Does Not Get It

[iamtheari]

Thanks for the corrections. My understanding was that at a non-towered airport, you'd call for clearance on the phone and get a window to depart in. Help me out: how does it work if you have to depart directly into IMC from a non-towered field? Can't bomb around VFR in those conditions waiting for a clearance.

If you want to be IFR when you leave the ground, you call (radio to an appropriate ATC facility from ground if able, or dial 888-766-8267 on your phone if not) and get a clearance with a void time. You take off during your window and call the appropriate ATC facility when you are able, which will vary depending on your location, terrain, and weather conditions. This works all the way down to a 0/0 takeoff from a non-towered field. And you are under IFR as long as you take off within your window, even before you make radio contact with ATC in the air. (So do not call up and say "picking up our IFR clearance" because you are already flying the clearance that you picked up from the ground.)

If you can fly VFR from takeoff until reaching ATC and getting a clearance in the air, then you can do that. But you can't blast off into IMC in controlled airspace if you are VFR. KSQL's Chart Supplement (A/FD) entry currently says it's class D 1500-0500Z, other times class G. From a practical and suicide-avoidance standpoint, it doesn't make a difference if it's class G or class E - if you are taking off into IMC, call and get a clearance before takeoff.

But this report doesn't seem to say much about IMC, so he was actually relying on filing IFR to take care of his navigation for him. If you take off VFR, have a plan to complete the flight or safely abort it under VFR. And he is working on his commercial certificate. That's mostly a VFR certificate, honing how you fly the airplane. The certificate is pretty restricted without an instrument rating, but the intent is to be a better pilot, not a better magenta line follower. We can only hope that this pilot learned how to navigate VFR before getting his commercial certificate. Anyone who is capable of saying what is in the report posted above should be forced to fly the next 100 hours in a plane without an attitude indicator, electrical system, or any form of GPS, plus another 10 hours for every time he tries to use the radio to ask for help navigating. Otherwise, he or she will just keep using ATC, GPS, and who knows what other equipment as crutches to keep from learning anything.

 

[arnoha]

If you want to be IFR when you leave the ground, you call (radio to an appropriate ATC facility from ground if able, or dial 888-766-8267 on your phone if not) and get a clearance with a void time. You take off during your window and call the appropriate ATC facility when you are able, which will vary depending on your location, terrain, and weather conditions. This works all the way down to a 0/0 takeoff from a non-towered field. And you are under IFR as long as you take off within your window, even before you make radio contact with ATC in the air. (So do not call up and say "picking up our IFR clearance" because you are already flying the clearance that you picked up from the ground.)

If you can fly VFR from takeoff until reaching ATC and getting a clearance in the air, then you can do that. But you can't blast off into IMC in controlled airspace if you are VFR. KSQL's Chart Supplement (A/FD) entry currently says it's class D 1500-0500Z, other times class G. From a practical and suicide-avoidance standpoint, it doesn't make a difference if it's class G or class E - if you are taking off into IMC, call and get a clearance before takeoff.

But this report doesn't seem to say much about IMC, so he was actually relying on filing IFR to take care of his navigation for him. If you take off VFR, have a plan to complete the flight or safely abort it under VFR. And he is working on his commercial certificate. That's mostly a VFR certificate, honing how you fly the airplane. The certificate is pretty restricted without an instrument rating, but the intent is to be a better pilot, not a better magenta line follower. We can only hope that this pilot learned how to navigate VFR before getting his commercial certificate. Anyone who is capable of saying what is in the report posted above should be forced to fly the next 100 hours in a plane without an attitude indicator, electrical system, or any form of GPS, plus another 10 hours for every time he tries to use the radio to ask for help navigating. Otherwise, he or she will just keep using ATC, GPS, and who knows what other equipment as crutches to keep from learning anything.

