Does anyone really hear you on the radio?

Hostile people live in a hostile world.
 
silver-eagle said:
Apparently so! Aero-News reporting.

And I didn't think anyone really heard me.
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From MA to OK? So who are these special clients you're trying to hide from us? ;)

In regards to this fool, besides the danger of talking about "hostile takeovers" to a Vance AFB controller... wouldn't turning off the radio (or otherwise ignoring the controller) be in violation of 91.129(c)(1)?

(c) Communications. Each person operating an aircraft in Class D
airspace must meet the following two-way radio communications
requirements:

(1) Arrival or through flight. Each person must establish two-way
radio communications with the ATC facility (including foreign ATC in the
case of foreign airspace designated in the United States) providing air
traffic services prior to entering that airspace and thereafter maintain
those communications while within that airspace.
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What a dumbass.
A controller asked what his destination was, and the pilot declined to say because he thought business competitors might use that information to steal his clients, according to The Associated Press.
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If his business is that fragile, he's got bigger problems than hostile takeovers.
 
I doubt he was still inside the delta airspace when he turned off the radio from the sounds of the article since Vance is about 60mile from OKC, and he was intercepted near OKC. He was probably in their NON-MANDATORY radar service area.
 
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EdFred said:
I doubt he was still inside the delta airspace when he turned off the radio from the sounds of the article since Vance is about 60mile from OKC, and he was intercepted near OKC. He was probably in their NON-MANDATORY radar service area.
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Makes more sense. Thanks :D
 
Seriously guys, don't say "Hostile Takeover" in the air. That's just asking for trouble. Silver Eagle - was that really you?
 
I've heard quite a few charter outfits hold their data off flightaware and the like for similar reasons.
 
i wish my FBO would do that, but for different reasons.

if, for any reason, flight aware cannot find the boss in the 421, the desk girls just go absolutely wacky. they dont realize that flight aware drops you several miles from the airport in most cases. they were much better off when they jsut didnt know when he was going to get anywhere until he got there
 
SkyHog said:
Seriously guys, don't say "Hostile Takeover" in the air. That's just asking for trouble. Silver Eagle - was that really you?
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Weren't me. I'm not the brightest bulb on the tree but I'm not about to do anything so foolish as to P/O a mil controller. Ah ah. Not me.
Goes right along with the lost student pilot who, when asked his last known position, he responded "Number 1 for departure.". I swear I really heard it, really I did.
 
The whole thing could have been avoided if he'd simply keyed the mic and said, "any hostile takeovers in the area, please advise."
 
"People should be very careful in this heightened state of security about comments they make regarding airplanes and air traffic," said FBI spokesman Jeff Lanza.
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should read

"People should be very careful in this heightened state of paranoia about comments they make regarding airplanes and air traffic"....

good grief and sigh.
 
Can you say "just don't bother talking to ATC?"
 
bbchien said:
...which is, increasingly what pilots are doing.....

Hmmmn. I wonder how C90 would have reacted to this.....

sigh.
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And even more so once we're charged for it.... I'm waiting until we're charged user fees for entering a Class B, then are shafted by ATC because they don't want to deal with us. That will be a lawsuit in the making.
 
wsuffa said:
Can you say "just don't bother talking to ATC?"
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:rolleyes: Yeah, awesome idea, just don't talk to anyone while transiting some of the busiest airspace in the country. Here's a better idea, maybe he should've just avoided Vance altogether.

BTW, the article says they launched VAFB F-16s. The vipers had to have been launched from Tulsa, as Vance has nothing but trainers.
 
It seems that a lot of pilots have radios, but they still fail to communicate!! Not all just some.
 
Patch said:
:rolleyes: Yeah, awesome idea, just don't talk to anyone while transiting some of the busiest airspace in the country. Here's a better idea, maybe he should've just avoided Vance altogether.
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Excuse me, last I knew airspace outside of the Class D (or C or B, as appropriate) doesn't require contact with the controllers.

There's plenty of airspace that's a lot busier than Vance (see, e.g., Chicago) where ATC outright refuses to talk to VFR traffic. And plenty of places (like STL of CVG) where the only reasonable way to go over the top is by NOT talking to ATC.

Yes, it would (usually) be safer to talk to ATC. I have, however, found myself in plenty of situations where ATC has offered me a less-safe routing or outright dropped me.
 
wsuffa said:
Excuse me, last I knew airspace outside of the Class D (or C or B, as appropriate) doesn't require contact with the controllers.

There's plenty of airspace that's a lot busier than Vance (see, e.g., Chicago) where ATC outright refuses to talk to VFR traffic. And plenty of places (like STL of CVG) where the only reasonable way to go over the top is by NOT talking to ATC....
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STL did talk to me when I went over the 8000 foot top at 9500. They did tell me to remain clear of the Bravo.

I didn't have to talk to them, but they were OK to me last year.

