Doing biz with China

Ken Ibold

Final Approach
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Ken Ibold
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As a sideline, I have launched a consumer products company and we will be sourcing some of the pieces of our assembly from Chinese manufacturers. Never having dealt with overseas manufacturers, I'm curious about the best way to handle paying for the items so as to not get screwed. Anyone have any direct experience in this? Also, the intellectual property aspect is important to us, which is why we're using different sources for different elements and doing final assembly locally. Any hints on further protecting ourselves when doing business with people who largely ignore trademarks and patents?
 
Honestly, don't do business with them. They reverse engineer everything!
 
As a sideline, I have launched a consumer products company and we will be sourcing some of the pieces of our assembly from Chinese manufacturers. Never having dealt with overseas manufacturers, I'm curious about the best way to handle paying for the items so as to not get screwed. Anyone have any direct experience in this? Also, the intellectual property aspect is important to us, which is why we're using different sources for different elements and doing final assembly locally. Any hints on further protecting ourselves when doing business with people who largely ignore trademarks and patents?
Yes I have lots of experience with these items.

The first basic rule in dealing with China is that 'yes' means "I hear you" NOT "I agree with you. If you get a yes answer follow it up with making sure they say the words that you want them to agree with. This is a cultural thing with China and other Asian countries.

Do not pay accept once you get delivery, and please, for goodness sake, get them a detailed specification that you will base your acceptance on. Ensure that your contract specifies that payment is based upon meeting the specification and calls out penalties for not meeting spec, delivery times, etc.

IPR....Ahhhh. Well whats theirs is theirs and what's yours is theirs. ;)

IS your IPR also filled in China? If not then there is little legal standing that you have to get them to recognize your IPR. to get it protected that means some additional $$$ to do the correct filings. Even THEN things may slip out. IPR carries little weight with the average Chinese person, so you had best have a very clear contract when dealing with them on how to handle it.

I could tell you horror stories about IPR but I dare not make them public. Lets suffice it to say that we learned to keep our IPR very protected and have a large army of lawyers. Even then we have had serious issues in China that have cost us millions to prosecute.
 
IS your IPR also filled in China? If not then there is little legal standing that you have to get them to recognize your IPR. to get it protected that means some additional $$$ to do the correct filings. Even THEN things may slip out. IPR carries little weight with the average Chinese person, so you had best have a very clear contract when dealing with them on how to handle it.
Thanks. One of our strategies is to source part A from one company, part B from another, part c from a third, etc. Eventually someone may put it all together when/if the product is a success. We may also source a couple of the components from Costa Rica or something.
 
Learn your INCOTERMS, find a bank or agent who can help make the process smooth. Anyone who has done export-based manufacturing before (in China) will be familiar with the process.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Thanks. One of our strategies is to source part A from one company, part B from another, part c from a third, etc. Eventually someone may put it all together when/if the product is a success. We may also source a couple of the components from Costa Rica or something.

They'll buy one retail and all of your secrecy is blown.
 
Two of my three items of advice have been fufullied they are:

1) Speak with Scott Migaldi
2) Speak with Andrew Stanely
3) Tell them no MSG in the Mu shu!
 
Learn your INCOTERMS, find a bank or agent who can help make the process smooth. Anyone who has done export-based manufacturing before (in China) will be familiar with the process.

Cheers,

-Andrew

Somewhere around here, I have a copy of Wachovia's excellent overview of finance, payment, and credit in the import export world. I'll see if I can dig it up this weekend.

ACE has a guide here: http://www.ace-ina-canada.com/pdf/marine/incoterm.pdf

Wachovia's website is here: https://www.wachovia.com/foundation/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=fb803091c70aa110VgnVCM1000004b0d1872RCRD

Cheers,

-Andrew

EDIT: my previous posts may have been needlessly obscure. INCOTERMS are the lingua franca of international shippin, payment, and customs. They range from absolute importer/buyer risk, to absolute exporter/seller risk. (From EXW to DDP). EXW is Ex-Works, meaning it is your (buyer) responsibility from the factory loading dock, through export, shipping, import, customs, duty, delivery. Most important to note, is that responsibility means you pay for it - they put it n their loading dock, and you are compelled to pay. On the other extreme is Delivered, Duty Paid (DDP). Now, the seller is responsible all the way until your loading dock, including the customs process. Given how heavily credit flows in this world (rather than Ken Ibold Industries paying on terms, Ken's bank/agent does it for him through letters of credit), the process can be deceptively simple. Given that you are a new company, if you have no connections (soft business relationship), plan to have a serious increase to your price if you do business DDP. There are 10 (IIRC) other terms between EXW and DDP, all that have varying degrees of buyer and seller risk. A bank with a strong import/export credit business (Wachovia did) can really help you get through this process.
 
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I have an electronics manufactuing business (30+ years) and for the last 10 years have been getting some subassemblies made in China, Taiwan, Hong Kong.

The things I would watch for are:

Make sure the company communicates well in English. Many don't or they are so poor that one doesn't get anywhere. But to be honest, many Western firms cannot read or write either!

Make sure they talk straight, but see next point.

Be very courteous. In the West, if a vendor delivers a pile of junk, you can just email him and say something like "this is a pile of junk" or if you are polite you will say "the quality of the product is not acceptable". But if you talk this way to a Chinese man, he will take it as a personal insult and will never ever ever ever talk to you again, and the relationship with the company may be over. So one has to be less direct than with Western vendors.

The quality is whatever you want and want to pay for. The reason we see mostly junk come out of there is because most Western firms use the Far East to make the junk end of their product range, and make the better stuff locally to preserve local expertise, technology, vendor relationships, etc. The Chinese etc can make good stuff too.

Many firms out there don't make anything but resell stuff from down the road. This is a big problem; only a visit can make sure. If you get one of these, repeatability is an issue.

Getting stuff OUT of there is obviously easy but if you want to send stuff INTO say China (say some parts to do extra work on) this can get complicated. They have large scale corruption in their Customs, where an incoming package might cost $500 or whatever to get through. Hong Kong is OK in this case, IIRC, as is Taiwan, but China can be a hassle.

The bigger Western firms all second an employee out there, to smooth things, kick ass (very carefully) where necessary, etc. Not a bad job for a single man ;)

Payment terms are normally 100% US$ in advance.

The only problem I have had, with ~ 3 firms out there, has been communication. Very recently, I asked them to label individual cartons (packed 90 per larger carton) and they did the right labels but stuck them on the larger carton, leaving the 90 inside unlabelled :)

The value for money and quality control which one can get out there is stunning and there is no point in going for the cheapest crap like nearly everybody else in the West does.

I send out populated and sample-tested PCBs out there, in 10k batches, and they package them in locally injection-moulded cases, 100% test them (using test equipment which I built and which we sent out there), package them, and return them by sea or air freight. The two kinds of freight are often similar cost.
 
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