc) and the passenger was quite satisfied with it so no complaints from there are likely.

Unless someone complains, or he wrote something incriminating in his log, or he tries to take a tax deduction and gets audited, it is highly unlikely the FAA will notice.

 

[poadeleted20]

Lance - I _tried_ to do this for our kids school, and called the Minnapolis FSDO about what notification they wanted. The inspector said "he did not care," and as long as it was for a charity all was fine.

No matter what they say on the phone, make absolutely sure you send the required letter, and that you get the right paper from the charity to prove their IRS-approved charitable status. It's way too easy for another inspector to make the bust, and the first inspector to say, "Hey, I never told him that -- that wouldn't be legal." Note that you only need NOTIFY the FSDO, not get their approval, but the notification must be in writing with certain necessary attachments. Read 61.113(d) CAREFULLY before you get involved in one of these.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

If the FAA doesn't do anything within 6 months, he should be in the clear.

1. The advice to see an attorney is good because,
2. I believe the 6-month clock starts when the FAA learns of the infraction. Since the FAA really has no way to know of this infraction that clock has not yet begun to tick.

 

[gismo]

1. The advice to see an attorney is good because,
2. I believe the 6-month clock starts when the FAA learns of the infraction. Since the FAA really has no way to know of this infraction that clock has not yet begun to tick.

Well, that's fair (not), the enforcement clock starts when the enforcer happens to learn of the violation, but the ASRS immunity clock starts when it happens even if the pilot is unaware that it happened?

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Well, that's fair (not), the enforcement clock starts when the enforcer happens to learn of the violation, but the ASRS immunity clock starts when it happens even if the pilot is unaware that it happened?

IIRC, it is rather reciprocal. I'm working from addled memory here, so please forgive any errors, but...the FAA is considered to know of the event when the flight occurred if the FAA was involved in the flight (i.e., ATC controller tells you that you are off altitude) even if the enforcement side of ATC never heard of the event at that time, and, if my memory is correct, even if the FAA person(s) involved never realized that there was an infraction at all. OTOH, pilots have been nailed for events that happened years ago when an FAA inspector happened to leaf through the pilot's logbook for a much later and unrelated event (i.e. an initial CFI ride). The pilot knew (or should have known) but the FAA had no way to know until the inspector looked at the logbook. In that case the pilot's clock started years ago, but the FAA clock starts at the logbook inspection. Same with the pilot in this thread. The pilot knew the flight occurred but the FAA does not (yet). The pilot's clock started ticking when the flight occurred. The FAA's clock starts ticking when they learn of the flight.

 

[wsuffa]

OTOH, pilots have been nailed for events that happened years ago when an FAA inspector happened to leaf through the pilot's logbook for a much later and unrelated event (i.e. an initial CFI ride). The pilot knew (or should have known) but the FAA had no way to know until the inspector looked at the logbook. In that case the pilot's clock started years ago, but the FAA clock starts at the logbook inspection. Same with the pilot in this thread. The pilot knew the flight occurred but the FAA does not (yet). The pilot's clock started ticking when the flight occurred. The FAA's clock starts ticking when they learn of the flight.

Which illustrates why we should put as little additional information into our logbooks as we need to.

 

[sshekels]

No matter what they say on the phone, make absolutely sure you send the required letter, and that you get the right paper from the charity to prove their IRS-approved charitable status.

Wow, thats scary, but I guess not surprising. So if I send something in, how do I PROVE it without something back? Certified Return Receipt?

Its WAY too easy to bust.

S.

 

[Len Lanetti]

Wow, thats scary, but I guess not surprising. So if I send something in, how do I PROVE it without something back? Certified Return Receipt?

I faxed the copies of pages from my log book and the letters. I used a machine that stamps the sent documents with transmit information. I also made notes during my phone conversations with the inspector and kept them with the fax'd material.

Len