The only other time I've done it was going over Cleveland's 8000 foot top at 8500. That time they gave me vector toward the lake to keep me clear of a departure corridor from Hopkins. They pointed out airliners climbing out below me.

I dunno if I would try it over a 10000 foot Bravo.

It might be interesting to see if C90 would be more likely to talk to you if told them you were going over the top of ORD. They'd likely vector you 20 miles outside of the extended B boundaries. :rolleyes:
 
wsuffa said:
Excuse me, last I knew airspace outside of the Class D (or C or B, as appropriate) doesn't require contact with the controllers.
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I didn't say it's required, but it's most definitely not smart or safe.

There's plenty of airspace that's a lot busier than Vance (see, e.g., Chicago) where ATC outright refuses to talk to VFR traffic. And plenty of places (like STL of CVG) where the only reasonable way to go over the top is by NOT talking to ATC.
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Apples and oranges. Vance is the second busiest in the Air Force, with over 55,000 sorties per year. I've heard it's the third busiest amongst ga/mil bases, but I can't verify that. You're talking about a high volume of student activity consisting of fast moving military trainers.

It's just not smart to go buzzing through an active MOA without talking to anyone, especially at bases like Vance, Laughlin, Columbus, Sheppard, et al.

Chicago's airspace? Busy, of course. Lots of arrivals and departures to various airports, but Vance is a high volume of maneuvering traffic in the MOAs with an even higher volume of aircraft in the pattern. All are arriving and departing from one airport.

Yes, it would (usually) be safer to talk to ATC. I have, however, found myself in plenty of situations where ATC has offered me a less-safe routing or outright dropped me.
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It's in everyone's best interest to talk to the controlling agency of a MOA. If nothing else, they can either get you out of the way of traffic, or get traffic out of your way. Not talking exponentially increases your risk of disaster.
 
I thought I read something somewhere about the military discontinuing stuff when non-participating aircraft are in MOAs. Can't find it now.
 
SkyHog said:
I thought I read something somewhere about the military discontinuing stuff when non-participating aircraft are in MOAs. Can't find it now.
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If you're IFR with a clearance through, they will put limitations on other users. For example, I had an IFR clearance through Kingsville one day on the way to the Valley (the alternative IFR routing is about 75 miles out of the way) when they decided to make the MOA hot. The controllers gave me a lower altitude and restricted the military above me until I was clear.

In some MOAs and some VRs, there is essentially no contact between the mil aircraft and controllers.
 
Patch said:
I didn't say it's required, but it's most definitely not smart or safe.


It's in everyone's best interest to talk to the controlling agency of a MOA. If nothing else, they can either get you out of the way of traffic, or get traffic out of your way. Not talking exponentially increases your risk of disaster.
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I'm not going to argue with you. Maybe when you have a couple of thousand GA hours in you book - being sent hundreds of miles out of the way because controllers consider you a "pest" - we can have a reasonable discussion. I will point out that the reaction of the controller in this case certainly doesn't make ANY GA pilot want to talk to those controllers.
 
SkyHog said:
I thought I read something somewhere about the military discontinuing stuff when non-participating aircraft are in MOAs. Can't find it now.
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It's true. Unbriefed/planned/scheduled traffic in a MOA is a knock-it-off criteria that causes the aircraft using the MOA to discontinue what they were doing, losing valuable training.
 
wsuffa said:
I'm not going to argue with you. Maybe when you have a couple of thousand GA hours in you book - being sent hundreds of miles out of the way because controllers consider you a "pest" - we can have a reasonable discussion.
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What a cop out. :rolleyes: On the same note, maybe when you've flown in a two ship traveling more than 8 miles per minute, you can begin to understand the dangers of a "pest" tooling around at 69 knots right through your flight path.

Then again, I'd hate to inconvenience anyone and make them burn 4 more gallons of AVGAS in the name of good reason and safety. After all, losing an effective training sortie and wasting 500 gallons (per aircraft) of jet fuel is much more efficient. :rolleyes:


I will point out that the reaction of the controller in this case certainly doesn't make ANY GA pilot want to talk to those controllers.
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And I will counter that the oblivious nature of this GA pilot sure doesn't strengthen your argument that GA pilots have enough SA to transit an active MOA without being a danger to themselves or others.

In some MOAs and some VRs, there is essentially no contact between the mil aircraft and controllers.
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Every MOA has a controlling agency that the military aircraft are talking to. You may not be talking to them, but someone is in contact with them or they are monitoring a freq while in the MOA. All MOAs around UPT bases are controlled, but some other moas are scheduled with transmissions in the blind and monitored frequencies. VR/SR/IR routes are a bit different as communication is more difficult due to range/LOS issues.
 
