Do you work with folks like this??? (Non Spin)

[poadeleted1]

[FONT=Times New Roman,Times,serif][SIZE=+1]The Arrogance Of Ignorance[/SIZE][/FONT]
A new generation of the serenely clueless is
ready, willing and able to destroy your company
Jan, 18, 2006

By Mark Gottlieb (INDUSTRY WEEK)

Your livelihood and your future are both in peril. The threat you face derives not from any external factors that may affect your company. Instead, it comes from your own employees.

The deadliest business hazard of our time is the result of a sea change in the American approach to education that occurred early in the 1970s.

Across the United States, conventional educational standards were tossed out the window, replaced with feel-good theories like “whole-language learning” that emphasized personal fulfillment over the accumulation of hard knowledge.

As a result, we now have two generations of men and women who expect gold stars not for succeeding, but simply for trying.

And, sometimes, merely for showing up. In Great Britain, even primary school students can name all the monarchs of England. How many American children can name the capital of their own state? In India, the study of mathematics is practically a religion. In the United States, how many retail clerks can make change without relying on a calculator?

In Germany, vocational education is a rigorous and honorable pursuit, producing highly qualified workers and tradesmen. In the U.S.A., people actually boast about their inability to deal with anything mechanical. But sheer stupidity is not the greatest danger presented by the current crop of blank slates. It is the arrogance bred of ignorance that constitutes an unparalleled descent into goofiness.

In the long-dead past, incompetents generally recognized their own incapacity and behaved accordingly. Today, every jackass sees himself as a genius, and every fool fancies herself a philosopher. Once, a young colleague at a major firm accosted me in tones of confusion and desperation. “Mark! Mark!” she called as I walked past her office door. “When was World War II?”

I thought at first that she was joking, but, alas, she was not. The deadliest global conflict in human history had somehow escaped her notice. Yet if I had asked if she honestly believed she deserved her B.A. and felt qualified to perform her job, she would have been gravely insulted and likely kicked me until I was dead. Like the pod people of Invasion of the Body Snatchers, the arrogantly ignorant appear at first glance as normal as you or me. But beware.

The most profound risk they represent springs not from their cluelessness, but from their inability to recognize their own limitations. Such blind hubris can lead to monumental errors of judgment, grotesque mistakes, and the refusal to accept—despite a mountain of evidence—that the strategy they are pursuing may be leading your organization off a cliff. When people like that are in your employ, it is you, not they, who suffer the consequences.

These days, the arrogance of ignorance is so pervasive that I feel confident in making a small wager: Ten bucks says that the worst offenders will read these words and wonder, “Who is this joker talking about?” If characters like that work for your company—brother, you’re in for a world of hurt.

 

[wbarnhill]

While I agree that today students are taught to learn for the test, not for knowledge, I don't see where knowing all of the monarchs of England would make an individual more qualified (unless of course, that individual is teaching British History!). It seems as if this author has taken the premise that a degree is meaningless, or that you will simply obliterate your company, if you do not retain all of the knowledge imparted to you in every course you took.

Now, if individuals act as if they are above learning things (or relearning, such as dates about WWII), then I could see the problem and that thought process IS dangerous, but merely not being able to remember exact dates about historical events or specific figures in history does not automatically make one "arrogant about ignorance". Mr. Gottlieb's point is destroyed because he cannot show how this "problem" negatively affects the workplace. Instead he draws a conclusion along the lines of: "Students today do not retain the vast amounts of knowledge imparted to them. Therefore, they are ignorant and a danger to your company." It just doesn't work.

 

[wsuffa]

There IS a problem with education. Most employers will tell you that the schools are not educating students to meet employment needs. Many (at least in this part of the world) will also tell you that "teaching to the test" only makes the problem worse as the schools have little or no flexibility to meet employer needs.

Multiple tens of thousands (I heard a number in excess of 65,000) did not pass the required exit exam this year in this state alone. Thus, they cannot graduate. My bet (with no data to back it up) is that these former students will end up with either 1) no ability to get higher education, 2) with a lesser position than if they had a diploma, or 3) out of work entirely. And I think, personally, that there is plenty of blame to go around.

