Does this count

[Chris Connor]

First some stipulations.
A friend is working on his Helicopter IR.
He has the ability to get stick time free, however there are geographic limits to where he can fly. Now remember that for the helo it only has to be 25nm to be cross country. So:
Part 1
If he takes offf from airport A and flies north 8nm and lands at airport B. Logs the time as PIC (not Cross Country) then starts a new flight that goes 26 nm South and makes a landing. It is only about 18nm from airport A, but a new flight was originated at airport B. Does this count?

Part 2
After making the landing 26nm away from airport B then takes off and flies around within his geographic boundries for the next 2 hours. Can he log all of that time (except the time from airport A to airport B ) as cross country?

Chris

 

[Ed Guthrie]

First some stipulations.
A friend is working on his Helicopter IR.
He has the ability to get stick time free, however there are geographic limits to where he can fly. Now remember that for the helo it only has to be 25nm to be cross country. So:
Part 1
If he takes offf from airport A and flies north 8nm and lands at airport B. Logs the time as PIC (not Cross Country) then starts a new flight that goes 26 nm South and makes a landing. It is only about 18nm from airport A, but a new flight was originated at airport B. Does this count?

Part 2
After making the landing 26nm away from airport B then takes off and flies around within his geographic boundries for the next 2 hours. Can he log all of that time (except the time from airport A to airport B ) as cross country?

Chris

You have walked into a gray zone that is undefined. What constitutes a flight? Where did it start and end?

Frankly, I'd have no problem logging what you describe but I can tell you that you will find strong opinions both ways, both inside and outside the FAA. If you want a definitive answer you'll need to request one from your local FAA Regional Counsel or the FAA Chief Counsel.

 

[Chris Connor]

You have walked into a gray zone that is undefined. What constitutes a flight? Where did it start and end?

Frankly, I'd have no problem logging what you describe but I can tell you that you will find strong opinions both ways, both inside and outside the FAA. If you want a definitive answer you'll need to request one from your local FAA Regional Counsel or the FAA Chief Counsel.

Ed,
Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate you taking the time. I really don't have a horse in this race as this truly is for a friend. I would like others to weigh in as well. I like you answer and I agree it is a gray area. My buddy isn't looking forward to spending upwards of $10,000 just to get the necessary cross country time to get the IR.
Chris

 

[poadeleted20]

The regulation says, "Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure." The FAA's Flight Standards folks have said the "original point of departure" does not change during a flight. However, once you do have that landing "more than 25 nm from the original point of departure," the rest of the flight is all XC time, even if all you do is hover around the practice area 5 miles from the home 'drome.

BTW, be careful about how your friend, as a Private Pilot, acquires this "free stick time." The FAA considers free logged flight time which can be used towards higher certificates to be "compensation." If your friend is providing some sort of service in return for this flight time (even, say, ferrying the helo for maintenance), he needs a Commercial Pilot or ATP Certificate.

 

[Chris Connor]

The regulation says, "Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure." The FAA's Flight Standards folks have said the "original point of departure" does not change during a flight. However, once you do have that landing "more than 25 nm from the original point of departure," the rest of the flight is all XC time, even if all you do is hover around the practice area 5 miles from the home 'drome.

BTW, be careful about how your friend, as a Private Pilot, acquires this "free stick time." The FAA considers free logged flight time which can be used towards higher certificates to be "compensation." If your friend is providing some sort of service in return for this flight time (even, say, ferrying the helo for maintenance), he needs a Commercial Pilot or ATP Certificate.

Thanks Ron for your opinion. There is nothing to worry about wrt the free stick time. My buddy has his commercial, but he is flying Public Use Aircraft on Public Use Missions. Thus the geographic limitations. Just to change the scenario a little based on your response. What if another pilot flys from airport A to airport B then my buddy flies from airport B to the landing site? Jut trying to save my buddy some big bucks.
Chris

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Thanks Ron for your opinion. There is nothingto worry about wrt the free stick time. My buddy has his commercial, but he is flying Public Use Aircraft on Public Use Missions. Thus the geographic limitations. Just to change the scenario a little based on your response. What if another pilot flys from airport A to airport B then my buddy flies from airport B to the landing site? Jut trying to save my buddy some big bucks.
Chris

That one is well outside the gray zone--perfectly good logging.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

The FAA's Flight Standards folks have said the "original point of departure" does not change during a flight. However, once you do have that landing "more than 25 nm from the original point of departure," the rest of the flight is all XC time, even if all you do is hover around the practice area 5 miles from the home 'drome.

Where did Flight Standards make that statement? The FAQ file the FAA recently revoked. Ron, bring up a legitimate, relevent reference or leave it out of the debate--or atleast have the decency to note the reference's questionable status.

 

[EdFred]

Hmmm, what about not logging the flight from A to B ?