Yep, this was my understanding: if you depart after a release and before a void time, you're IFR from the get go, talking or not. I'm trying to square that with what @MAKG1 said. Say what you will, but he's not often wrong. I have a hunch that you're both right and there's a subtlety that I'm missing.

 

[mscard88]

Yep, this was my understanding: if you depart after a release and before a void time, you're IFR from the get go, talking or not. I'm trying to square that with what @MAKG1 said. Say what you will, but he's not often wrong. I have a hunch that you're both right and there's a subtlety that I'm missing.

Once you obtain your release, ATC "reserves" the airspace for you. So yes, you are on an IFR clearance, and considered IFR. My example above about how it was done at GTR is correct and an example, as I was a controller at Columbus approach in addition to a CFI at GTR. Even if you get your clearance and release by phone, as long as you're airborne by the void time, you're good.

 

[iamtheari]

A couple of these are not correct. You can sometimes get IFR clearances from Approach on the ground. That's how it's done at Watsonville, for instance. Generally, you try the frequency in the chart supplement. If there is a phone number, the radio probably doesn't work, and that's fairly common around the bay due to terrain. At a nontowered airport, all clearances start in the air, unless there is a SID to assign (there isn't at SQL -- instead, there is an optional procedure that takes off on 12 and blasts into Class B, terminating at SJC VOR). And Approach does know about your IFR flight plan. BUT, an airborne clearance can take a while, and you must be prepared to fly VFR until you have it.

Yep, this was my understanding: if you depart after a release and before a void time, you're IFR from the get go, talking or not. I'm trying to square that with what @MAKG1 said. Say what you will, but he's not often wrong. I have a hunch that you're both right and there's a subtlety that I'm missing.

Not often wrong, but sometimes. I don't think that the part I emphasized above is accurate. Maybe he'll weigh in and clarify it for us.

 

[dmspilot]

At a nontowered airport, all clearances start in the air

False.

 

[MAKG1]

Thanks for the corrections. My understanding was that at a non-towered airport, you'd call for clearance on the phone and get a window to depart in. Help me out: how does it work if you have to depart directly into IMC from a non-towered field? Can't bomb around VFR in those conditions waiting for a clearance.

If you do it by phone, you'll get a void (expiration) time, and a start of your route with altitude, usually at a nearby navaid, as part of your clearance. Unless you are assigned a SID in your clearance (and there aren't any at SQL), it's up to you how you get there. There are recommended departure procedures in some cases; you aren't required to use these, but it's a good idea. SQL has one -- depart 12, fly heading 120, intercept SJC 281 radial, and proceed to SJC. Climb minimum is standard -- 200 ft per nm. When the tower is open, you get more detailed departure instructions, and usually vectors on to some part of your route (usually not the beginning).

You are not VFR during this procedure if you already have your clearance and your void time has not expired. You can go through clouds, and can enter Class B. In the absence of a departure procedure and the presence of terrain, this may not be a very good idea.

There is one exception at SQL. The takeoff minimums explicitly says 30 is not authorized. So, unless you get contrary instructions from tower, you MUST take off on 12 or just wait.

 

[MAKG1]

False.

Yes, I misspoke. All ROUTES start in the air in that case, unless a SID is available. But the clearance is good on the ground. Vectors may be available once radio contact is available. At SQL, it is pretty quickly, unless you're in a lost comms situation (then, proceed to the start of your route if in IMC, etc.).

 

[NealRomeoGolf]

I'm not instrument rated, but curious what your first call up is after getting a release by phone. Approach, Skyhawk 123 just off SQL 1000 for 3000, IFR?

 

[dmspilot]

All ROUTES start in the air in [the case of nontowered airports], unless a SID is available.

What about airports in Class E airspace?

 

[iamtheari]

I'm not instrument rated, but curious what your first call up is after getting a release by phone. Approach, Skyhawk 123 just off SQL 1000 for 3000, IFR?