IMHO, we need to revamp education to teach skills that the students will need to either go to college or enter the workforce as productive employees. If that means dumping the government-mandated testing in favor of standards that are cooperatively set between educators and employers, then so be it. Perhaps dual-track programs (one for folks going to college, one for folks going into a vocation) are required.

 

[wbarnhill]

IMHO, we need to revamp education to teach skills that the students will need to either go to college or enter the workforce as productive employees. If that means dumping the government-mandated testing in favor of standards that are cooperatively set between educators and employers, then so be it. Perhaps dual-track programs (one for folks going to college, one for folks going into a vocation) are required.

In many areas of the nation, this is already the case. At South Florence, there were two tracks, College Prep and Tech Prep. Tech Prep students, while their educational courses seemed to be simpler, they were being taught essentials while they took vocational courses at the career center next door. College Prep courses were more stringent and were meant to provide an entrance into the university of your choice.

But take a look at the General Education requirements for my degree (And the courses I took):

Behavioral Science - 3 Hrs - PSYC 101
Fine Arts Lectureship Series - 1 Hr - No course, attend 15 approved lectures
Fine Arts - 3 Hrs - ART 101
Foreign Language - 0 - 6 Hrs - FR 111
Global Issues / Nonwestern Studies - 3 Hrs - POLS 314 (Russian Politics)
History - 3 Hrs - HIST 102 (Western Civ. 1914-Present)
Humanities/Literature - 3 Hrs - ENGL 202 (Women in Modern Literature)
Humanities - 3 Hrs - PHIL 103 (Introduction to Logic)
Laboratory Science - 8 Hrs - CHEM 111/112
Logic & Analytical Thought (PreCal or Calc 1)- 3 Hrs - MATH 131 (Calc 1)
Mathematics (Calc for Business or Calc 2)- 3 Hrs - MATH 132 (Calc 2)
Political Economy - 3 Hrs - ECON 202 (Macroeconomics)
Wellness - 3 Hrs - PEES 165
Writing (Engl. 1/2) - 6 Hrs - ENGL 1/2

In the realm of Computer Science, if I forget how to determine pH through titration, or who Sylvia Plath was, am I automatically a poor worker? What about if I forget which came first, Rococo or Romanticism?

 

[poadeleted1]

William, summarizing what you said would be difficult. But, and dont take this the wrong way, you are in the forest, unable to see the trees.

In my world of employment (civilian), I am astounded by the shallowness of the education of college grads in the US. While we often cannot outsource our work because of security requirements, we will utilize green card" holders who have been vetted. The new crop of engineers we have could not do a calc on paper to save their life. They could not write a cogent paper or proposal for a project.

But give them a gameboy....

Maybe you and your school are different, but by and large, todays US college grads are not what they were 25 years ago. Then, you had to work hard to get in, but if you did not, you were not a failure. You could still be a vital member of society. Todays generation? Manual Labor? Isnt Manual Labor one of those guys they caught sneaking across the border? Dont know him at all.

 

[infotango]

I don't know about that birdman, I was chatting with the director of my law school admissions the other day, and he was telling me that the quality of students applying to law school today is 10x higher than it was 15 years ago. Across the board, scores are up on standardized tests (I know it's not a perfect measure of a student's ability) students are more well rounded, and studies show that students are performing better at both law schools and after school than ever before. (Mind you, the same number of students still fail out of law school, most schools require that a certain percentage of students fail out each year.)
The problems in Engineering are more acute. I went to a very good college and majored in math, earning accolades for my thesis. Yet I never considered going into engineering, despite being fascinated by aviation. Why? Engineering doesn't pay nearly as well as law. Despite requiring a graduate degree (at least for people who went to colleges like mine), starting engineers earn 45-60K. Starting lawyers earn 65-150K. If American engineering concerns want to attract more domestic talent, they are going to need to pay more.
I am tired of people saying that my generation doesn't work as hard, is not as well educated etc. At least from the studies I've seen, students in most colleges are working longer hours than students from 20 years ago. The difference is that today more people go to college, whereas 20 years ago only the best students went to college. Almost all jobs today require at least a 2 year degree. There are more schools today and schools are turning out students at all levels of education. Today, unfortunately, having a college degree is not a guaranty of anything.

