DoD Expects to Save Nearly $50 Billion
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poadeleted3
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Well, if nothing else, the traffic pattern at Wings will open up, and I won't have to worry about accidentally popping into Willow Grove's airspace if the bases close as planned. Good or bad? I'm glad we may save some money, but I'm wondering if we are enhancing our war fighting capability? Hope so.
maximus
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Well local governments are obviously opposed to such closures. I know Springfield Illinois is fighting to keep the 183 fighter wing at SPI. I would hate to see em go... lots of local jobs.
Joe Williams said:
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Richard
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Ack...city life
Looking at CA what I see is closure of redundant facilities and a net gain of over 2,000 personnel at the bases which I am most familiar with. In fact, Camp Roberts, close to here, is ramping up to close to WWII levels but that has been on the books for several years. Based on what I saw in the link you provided I am in favor of the closures/gains.
poadeleted3
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maximus said:
Yeah, I know it's hard on the communities, all who have supported our bases, and men and women, well for many years. But, when you get right down to it, DoD just isn't a jobs program. Kinda hardcore and mean, I guess, but the most important thing has to be our warfighting capability. Money spent keeping a base open that doesn't meet our strategic needs is money that isn't spent on training, equipment, or troop numbers that may save lives. My home town of Charleston, WV is looking at losing it's C130s. Once they go, who believes the rest of the Air Guard base will be around long? What need for a tactical airlift wing with no planes? That will really hurt an already hurting area.
Iceman
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maximus said:
We have the same problem here in Michigan. The airport I fly out of Battle Creek is on the cutting block too. I will really hate to see all the A10's leave the airport. It's like going to an airshow every time I go fly. There is nothing quite like a pair of A10's coming up on your backside when on the ILS.
maximus
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Iceman said:
A-10's thats awesome!!! We only have crummy lawn darts.
Jeff Oslick
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While I do think many/most of these probably make sense from a logistical & strategic point, I am suspicious of the accuracy of the claimed savings. $50B over 20 years - well, let's break that down: at least ~$30B of that is probably wages and benefits. Then there is the physical move-out/close-out cost. Then there is the relocation cost for many who are moving to other locations. Job retraining. Costs/losses to the local communities (which I'm sure aren't considered, since DoD isn't paying for that part).
And then there are the property transfer and environmental liability costs. Especially for the major Naval Stations/Shipyards, Air Force Bases, and any other facility that was more than just office space, I bet the cost to clean up to community reuse standards will far exceed the value of most of those properties when they are ultimately sold off. I've been doing these base environmental cleanups throughout California for the last 6 years, so I know what it takes, and how amazingly expensive, difficult and inefficient the process can be, especially when dealing with all the military/government procedures. $50B savings? I very much doubt it. I'd be amazed if the total was half that number looking back 20 years from now.
But since our military and Congress habitually lie to us regarding what things cost, why should BRAC be any different? Then again, since this is all borrowed money anyway, I guess it would be psuedo-legitmate to add in the savings in debt-interest over those years - maybe that's how they get the numbers to work. Of course that's assuming the defense budgets actually shrank by the same amount, which, of course, they won't.
Jeff
And then there are the property transfer and environmental liability costs. Especially for the major Naval Stations/Shipyards, Air Force Bases, and any other facility that was more than just office space, I bet the cost to clean up to community reuse standards will far exceed the value of most of those properties when they are ultimately sold off. I've been doing these base environmental cleanups throughout California for the last 6 years, so I know what it takes, and how amazingly expensive, difficult and inefficient the process can be, especially when dealing with all the military/government procedures. $50B savings? I very much doubt it. I'd be amazed if the total was half that number looking back 20 years from now.
But since our military and Congress habitually lie to us regarding what things cost, why should BRAC be any different? Then again, since this is all borrowed money anyway, I guess it would be psuedo-legitmate to add in the savings in debt-interest over those years - maybe that's how they get the numbers to work. Of course that's assuming the defense budgets actually shrank by the same amount, which, of course, they won't.
Jeff
Richard
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Ack...city life
Jeff, I agree with you WRT the skepticism of that amount but I think we need to, ah, broaden our definition of 'savings'.
Reducing the expenditures in the 3000 account may increase expenditures in the 9000 account but if you look only at the 3000 account you'll see a 'savings'. However, I think there will be a real savings since it's not dollar for dollar between accounts.
It's like some of my competitors saying they lost money on a project. In truth, they made money, just not as much as they anticipated or maybe their final invoice shows a balance. I never understand such talk.
BTW: CA state education budget figures were released today. The Governator proposes spending $230M on classroom size reduction but $1.3B on school transportation. On paper it looks like he's doing something absolutely fabulous but in reality it looks like a lot of kids will be bussed out of district to under utilized schools. It's the same kind of shuffle.
Reducing the expenditures in the 3000 account may increase expenditures in the 9000 account but if you look only at the 3000 account you'll see a 'savings'. However, I think there will be a real savings since it's not dollar for dollar between accounts.