Basically, yes. You won't have to say IFR, though, as you will have been given a squawk code in your clearance and should be squawking it already, so they will know who you are and what you're doing. You basically talk the same as you would if you were departing a towered field, except without the part where tower hands you off to approach/departure or the en route controller after takeoff. And you will hear the same thing back, which should be "radar contact" and possibly a higher altitude or anything else you might get when beginning an IFR flight.

 

[MAKG1]

What about airports in Class E airspace?

I've yet to encounter one without a SID. Got any examples?

 

[dmspilot]

I've yet to encounter one without a SID. Got any examples?

York, PA (THV) has one ODP for one runway but no SID as far as I can tell.

 

[mtuomi]

Yes, I misspoke. All ROUTES start in the air in that case, unless a SID is available. But the clearance is good on the ground. Vectors may be available once radio contact is available. At SQL, it is pretty quickly, unless you're in a lost comms situation (then, proceed to the start of your route if in IMC, etc.).

Clearance starts on the ground when you've been released, if you're not airborne/in contact with ATC before void+30, you are considered overdue and S&R is initiated.
If in class E with no SID, the clearance should include "enter controlled airspace via xxx".

 

[dmspilot]

If in class E with no SID, the clearance should include "enter controlled airspace via xxx".

Class E is controlled airspace. You entered it before you took off.

 

[arnoha]

Yes, I misspoke. All ROUTES start in the air in that case, unless a SID is available. But the clearance is good on the ground. Vectors may be available once radio contact is available. At SQL, it is pretty quickly, unless you're in a lost comms situation (then, proceed to the start of your route if in IMC, etc.).

OK, that now makes sense and lines up with how I understood the subject. But with more nuance now.

Adds an interesting wrinkle, too. Another possible mistake: he departed 30, which means that he would have screwed up had he actually had an IFR clearance. But he didn't, so it didn't matter.

 

[BigBadLou]

It is scary how many people have licenses that should not.

Well, the FAA tries to prevent such people from having licenses.
However, money often easily fixes this obstacle in their path to aviation.

 

[pburger]

I'm not instrument rated, but curious what your first call up is after getting a release by phone. Approach, Skyhawk 123 just off SQL 1000 for 3000, IFR?

That's very close to what I say. Actually, you'd be contacting "Departure" in this case, not "Approach", and as pointed out already, no need to say "IFR". Other than that, that's it.

I live at a Class G airport. We pick up our clearances via phone and usually get a 5-minute void time (sometimes 10 minutes). The most common instruction I get on my release is "enter controlled airspace on a heading of 270." We are under a transition area, so controlled airspace starts at 700 AGL.

My first call up is usually, "Houston Departure, Nxxxx, just off Dry Creek, 1000 climbing to 2000, heading 270." or some such.

 

[mscard88]

That's very close to what I say. Actually, you'd be contacting "Departure" in this case, not "Approach", and as pointed out already, no need to say "IFR". Other than that, that's it.

Retired controller here and using "approach" off an uncontrolled airport perfectly fine. Man. see my post #40, I explained it from a controller and CFI viewpoint.

 

[danhagan]

Yup me too, and even a couple student Iranian Air Force controllers.
None of them, pilots & controllers, turned out good.

Comforting to know if one was a fighter pilot for the good ole USA

 

[mscard88]

Comforting to know if one was a fighter pilot for the good ole USA

They were Iranian AF student pilots training at a USAF pilot training base. I guess another way to look at it is glad they were potential adversaries and we knew their talent level. One evening had around 8-10 of them solo in T38s up in the IP's traffic pattern, and they were all over the place. IP calls up exasperated and apologizes, and I said no biggie Sir, we have no traffic and it's fun watching.

 

[danhagan]

They were Iranian AF student pilots training at a USAF pilot training base. I guess another way to look at it is glad they were potential adversaries and we knew their talent level. One evening had around 8-10 of them solo in T38s up in the IP's traffic pattern, and they were all over the place. IP calls up exasperated and apologizes, and I said no biggie Sir, we have no traffic and it's fun watching.