Oh, and for the record, I am strongly against tracking programs which put students onto either a college course or a non-college course. I was a lousy to horrible student until 10th grade when I buckled down, worked really hard, and managed to become the best student in my class. If I had been put on a tracking program, that would have never happened.

 

[The Old Man]

There is knowledge, and then there is education. What I saw beginning in the late 70s was the emphasis shifting from experience and demonstrated ability to the number of letters behind your name.

People entering the work force in mid-level positions with no line or supervisory experience. Of course they made mistakes. But instead of analyzing the mistakes from holistic view, they were analyzed from a numerical baseline. "you did such and such before the rate reached x%" rather than "the guy on the line who has been doing this for years tried to warn you that it just didn't look right."

This approach then went into the educational regime where all are taught decision making and performance by strict numbers. Dates, numbers and current facts are the "bible". How the current facts got there and why those numbers occur are immaterial. How is the only thing taught. Why is completely ignored.

Educated people now have little ability to make rational judgements when they were taught to "do this at this point and then this at this point". The heck with any variables that may change when and how you do something.

I chuckle when I see an airport entry with TPA 1849MSL and look at the elevation: 849MSL. Like you should absolutely be at 1849 on downwind regardless of actual wind speed or direction. I am getting to where I see red when the advise is; reduce power to 1600RPM abeam the numbers. Regardless of whether the TPA is 1000AGL or 800AGL or there is a crosswind which will aid or hinder the base leg.

This is the end result of trying to do everything by a set of numbers.

 

[mikea]

...

I chuckle when I see an airport entry with TPA 1849MSL and look at the elevation: 849MSL. Like you should absolutely be at 1849 on downwind regardless of actual wind speed or direction. I am getting to where I see red when the advise is; reduce power to 1600RPM abeam the numbers. Regardless of whether the TPA is 1000AGL or 800AGL or there is a crosswind which will aid or hinder the base leg.

This is the end result of trying to do everything by a set of numbers.

I never heard that there's any variation in the pattern altitude. My CFI would insist I'd be at 1849 and I am well before turning downwind, because THAT'S WHERE ANY OTHER TRAFFIC WILL BE and if you're above or below them you will have a much harder time seeing them.

Yeah, I don't always get it to the nearest foot, but I get it within 10-20 feet.

I will admit that I have more than once gone around because the tailwind on base put the runway too far inside my turn to final. I will not mess with overcorrecting back to final and risk a stall/spin.

 

[DeeG]

We were ordering lunch from one of the local burger joints last week and asked the gal on the phone to please sub total each order so everyone would know what they owed. She couldn't figure out what 'sub total' meant.

ANd another co-worker had gone to a store to pick up some items. Electricity went out, and so did the electronic cash registers. Cashier could NOT figure out how to count change back. And he couldn't figure out how to calculate and add sales tax.

It is pathetic that some folks cannot figure out simple little things like counting change (which I learned to do as a small child).

While its probably not important that I can rattle off the 50 states in alphabetical order, basic job knowledge would be nice.

 

[jesse]

How many American children can name the capital of their own state?

Every student I've ever met throughout school was capable of such unless they had a serious mental or learning disability.

 

[wsuffa]

There is knowledge, and then there is education. What I saw beginning in the late 70s was the emphasis shifting from experience and demonstrated ability to the number of letters behind your name.
.....

Educated people now have little ability to make rational judgements when they were taught to "do this at this point and then this at this point". The heck with any variables that may change when and how you do something.

I chuckle when I see an airport entry with TPA 1849MSL and look at the elevation: 849MSL. Like you should absolutely be at 1849 on downwind regardless of actual wind speed or direction. I am getting to where I see red when the advise is; reduce power to 1600RPM abeam the numbers. Regardless of whether the TPA is 1000AGL or 800AGL or there is a crosswind which will aid or hinder the base leg.

This is the end result of trying to do everything by a set of numbers.

To some degree that is driven by "zero tolerance" programs. I believe in the old adage: "If you're not making mistakes, you're not trying hard enough"

I will say this, though, the "teach to the test" and similar programs encourage the behavior you describe because it allows no tolerance or room for individual learning nor spatial thinking. As a country, we need both.

