Do you Teach Touch & Go's?

[danhagan]

I spent a fair amount of time afterwards with a CFI. I no longer have the "if the wheels touch down they stay down" dictum, but I'm not spring loaded for the T&G like some folks here. I wish I would have been a good enough pilot to avoid that prop strike. Came perilously close to ending my flying for good.

Every landing should be a possible go-around ... if you're scared because of trim/flaps and gear, get more time with a CFI.

 

[PaulS]

I spent a fair amount of time afterwards with a CFI. I no longer have the "if the wheels touch down they stay down" dictum, but I'm not spring loaded for the T&G like some folks here. Like I said, there are situations where it's best to ride it out. I seem to be a good enough pilot that I can fly out of a balked landing without doing repeated T&G's. I wish I would have been a good enough pilot to avoid that prop strike. Came perilously close to ending my flying for good.

We all screw up, it's part of flying. Glad you stuck with it.

 

[steingar]

Every landing should be a possible go-around ... if you're scared because of trim/flaps and gear, get more time with a CFI.

You know nothing Dan Hagan! Steingar fears nothing! My point was that T&G's do add an extra bit of risk in a complex aircraft versus a trainer due to the complexities of the systems involved (and some the characteristics of my own steed). Since I see absolutely no benefit of doing repeated T&G's I refrain from doing them in my complex airplane. If you disagree go ahead, do what you like.

I agree, every landing is a potential go around. I just don't go around if I don't need to.

 

[apr911]

Right, definitely easier, but you really don't get the landing practice doing wheel landing T&G's so why do that? All my tailwheel training/practice was full stop landings (with the exception of practicing x-wind procedures where we would alternate wheels the length of the runway). I think most ground loops occur in the rollout so that's why I think it makes more sense to practice with full stop landings in a tailwheel...

Rereading your original comment I've interpreted it slightly different the "n-th" time through than I did the first time. Maybe it's this additional feedback or just a different frame of mind considering this time I'm focusing solely on your comments and not any side chatter in the thread. This read through I understand what it was you were getting at but initially I was thinking in terms of why a touch-n-go has value.

It is true ground loops are most likely to occur during the transition/rollout and therefore full-stops make the most amount of sense for the purpose of learning and controlling the transition but there is more to a good proper wheel landing than just the transition and the transition really can be taught just as easily with some high speed taxis without ever having to actually take off or land.

A touch and go makes sense for a wheel landing, particularly in the perspective of the begining student because wheel landings present a different sight picture and different set of controls than non-tailwheel pilots are used to. There really is no parallel maneuver that equates to a wheel landing in a tailwheel that can be flown in another plane which is quite unlike a 3-pt landing which has a close facsimile in a seaplane water landing and even has similarities to tricycle geared aircraft landing sequence.

The way I've seen it taught by many instructors is to teach the wheel landing attitude first and then work the transition. In that regard touch-n-go wheel landings are more about flying the plane to the ground, managing the sink rate and controlling the CG shift that is naturally going to want to drive the tail down (countered with forward stick) putting you back into a flying attitude that then causes a porpoise and if managed inappropriately, a prop strike. So by doing touch-n-go's for wheel landings, you're developing the skill to put the wheels on the ground gently, manage the various controls and continue to fly the plane on the ground while keeping it centered on the runway (usually with a strong wind) until such point that you decide to either "go-around/touch-n-go" or bring the plane to a stop by transitioning to a 3-pt attitude. Again considering the transition in both directions (3-pt-To-Tail-High or Tail-High-To-3-Pt) can be taught with high speed taxi's the actual performance of the wheel landing is more dependent on controlling your sink rate and shifts in CG which is where touch-n-go's are best as it allows you to focus on just getting that part right before having to worry about transitioning the plane.

 

[danhagan]

You know nothing Dan Hagan! Steingar fears nothing! My point was that T&G's do add an extra bit of risk in a complex aircraft versus a trainer due to the complexities of the systems involved (and some the characteristics of my own steed). Since I see absolutely no benefit of doing repeated T&G's I refrain from doing them in my complex airplane. If you disagree go ahead, do what you like.