Yes, that's why I said comforting to know. Kind of like when you played sports in high school and knew the other team was bad - it would be one of your big stats night.

 

[UngaWunga]

Basically, yes. You won't have to say IFR, though, as you will have been given a squawk code in your clearance and should be squawking it already, so they will know who you are and what you're doing. You basically talk the same as you would if you were departing a towered field, except without the part where tower hands you off to approach/departure or the en route controller after takeoff. And you will hear the same thing back, which should be "radar contact" and possibly a higher altitude or anything else you might get when beginning an IFR flight.

This has turned out to be a pretty informative thread. Thanks.

Quick related question. What's the response ATC is looking for when VFR with FF, and they tell you 'radar contact at blah blah blah'? Basically, they're just telling you that they see you on radar, right?

 

[Hank S]

This has turned out to be a pretty informative thread. Thanks.

Quick related question. What's the response ATC is looking for when VFR with FF, and they tell you 'radar contact at blah blah blah'? Basically, they're just telling you that they see you on radar, right?

Generally they will include your altitude with radar contact, and want you to confirm it.

 

[Justin M]

This has turned out to be a pretty informative thread. Thanks.

Agreed, very informative and entertaining.

Quick related question. What's the response ATC is looking for when VFR with FF, and they tell you 'radar contact at blah blah blah'? Basically, they're just telling you that they see you on radar, right?

You are to tell the controller that they correctly identified your position and altitude and they haven't confused you with another aircraft.

If it doesn't match, something is wrong that needs to be fixed, but they need to know that it did match too.

Happens when squawking VFR codes too.

 

[iamtheari]

This has turned out to be a pretty informative thread. Thanks.

Quick related question. What's the response ATC is looking for when VFR with FF, and they tell you 'radar contact at blah blah blah'? Basically, they're just telling you that they see you on radar, right?

The response is "Position checks." There, now the flame war can begin! (This is a popular response that many pilots think is stupid. Other popular responses are "Roger" or just your tail number or even just clicking the microphone a few times.)

 

[denverpilot]

As far as the report goes... SMH. Wow.

Sounds like many weekend warriors that post here.

You must read different threads than I do.

This is odd. I also don't see that many "weekend warriors" that worry me much here. What threads?

We have a number of student threads and even a guy who's not a student at all who asks some very odd and entertaining instrument procedure questions, but I can't think of a thread in years where someone posted that they blasted off IFR without a clearance. Or anything like that.

 

[Palmpilot]

This is odd. I also don't see that many "weekend warriors" that worry me much here. What threads?

Yeah, it seems to me that the "weekend warriors" here are just as harsh as the professional pilots, if not more so, in their condemnation of pilots who display poor judgment or flout the rules.

 

[azure]

I've yet to encounter one without a SID. Got any examples?

Seriously?? I've been based at two: PHN and MPV. Both in Class E to the ground, neither has a SID. Both, of course, are pretty far from any busy airspace where SIDs are common.

Unless you meant something else...

 

[dmspilot]

I don't know what SIDs have anything. Is there some policy somewhere that all airports in controlled airspace have to have a SID? Heck there are Class D airports that don't have SIDs.

I think perhaps we should start over, with the facts, not misinformation.

It is possible to obtain a clearance on the ground at a Class G airport, either from FSS or from ATC, except that the clearance only applies to the part of the flight that occurs in controlled airspace. ATC can't issue clearances for uncontrolled airspace.

ATC can give clearances to aircraft at airports in Class E surface areas that start and are effective to and from the ground, even when there is no control tower. That's the whole point of having a Class E surface area. The route would start at the airport, not in the air as for Class G airports.

If ATC has the authority to issue a SID, they have the authority to issue a clearance with a route that starts on ground. Remember that the purpose of SIDs are to standardize instrument departures. They don't enable instrument departures. Also remember that a pilot can decline SIDs (and STARs).