 

[wsuffa]

In many areas of the nation, this is already the case. At South Florence, there were two tracks, College Prep and Tech Prep. Tech Prep students, while their educational courses seemed to be simpler, they were being taught essentials while they took vocational courses at the career center next door. College Prep courses were more stringent and were meant to provide an entrance into the university of your choice.
<snip>

In the realm of Computer Science, if I forget how to determine pH through titration, or who Sylvia Plath was, am I automatically a poor worker? What about if I forget which came first, Rococo or Romanticism?

What you need to learn is a thought process. If you forget details that you don't learn every day, well, it happens. However, as a software designer you may look for a job creating systems that automate pH titration processes, or help to provide analysis of literary works. Knowing the background, and having exposure to literature and sciences is critical to creating a well-rounded worker.

I believe that all children ought to have the opportunity to travel internationally - learning the culture of the other country as best they can. Why? Because it gives a sense of the broader world, it expands horizons, and it often shows how good we have it here in the US. I think it makes for a much different attitude. Yeah, they can read McNews while they're traveling to keep current, but some real value comes from seeing how others view our culture as well as their own. One of my nieces came back a changed person after visiting Greece with her boyfriend's family (first/second generation immigrants from Greece). She learned how good she really has it here in the US.

 

[wbarnhill]

William, summarizing what you said would be difficult. But, and dont take this the wrong way, you are in the forest, unable to see the trees.

In my world of employment (civilian), I am astounded by the shallowness of the education of college grads in the US. While we often cannot outsource our work because of security requirements, we will utilize green card" holders who have been vetted. The new crop of engineers we have could not do a calc on paper to save their life. They could not write a cogent paper or proposal for a project.

But give them a gameboy....

Maybe you and your school are different, but by and large, todays US college grads are not what they were 25 years ago. Then, you had to work hard to get in, but if you did not, you were not a failure. You could still be a vital member of society. Todays generation? Manual Labor? Isnt Manual Labor one of those guys they caught sneaking across the border? Dont know him at all.

Thing is, I agree with you. Our education system is teaching to the test, that's it. While I won't get into my opinion on WHY the schools are doing this, I'll just say that standardized testing was one of the worst things to happen to schools, not because the testing wasn't correct, but it was and is being used in the wrong manner.

Anyhow, as I was saying, the schools teach to the test. A teacher's job (today) is to give you the knowledge to pass the test, after that it's not their job. Higher grades on tests mean happier students, and both of those generally equate to job security.

My only point is that the position put forth by Mr. Gottleib is flawed. He has the right idea (as do you), but is using all the wrong examples.

 

[wbarnhill]

What you need to learn is a thought process. If you forget details that you don't learn every day, well, it happens. However, as a software designer you may look for a job creating systems that automate pH titration processes, or help to provide analysis of literary works. Knowing the background, and having exposure to literature and sciences is critical to creating a well-rounded worker.

I believe that all children ought to have the opportunity to travel internationally - learning the culture of the other country as best they can. Why? Because it gives a sense of the broader world, it expands horizons, and it often shows how good we have it here in the US. I think it makes for a much different attitude. Yeah, they can read McNews while they're traveling to keep current, but some real value comes from seeing how others view our culture as well as their own. One of my nieces came back a changed person after visiting Greece with her boyfriend's family (first/second generation immigrants from Greece). She learned how good she really has it here in the US.

Totally agree on both points.

 

[The Old Man]

I never heard that there's any variation in the pattern altitude. My CFI would insist I'd be at 1849 and I am well before turning downwind, because THAT'S WHERE ANY OTHER TRAFFIC WILL BE and if you're above or below them you will have a much harder time seeing them.

There is lots of variation. T31 (Homedrome) is 1600MSL which is 808' above the published field elevation. McKinney (TKI) is 1500MSL which is 915' above the Field Elevation. Midland (MAF) is 3900MSL which is 1029 AGL. El Paso Horizon (T27) is 4807 which is 800AGL. AS to where the other traffic will be, see next comment

Yeah, I don't always get it to the nearest foot, but I get it within 10-20 feet.