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Patch said:
Every MOA has a controlling agency that the military aircraft are talking to. You may not be talking to them, but someone is in contact with them. VR/SR/IR routes are a bit different as communication is more difficult due to range/LOS issues.
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Come down my way. You'll find that some of the mil guys are turned loose in an MOA without talking to controllers.
 
wsuffa said:
Come down my way. You'll find that some of the mil guys are turned loose in an MOA without talking to controllers.
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I see KSSF in your profile, and I'll be out of KRND in August. I've flown into KSKF before. The aircraft in that area are most certainly talking to a controlling agency. You may not hear them over victor (since mil aircraft predominantly use UHF), but rest assured they are talking to someone and monitoring a frequency while maneuvering within the MOA.

Mil aircraft are always under an IFR clearance (unless training dictates otherwise, which is rare). They will be talking to someone. Your theories are incorrect.
 
wsuffa said:
Come down my way. You'll find that some of the mil guys are turned loose in an MOA without talking to controllers.
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You mean like the one in Florida that killed a Cessna pilot? This was pure poor piloting and reckless behaviors by the military pilot. The wreckage BTW fell less than a mile from my mothers house.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0011/16/bn.12.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/03/06/pilot.crash/index.html

Lots of room for everyone to be more careful and ensure that everything is done the safest way.
 
Patch said:
I see KSSF in your profile, and I'll be out of KRND in August. I've flown into KSKF before. The aircraft in that area are most certainly talking to a controlling agency. You may not hear them over victor (since mil aircraft predominantly use UHF), but rest assured they are talking to someone and monitoring a frequency while maneuvering within the MOA.

Mil aircraft are always under an IFR clearance (unless training dictates otherwise, which is rare). They will be talking to someone. Your theories are incorrect.
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I refuse to argue with someone on the internet. Especially ones who have made certain assumptions.
 
wsuffa said:
I refuse to argue with someone on the internet. Especially ones who have made certain assumptions.
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What assumptions have I made? So first I'm not qualified to even partake in a discussion about MOAs with you, now I've made "certain assumptions"? Interesting.

kevin47881 said:
I have found this particular member comments to be argumentative more often than not.
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That's unfortunate you believe that, but on the flip side I've found this board to be very sensitive to any discussion in which opposite views are presented.

smigaldi said:
You mean like the one in Florida that killed a Cessna pilot? This was pure poor piloting and reckless behaviors by the military pilot. The wreckage BTW fell less than a mile from my mothers house.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIP.../16/bn.12.html
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/03/0...ash/index.html

Lots of room for everyone to be more careful and ensure that everything is done the safest way.
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Pure poor piloting and reckless behaviors? Funny you should call it that based on a CNN article that does nothing to indicate such. I'd say that's pretty immature and poor technique. As with anything else, there was an error chain involved, and this one had many chances to be broken but wasn't. A tragic, avoidable event, but not reckless behavior.

The actual mishap pilot was the wingman, not even the guy who drug them too far south in the first place.
 
wsuffa said:
Come down my way. You'll find that some of the mil guys are turned loose in an MOA without talking to controllers.
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You could not be more wrong. We are always on frequency with a controlling agency in a MOA or on a low level route. After we report established in our section of the MOA (on UHF), we switch to a discrete frequency for our section of the MOA.

You guys could all argue with me until you're blue in the face that it's legal and you have every right to fly through a hot MOA. However, I can tell you from first hand experience that it's probably one of the dumbest things you can do. I can't begin to tell you how many sorties I've had that have gone to waste due to Cessnas and other GA aircraft flying through my MOA without even talking to someone. Often times I've had to knock off what I was doing because I've spotted traffic without ATC even notifiying me because they didn't have it on their scope. Additionally, ATC vectoring IFR traffic through a hot MOA is unsat as well, but that's a different argument altogether.

Confirming with ATC that a MOA is cold and flying through it is one thing, but blitsing through a hot MOA in your Cessna is extremely unsafe and stupid. For those that avoid hot MOA's, good on ya'. For those that don't: get a friggin clue before you kill yourself and others.
 
IamBull said:
You could not be more wrong. We are always on frequency with a controlling agency in a MOA or on a low level route. After we report established in our section of the MOA (on UHF), we switch to a discrete frequency for our section of the MOA.

You guys could all argue with me until you're blue in the face that it's legal and you have every right to fly through a hot MOA. However, I can tell you from first hand experience that it's probably one of the dumbest things you can do. I can't begin to tell you how many sorties I've had that have gone to waste due to Cessnas and other GA aircraft flying through my MOA without even talking to someone. Often times I've had to knock off what I was doing because I've spotted traffic without ATC even notifiying me because they didn't have it on their scope. Additionally, ATC vectoring IFR traffic through a hot MOA is unsat as well, but that's a different argument altogether.

Confirming with ATC that a MOA is cold and flying through it is one thing, but blitsing through a hot MOA in your Cessna is extremely unsafe and stupid. For those that avoid hot MOA's, good on ya'. For those that don't: get a friggin clue before you kill yourself and others.
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I didn't see anybody in this thread advocating NORDO through an MOA.
 
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