It's like some of my competitors saying they lost money on a project. In truth, they made money, just not as much as they anticipated or maybe their final invoice shows a balance. I never understand such talk.
BTW: CA state education budget figures were released today. The Governator proposes spending $230M on classroom size reduction but $1.3B on school transportation. On paper it looks like he's doing something absolutely fabulous but in reality it looks like a lot of kids will be bussed out of district to under utilized schools. It's the same kind of shuffle.
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wsuffa
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Joe Williams said:
Don't count on it. I can't recall very many times where the military gives up airspace....
corjulo
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Big savings? It will be more then off set by the mess in Iraq. They are going to have to close some bases, because they can't seem to recruit enough people to fill the ones they have. At least not in the Marines or Army.
Tom-D
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Iceman said:
Guess who is paying for the war in Iraq? - DOD
We are in a transition, from out dated methods of operations to lean manufacturing. many of our instalations are not required to preform our duties today, so the US is down sizing to meet the requirements of a fast deployable force.
The Taxpayer can no longer carry the burden of the bloated military.
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corjulo
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The Sub base closing in Connecticut is going to really hurt. That is a huge installation with some really nasty waste to clean up. 15000 jobs lost at least. Not to mention a republican congressman who ran on a promise to save the base and won by a very very small margin.
Tom-D
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corjulo said:
What are we using the Nuki boats for?
At what cost?
WE know where each and every russian boat is located, and what condition it is in.
Those big nuki boats are a relick from a cold war period. we don't really need them any more in the numbers we have in service.
Jeff Oslick
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NC19143 said:
Except it is only a matter of time before other nations develop the same technology or buy the old boats from Russia. China, India...??? We need to have both enough boats, and some ability to build new ones in the future.
Jeff
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Jeff Oslick said:
Delt dock at Bangor can support all we need. and that still leaves Holly Loc Scotland.
WE also must remember who won the election and who is being cut .
DoD has always been a method of getting even "pork barrel"
Washington state seems to be the exception.
Tim
Line Up and Wait
It says they are moving the F-16s and the A-10s out of here that just leaves the antiques, here. I don't mind the A-10 but you can have the noise makers they call F-16s. Wait till all the fighting gets done and see what really happens.
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Jeff Oslick
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NC19143 said:
They're proposing to close both the Portsmouth, ME shipyard and the Bangor Air Station. Sounds like Maine is taking a whipping, and both of the Senators from Maine are Republican. Portsmouth is the oldest Navy shipyard in the country, I think. I can only imagine what that will cost to clean up.
Jeff
silver-eagle
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They closed South Weymouth NAS 8 years ago and STILL haven't done anything good with it. The reuse committee has had a couple of nibbles from Outlet Mall builders; deals that fell through. Do we really need another mall with 5 or 6 major malls within 10 miles? Not to mention the traffic in the area is horrendous already.
The money 'saved' is the operating costs for those bases. The real costs are the loses to the communitees and the families involved. Like any major employer, when a SQUADRON or the base leaves, there is a major hole to fill for the communitee. Businesses seek tax incentives; what can DOD ask for?
The money 'saved' is the operating costs for those bases. The real costs are the loses to the communitees and the families involved. Like any major employer, when a SQUADRON or the base leaves, there is a major hole to fill for the communitee. Businesses seek tax incentives; what can DOD ask for?
Nav8tor
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wsuffa said:
Willow Grove only has a Class D to support operations in and out of the field. Once the runway is gone there would be no reason not to give up the airspace. Even if they didn't, once the tower is closed the Class D will effectively go away.
corjulo
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NC19143 said:
I see your logic, but its still a painful hit. All that's left is the Indian Casinos
Richard
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Ack...city life
Let me run this past y'all to see if it passes the smell test:
Much like the towns which grew up around the mining operations--even though they knew the mine would one day close the town kept building. That day came, they whined, then they either moved on or found something else to support the town.
Communities which depend too much on the military base will suffer. Oh, they can whine but nothing last forever. In this way, it is simply PP planning on the part of the city council, et al.
How often do you hear the advice that your portfolio should be all in one stock?
Much like the towns which grew up around the mining operations--even though they knew the mine would one day close the town kept building. That day came, they whined, then they either moved on or found something else to support the town.
Communities which depend too much on the military base will suffer. Oh, they can whine but nothing last forever. In this way, it is simply PP planning on the part of the city council, et al.
How often do you hear the advice that your portfolio should be all in one stock?
Richard
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Ack...city life
Necropost y'all.
10 yrs later...
Anyone see their $5 back? Me neither.
$5, 50, 500 5,000, as the fat lady said, what difference, at this point, what difference does it make? It's fiat coinage.
10 yrs later...
Anyone see their $5 back? Me neither.
$5, 50, 500 5,000, as the fat lady said, what difference, at this point, what difference does it make? It's fiat coinage.
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rbridges
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I freaked when I saw this thread. I live next to Robins AFB, and it basically supports middle georgia. Then I saw the date. 
Gucci Pilot
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Gucci Pilot
No, but Willow Grove did in fact lose the Class D airspace when the A-10s left.