If you can get it to within 10-20 feet and stay there for the entire downwind, you are a better pilot than I, sir. Speed changes, power changes, configuration (flaps) changes plus normal ground induced turbulence will make +/-20 very hard to do. Now add in altimeter variations and setting errors and your +/-20 is completely shot. i.e. the other traffic is going to be more likely +/- 50-100 from your altitude at any time during downwind.

I will admit that I have more than once gone around because the tailwind on base put the runway too far inside my turn to final. I will not mess with overcorrecting back to final and risk a stall/spin.

That can be avoided by planning ahead. Fly a slightly wider pattern and reduce power a little more than nominal.

Which brings me back to my original point: doing things strictly by a published set of numbers takes away your responsibility to use judgement based on experience and knowledge of current circumstances.

 

[astanley]

I have seen some of this in pockets, generally very small and not long lived. IMO, most kids coming out of school realize they have a long hill to climb to be successful.

I could really start to wax on this subject, but I'll refrain for now.

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[SkyHog]

It is firmly my opinion that a degree proves one thing:

Perserverence (sp? eek, I'm a college student even).

I have not learned one damn thing since I started school, except maybe how to do mundane math problems that will never be used again in the real world. I have friends that have finished school and haven't either.

Here's the thing. I can do any job I wanted to right now. The lack of the degree keeps me from it. So I go to school, hopefully to prove that I wanted the job enough. Not to learn anything.

My quote, uttered often to get through the year:

"I'm not here to learn anything. I'm here to get a degree."

 

[astanley]

Nick,

While I agree that a degree does show the ability to go to school persevere through hard work, I think it is rarely a quality or performance indicator. This does not apply to certain top-tier institutions, due to the level of academic rigor that isn't found much any where else.

In general, however, I see just as many poor performers with parchment as I do without it.

Disclosure: I do not have a college degree and am contemplating "going back" - merely to not have to explain why I do not have a degree, as it has closed off some opportunities for me. It has not, up until this point, hindered my ability to be successful and quickly climb through the ranks of my organization, but I'm not sure how far this train goes . . .

Cheers,

-Andrew

 

[wbarnhill]

My quote, uttered often to get through the year:

"I'm not here to learn anything. I'm here to get a degree."

My father's quote upon my statement that I hadn't really learned anything that I think would be helpful in a work setting (paraphrased):

"You're not there to learn how to do a job. If you wanted that, you should've gone to tech. You're there to show you're mature enough to seek education on your own, and by extension, willing to learn a job and be mature enough to accept responsibilities related to that job."

 

[The Old Man]

Disclosure: I do not have a college degree and am contemplating "going back" - merely to not have to explain why I do not have a degree, as it has closed off some opportunities for me. It has not, up until this point, hindered my ability to be successful and quickly climb through the ranks of my organization, but I'm not sure how far this train goes . . .

Andrew,
Get your degree. I never attended one day of college. At one time, I found myself at the top of a pay scale (based on performance and demonstrated ability) in a job which I could not be hired for at the bottom of the scale and ineligible for any future promotion due to lack of a degree.
I left that company for another with less emphasis on degrees and within 5 months was a department manager (again based on performance). That company was bought by a larger company and my future progression was again blocked by the lack of a degree.
Fortunately, I was working with small computers then at a time when CS degrees covered only mainframes. I started a small PC consulting company and did quite well for several years (until the slowdown in the mid-80s). I got back on track in the early 90s as a contract system designer.
I cannot see how a degree would have made my ability to do what I was doing any better, but it would have opened the doors for me.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have not learned one damn thing since I started school, except maybe how to do mundane math problems that will never be used again in the real world.

Nick,

You may not realize what you've learned until later. Especially with the math - I used to think that Calculus was the most worthless thing, until I got a good instructor who was able to relate it to the real world. Now, I see potential applications for Calc all over the place.

Also, while a lot of the classes may seem completely irrelevant, the true learning takes place not in the classroom, but outside when YOU put together all of the accumulated knowledge and add your own perspective and ideas to form a greater whole.