 

[poadeleted20]

Where did Flight Standards make that statement? The FAQ file the FAA recently revoked. Ron, bring up a legitimate, relevent reference or leave it out of the debate--or atleast have the decency to note the reference's questionable status.

As far as I can tell, the only person on the planet who thinks the FAQ file is "questionable" is you. The Chief of the Flight Standards Service's exact, written, signed words (and I have a .pdf copy of the memo with his signature) on this subject are:

Only the FAA's Office of the Chief Counsel and Regional Chief Counsel provide legal interpretations. However, it is important that [Flight Standards Service] personnel be aware of these web sites. I want it understood that the answers and information provided on these web sites are official Flight Standards policy about Part 61, Part 141, and Part 142.

/s/ James J. Ballough
Director, Flight Standards Service, AFS-1

 

[Ed Guthrie]

As far as I can tell, the only person on the planet who thinks the FAQ file is "questionable" is you.

As near as I can tell, you're the only person on the planet who hasn't noticed that the FAA removed the FAQ file. IOW, it no longer exists--including that notification you keep using to shore up your indefensible posturing. The simple fact that it (the FAQ file) is gone would make any document's current validity/status questionable.

 

[poadeleted20]

As near as I can tell, you're the only person on the planet who hasn't noticed that the FAA removed the FAQ file. IOW, it no longer exists--including that notification you keep using to shore up your indefensible posturing. The simple fact that it (the FAQ file) is gone would make any document's current validity/status questionable.

If you read the announcement on the web site or talked with people in AFS-800 (as I did last week), you'd know that the FAQ file isn't "gone," just in the process of having its public access portal moved. The folks inside AFS-800 tell me nothing in the file is "invalidated" as policy guidance, just that it's being moved to another part of the FAA web site. Note that AFS-800 is not happy that the file was removed from its previous location before the material was posted in the big FAA FAQ file, but it is not invalidated. Of course, it's only binding as policy on AFS personnel, and neither you nor I fall in that category, but it's worth knowing what it says there as AFS personnel are still supposed to be operating per its guidance.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

If you read the announcement on the web site or talked with people in AFS-800 (as I did last week), you'd know that the FAQ file isn't "gone," just in the process of having its public access portal moved.

Here's the announcement on the website (emphasis added):

We have removed the 14CFR part 61 and 141 Frequently Asked Questions from the website. To ensure you get an answer that addresses your specific part 61 and 141 questions, please submit your questions through our FAQ system at:

http://faa.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/faa.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php?CFID=15194522&CFTOKEN=72128469


As to talking to people within AFS-800, I could believe that your buddy John Lynch thinks it will return, but until it does, for the rest of us the FAQ file's official status is "removed"--which leaves its status decidedly questionable.

BTW, if you submit a verbatim request of a FAQ file question to the link above you don't get a verbatim spit of the FAQ file answer.

Ever bother to wonder why not?

Your buddy John Lynch is forbidden to offer up the FAQ file answers to FAQ file questions.

Ever bother to wonder why?

According to you, the FAQ file is published Flight Standards' internal standardized policy. Why would a Flight Standards employee be forbidden to quote Flight Standards' internal standardized policy?

Personally, the above FAQ file realities further enforce the rational conclusion that the FAQ file's status is questionable.

 

[poadeleted20]

Your buddy John Lynch is forbidden to offer up the FAQ file answers to FAQ file questions.

I haven't talked to Lynch lately, but I did talk to his boss (the new AFS-800) and the guy who sits across from him last week. Lynch is still in business handling questions inside FAA channels. What's the source of your statement?

 

[Richard]

WRT the FAQ file, what is this all about? I mean, there are other avenues for legal interpretations. Please educate me.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

I haven't talked to Lynch lately, but I did talk to his boss (the new AFS-800) and the guy who sits across from him last week. Lynch is still in business handling questions inside FAA channels. What's the source of your statement?

John Lynch, via email, addressed to you:

> From: john.d.lynch@faa.gov [mailto:john.d.lynch@faa.gov]
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 1:25 PM
>
> I am sorry to have to inform you that I have been instructed not to answer
> anymore FAQs as per instructions from my Flight Standards Service
> management. It is my hope someday that that decision will be reversed, but
> for now I am instructed to send out this message:
>
> FAA Flight Standards Service management has decided to withdraw the Part 61
> and Part 141 Frequently Asked Questions website.
>
> You may have noticed that the websites where the Part 61 and Part 141 FAQs
> were located have now been replaced with this Note:
>
> We have removed the 14 CFR parts 61 and 141 Frequently Asked Questions from
> the website. To ensure you get an answer that addresses your specific part
> 61 and 141 questions, please submit your questions through our FAQ system
> at:
>
> http://faa.custhelp.com/cgi-
> bin/faa.cfg/php/enduser/std_alp.php?CFID=15194522&CFTOKEN=72128469
>
> You will notice that the initial response from the FAA’s Frequently Asked
> Questions system will generate 5 possible responses that relate to your
> question. If the answer provided does not specifically answer your
> question, then you may submit your question directly to the website above.
> As the FAA provides answers to questions about Part 61 and Part 141 of the
> FARs, the answers will be placed in FAQ database system.
>
> If you are an FAA employee who needs clarification about a rule or policy
> issue, you should attempt to resolve the matter with your immediate manager
> and then follow your chain-of-command through the FSDO and Regional Office.
> If your Regional Office believes that the matter needs to be resolved here
> in AFS-800, they may send the question here.
>
> The only official FAA FAQ website will now be at: http://faa.custhelp.com
>
>
> John D. Lynch
> AFS-810 (202) 267-3844