I used to hate the fact that I (at UW-Milwaukee) had to take classes that the EE students at UW-Madison didn't have to take and didn't seem relevant to EE: Statics, Dynamics, Thermodynamics, Heat Transfer, Materials, and a few others. However, it did give me a good base engineering education, and all of the branches of engineering really are related, so... Last night I was talking with my brother, a recent UW-Madison E(C)E graduate who is now having to solve a heating issue on a project at work - Due to design and reliability concerns, they can't use a fan (just the airflow moving through from the main fan) and the heat sink can't be more than 7mm thick. He's almost clueless. I just said "Yeah, you never had to take Thermo or Heat Transfer didja?"

However... I sure know how you feel. And it sure is an awful lot of work for a seemingly limited return.

 

[Bill]

The problems in Engineering are more acute. I went to a very good college and majored in math, earning accolades for my thesis. Yet I never considered going into engineering, despite being fascinated by aviation. Why? Engineering doesn't pay nearly as well as law. Despite requiring a graduate degree (at least for people who went to colleges like mine), starting engineers earn 45-60K. Starting lawyers earn 65-150K. If American engineering concerns want to attract more domestic talent, they are going to need to pay more.

Never gonna happen. In fact, the engineering based industries got together and convinced Washington there was a lack of engineers, and that resulted in H1B visas to bring in foreign engineers. Those foreign guys (and gals) were willing to work for far less than American engineers, so the companies got what they desired, reduced outlay for engineering, and supression of engineering pay. That has been further reinforced by outsourcing.

America does not value those who can invent and manufacture, just those who can move $'s from one column to the other. I wish I had just sat back in college and drank more beer and and partied with those guys I laughed at (business students). While my starting pay was better, most of them have smoked me bigtime by now.

I have one more aviation goal, the commercial, and after that I'm going back to school to get an MBA. I need to get out of engineering if I want to further better myself and my family.

 

[infotango]

Never gonna happen. In fact, the engineering based industries got together and convinced Washington there was a lack of engineers, and that resulted in H1B visas to bring in foreign engineers. Those foreign guys (and gals) were willing to work for far less than American engineers, so the companies got what they desired, reduced outlay for engineering, and supression of engineering pay. That has been further reinforced by outsourcing.

America does not value those who can invent and manufacture, just those who can move $'s from one column to the other. I wish I had just sat back in college and drank more beer and and partied with those guys I laughed at (business students). While my starting pay was better, most of them have smoked me bigtime by now.

I have one more aviation goal, the commercial, and after that I'm going back to school to get an MBA. I need to get out of engineering if I want to further better myself and my family.

Pathetic isn't it? Sigh....

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have one more aviation goal, the commercial, and after that I'm going back to school to get an MBA. I need to get out of engineering if I want to further better myself and my family.

After I finish my BSEE (hopefully Dec. 07), one of the most likely courses of action is for me to jump back in the truck and do my MBA online whilst making money. Ironically, this idea popped into my head because I saw a billboard for my school's online MBA program while rolling down the road in the truck!

There are still areas where American engineers can do quite well. A friend of mine got a degree in Metallurgical Engineering and was making $90K within two years.

I sure hope that the trend of outsourcing and bringing in foreigners is stopped. Part of the problem, though, is that we as a country are getting lazy. It is tough tough tough to get an engineering degree. Lots and lots of hard work, most people take 5 years these days (except for the bookworms, and they often don't do well in real-world engineering) and now we're looking at pay scales that soon will no longer provide the motivation for a lot of folks to do all the hard work required to become an engineer.

Going from truck driver trainer to engineer would likely result in a $10K/yr pay cut for me. That's just not right. It's also why I'll probably do the MBA and then strike out on my own.

 

[SJP]

We were ordering lunch from one of the local burger joints last week and asked the gal on the phone to please sub total each order so everyone would know what they owed. She couldn't figure out what 'sub total' meant.

ANd another co-worker had gone to a store to pick up some items. Electricity went out, and so did the electronic cash registers. Cashier could NOT figure out how to count change back. And he couldn't figure out how to calculate and add sales tax.

It is pathetic that some folks cannot figure out simple little things like counting change (which I learned to do as a small child).

While its probably not important that I can rattle off the 50 states in alphabetical order, basic job knowledge would be nice.

There used to be a little snack truck that would come to our building. Every day, I would have a Cheese Hoagie roll, and an apple. The Roll was $1.25, and the apple was $0.50.

Every day, the lady (mid-40s at a guess) that drove the truck would look at the two items, get out the calculator, and add them up. At least half the time, she'd key something wrong, and ask for the wrong amount, and I'd have to have a 5 minute discussion on why 1.25 + 0.50 couldn't be 1.85... Finally she'd ask me for $1.75. When I gave her 2 dollar bills, she'd get all confused and have to reach for the calculator again.

Heaven forbid I gave her 7 quarters...

About 2 months in, they upped the hoagies to $1.30. So I gave her 2 dollar bills, and a nickel....I think she may still be trying to work out whether I conned her out of a quarter somewhere...I walked off without it because I didn't have another 10 minutes to wait for my change.

I never tried seeing if she could calculate 6% sales tax...I'd want my waterproof clothing on before I asked in case of spontaneous brain-pan explosion.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I know a number of both American and Imported MSFT people without college degrees (high school grads some and at least one without HS) that started out as contractors, were then soon hired on as regular employees, now have exceeded 6 figure incomes and to boot, the University of Washington then GAVE them a BS degree without one bit of contact with the UW, save to accept the parchement!

 

[Dakota Duce]

There used to be a little snack truck that would come to our building. Every day, I would have a Cheese Hoagie roll, and an apple. The Roll was $1.25, and the apple was $0.50.

Every day, the lady (mid-40s at a guess) that drove the truck would look at the two items, get out the calculator, and add them up. At least half the time, she'd key something wrong, and ask for the wrong amount, and I'd have to have a 5 minute discussion on why 1.25 + 0.50 couldn't be 1.85... Finally she'd ask me for $1.75. When I gave her 2 dollar bills, she'd get all confused and have to reach for the calculator again.

Heaven forbid I gave her 7 quarters...

About 2 months in, they upped the hoagies to $1.30. So I gave her 2 dollar bills, and a nickel....I think she may still be trying to work out whether I conned her out of a quarter somewhere...I walked off without it because I didn't have another 10 minutes to wait for my change.

I never tried seeing if she could calculate 6% sales tax...I'd want my waterproof clothing on before I asked in case of spontaneous brain-pan explosion.

Boy if you want to have fun some day, go to a fast food joint and throw down a handfull of change, ie: pennies, nickles, dimes and quarters.. plus the extra singles so that you would get a single $5 or $10 dollar bill back as your change.

I've done it a few times. That cute young blonde sweetie behind the counter gets all flustered and shook up because she can't take the amount of change that's indicated on the cash register, plus add what was just thrown down.. and hand over a single bill. Get's them just about every time.

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"

 

[wesleyj]

I don't know about that birdman, I was chatting with the director of my law school admissions the other day, and he was telling me that the quality of students applying to law school today is 10x higher than it was 15 years ago. Across the board, scores are up on standardized tests (I know it's not a perfect measure of a student's ability) students are more well rounded, and studies show that students are performing better at both law schools and after school than ever before. (Mind you, the same number of students still fail out of law school, most schools require that a certain percentage of students fail out each year.)
The problems in Engineering are more acute. I went to a very good college and majored in math, earning accolades for my thesis. Yet I never considered going into engineering, despite being fascinated by aviation. Why? Engineering doesn't pay nearly as well as law. Despite requiring a graduate degree (at least for people who went to colleges like mine), starting engineers earn 45-60K. Starting lawyers earn 65-150K. If American engineering concerns want to attract more domestic talent, they are going to need to pay more.
I am tired of people saying that my generation doesn't work as hard, is not as well educated etc. At least from the studies I've seen, students in most colleges are working longer hours than students from 20 years ago. The difference is that today more people go to college, whereas 20 years ago only the best students went to college. Almost all jobs today require at least a 2 year degree. There are more schools today and schools are turning out students at all levels of education. Today, unfortunately, having a college degree is not a guaranty of anything.

Oh, and for the record, I am strongly against tracking programs which put students onto either a college course or a non-college course. I was a lousy to horrible student until 10th grade when I buckled down, worked really hard, and managed to become the best student in my class. If I had been put on a tracking program, that would have never happened.

Of course when all of the law school candidates are now and always have been, low-life, scum sucking, bottom feeding scavemgers, how can you tell if they are better than years past or not.