 

[Ed Guthrie]

WRT the FAQ file, what is this all about? I mean, there are other avenues for legal interpretations. Please educate me.

Doesn't sound as if you need any education at all, except a possible slight note that FAQ file was never a source for legal interpretations (there was a disclaimer to that effect right at the top of the file). IOW, there are avenues for legal interpretations versus "other avenues".

 

[poadeleted20]

> If you are an FAA employee who needs clarification about a rule or policy
> issue, you should attempt to resolve the matter with your immediate manager
> and then follow your chain-of-command through the FSDO and Regional Office.
> If your Regional Office believes that the matter needs to be resolved here
> in AFS-800, they may send the question here.

Like I said -- FAA personnel are still sending the questions to John, but doing so via internal chain, not directly.

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Like I said -- FAA personnel are still sending the questions to John, but doing so via internal chain, not directly.

1. FAA personnel (actually, flight standards division) might be asking John Lynch, but within that route John's answers will ultimately receive FAA legal reveiw before flight standards may pursue a legal action against a pilot--IOW, what John might advise is but a starting point.

2. FAA personnel asking John for his internal opinion is wildly different versus John being authorized to speak for the FAA to external folks asking for FAR clarification--John's internal musings will receive FAA legal department review of those musings before they ever approach the greater outside world as true FAR legal interpretations.

I stated that John's writings were no longer authorized for external dissemination, and therefore questionable in terms of external authority. If you doubt that, a simple request to John, in writing, that he send you a copy of the purged FAQ file for your reading and educational purposes should clear up the status rather abruptly.

On another webboard, I believe it was Mark Kobler who noted a correlation between a recently dropped/lost FAA legal case and the timing of the FAQ file's disappearance. Seems the FAA went after a CFI for an infraction of the FARs and the CFI used an incorrect FAQ file Q&A as his/her defense (IOW, the CFI used the FAQ file to guide his/her behavior, but, unfortunately, the FAQ file was coaching illegal activities). The legal case was dropped, but I'm sure the FAA legal folks were royally torqued at John's transgression. Truth or folklore? Coincidence or causitive factor? Who knows. What I do know is that the FAA moves things around their website a whole lot quicker than the FAQ files absence period has been. IOW, if the FAA still supported the FAQ files then the FAQ files would have reappeared long ago, and John Lynch wouldn't have the short leash he currently wears regarding offering FAQ material and FAQ service.

Might just be my imagination, but I smell a turf battle...

 

[Richard]

Doesn't sound as if you need any education at all, except a possible slight note that FAQ file was never a source for legal interpretations (there was a disclaimer to that effect right at the top of the file). IOW, there are avenues for legal interpretations versus "other avenues".

Thanks, Ed. Yeah, I worded that wrong. But if that's the case, what's the nit? It seems like you guys are picking fly **** out of pepper. What am I missing?

 

[Ed Guthrie]

Thanks, Ed. Yeah, I worded that wrong. But if that's the case, what's the nit? It seems like you guys are picking fly **** out of pepper. What am I missing?

Well, for openers, the starting questions were:

First some stipulations.
A friend is working on his Helicopter IR.
He has the ability to get stick time free, however there are geographic limits to where he can fly. Now remember that for the helo it only has to be 25nm to be cross country. So:
Part 1
If he takes offf from airport A and flies north 8nm and lands at airport B. Logs the time as PIC (not Cross Country) then starts a new flight that goes 26 nm South and makes a landing. It is only about 18nm from airport A, but a new flight was originated at airport B. Does this count?

Part 2
After making the landing 26nm away from airport B then takes off and flies around within his geographic boundries for the next 2 hours. Can he log all of that time (except the time from airport A to airport B ) as cross country?

Looks like legal questions, yes?

In answering such legal questions, would you suggest someone rely on a document that begins with a disclaimer to the effect that the document should not be used for legal interpretation when the question is a legal question? Would you suggest someone rely on a document after the publisher removed it?

 

[Richard]

Well, for openers, the starting questions were:



Looks like legal questions, yes?

In answering such legal questions, would you suggest someone rely on a document that begins with a disclaimer to the effect that the document should not be used for legal interpretation when the question is a legal question? Would you suggest someone rely on a document after the publisher removed it?

'With you'.