 

[wesleyj]

the problem we have in this country, is the dumbing down of america, we forced integration on all of the schools in this country, which i feel was the wrong soulution to a very real problem, then instead of raising the expectations and knowledge level of students that had been otherwise deprived of an adequate education in the past, we dumbed down those that had been receiving a proper education. Not only is this practice continuing, it is getting worse all of the time. I watched a nephew and a neice being wasted in the public schools for this very reason, finally my sister took them out of the system and home schooled them, what a turn around, what were failing, uninterested, unmotivated students, have now both graduated from top universities with honors, their friends from school went on to be the losers, that the sytem continues to produce.
The only hope for our system in this country is in home schooling, private and charter schools, the public schools are ruined and as long as they are politically controlled, will continue a rapid downhill spiral.

 

[infotango]

Of course when all of the law school candidates are now and always have been, low-life, scum sucking, bottom feeding scavemgers, how can you tell if they are better than years past or not.

Whoa there!
No need for such a broad generalization.
Sure there are some students in my law school who are genuine scum suckers, but most of the students are actively involved in organizations fighting for some type of public good (divided 50/50 amongst d and r) and 50 percent of our graduates go into some form of public service.
My roommate took a huge cut in pay to put criminals behind bars.
And almost all lawyers do some form of pro bono public service annually.
Do we want to compare numbers with business school candidates? How many people go into business school just to serve in public service after they graduate? How many business school graduates do some form of pro bono service?
Be careful with your generalizations. I assure you I am not nor ever will be a low life scum sucking bottom feeding scavenger.

 

[Bill]

I watched a nephew and a neice being wasted in the public schools for this very reason, finally my sister took them out of the system and home schooled them, what a turn around

*snip*

The only hope for our system in this country is in home schooling, private and charter schools, the public schools are ruined

Sherry and I have come to the same conclusion. Holly starts private school in August. The payments would buy me a nice airplane, but in my heart I know where the money should go.

Besides, stoicism is good for the soul, right???

 

[corjulo]

Complete crap.

LOOK AT THE U.S. PRODUCTIVITY NUMBER!!!!!!!!!


We're doing something right

 

[corjulo]

PEOPLE

every generation complains about the school systems. it aint the schools. Its crappy parents!!!!

 

[Frank Browne]

PEOPLE

every generation complains about the school systems. it aint the schools. Its crappy parents!!!!

It's the schools also. Yes, there are crappy parents. There are crappy schools (and teachers) as well.

 

[ScottM]

Boy if you want to have fun some day, go to a fast food joint and throw down a handfull of change, ie: pennies, nickles, dimes and quarters.. plus the extra singles so that you would get a single $5 or $10 dollar bill back as your change.

I've done it a few times. That cute young blonde sweetie behind the counter gets all flustered and shook up because she can't take the amount of change that's indicated on the cash register, plus add what was just thrown down.. and hand over a single bill. Get's them just about every time.

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"

That has happened to me so many times it is not funny. But not too long ago a teenager asked how to do that so it worked out. I let her in on the secret of addition and she thought that it was pretty cool and glad she could now do that. She told me she had seen her mom do it alot but could never figure that out.

 

[ScottM]

It's the schools also. Yes, there are crappy parents. There are crappy schools (and teachers) as well.

A friend of mine who is a HS teacher told a funny/sad story week before last. At a parent teacher conference for a student of his who was failing and would not graduate this week was asked by the parent what "HE" was going to do to ensure that little 'jimmy' would pass history and graduate. My firend replied, "I give him home work to do and tests to take the rest is up to you and him". Last I heard little jimmy was still not turing in assignments and will be attending summer school. I guess mom and dad are too busy to make sure their children do the work that is required of them.

 

[Bill]

I let her in on the secret of addition and she thought that it was pretty cool and glad she could now do that. She told me she had seen her mom do it alot but could never figure that out.

How old was this girl?

 

[ScottM]

How old was this girl?

16 I think, she was pretty young. I seem to recall learning this more like when I was 12 but then I have alway been very inquisitive. I don't know what would be the normal time to learn this but back then all the registers were manual so it was a skill that more people needed than now.