I agree, every landing is a potential go around. I just don't go around if I don't need to.

Students read these sites also. I understand hesitaton in TNGs in a retract gear AC. Not sure it was you or another pilot, last year indicated they'd NEVER perform a go-around and were committed.

 

[idahoflier]

This read through I understand what it was you were getting at but initially I was thinking in terms of why a touch-n-go has value.

No worries, I probably didn't adequately explain my thoughts and I don't disagree with what you said. What I was trying to convey was that I personally don't see any value in full stop landings only vs. T&G's, unless it was in a tailwheel, where, for me, I would get the most practice out of a full stop landing. Of course the usual caveats apply, runway length, wind, experience, etc. I am definitely not saying there is anything wrong with full stop only landings, do/teach whatever gives the pilot/instructor the most comfort...

 

[KaiGywer]

Another option I will use when winds are calm and no traffic (small airport, 3K runway), roll out to end, turn around and take off. This gives practice to both patterns and runways.

A King Air working on night currency did exactly that at our Class D a couple weeks ago. Roll out, turn around, cleared for takeoff. Over and over.

During my PPL exam every single one was a T&G except for return home. Examiner wanted to waste 0 time.

Same for my commercial I just did. In a Mooney even.

Dangerous for some. Not for others. There is nothing special about the Mooney that makes it this impossible life-threatening task that you make it out to be. That being said...

Insert obligatory Clint Eastwood quote here.

I do them in the Mooney all the time. I also land with half flaps, so I’m already set for takeoff (also half flaps).

 

[steingar]

Students read these sites also. I understand hesitaton in TNGs in a retract gear AC. Not sure it was you or another pilot, last year indicated they'd NEVER perform a go-around and were committed.

When I first got my complex aircraft I decided I was committed if the wheels hit the ground. I'd ride out whatever it was. I knew I wasn't sufficiently conversant with the aircraft and its energy, and I felt putting in the power with the sort of things I'd have to do quickly to keep the flight safe was beyond my capabilities. I no longer see that, since I am much more conversant with the aircraft, its energy, and its systems. It didn't hurt that back then the landing gear was very difficult to lock up with the Johnson bar, a situation that has since been rectified.

I still see no reason to do T&Gs with my complex aircraft. They teach nothing useful (other than how to do T&Gs) and do add some risk. Were there none no one would have ever landed gear up or died doing them.

 

[danhagan]

I still see no reason to do T&Gs with my complex aircraft. They teach nothing useful (other than how to do T&Gs) and do add some risk. Were there none no one would have ever landed gear up or died doing them.

Again, I understand and would be hesitant myself with the chance of a gear up after the 5th TNG. In my area, winds can make some really bad things happen right at or near touchdown. I've hit dust devils that were over pavement twice that turned me nearly 60* to the runway just a few feet before flaring ... you can't see them unless they're lifting dirt or over dirt. Good reason not to be airborne in my area between noon and 4pm.

 

[steingar]

Again, I understand and would be hesitant myself with the chance of a gear up after the 5th TNG. In my area, winds can make some really bad things happen right at or near touchdown. I've hit dust devils that were over pavement twice that turned me nearly 60* to the runway just a few feet before flaring ... you can't see them unless they're lifting dirt or over dirt. Good reason not to be airborne in my area between noon and 4pm.

We have no such conditions where I live, at lest not that I've experienced. My main fear would be some sort of fauna running out into the runway environment, if not the unwary bystander. However, most of my destinations are large strips surrounded by large fences keeping out the fauna as well as the riff raff. That, and if I had to land a strip where animals were a possibility I think I wouldn't land it anywhere near nighttime. Most animals stay out of open spaces during the day.

In the Okavango Delta in Africa megafauna like giraffes love runways. They can see predators better. All kinds of beasts frequently have to be chased off. And hyenas eat airplane tires.

 

[EdFred]

The last place I had to go around due to wildlife on the runway was at a Class C airport, at 11am. Even 8' fences don't keep everything out.

 

[steingar]

The last place I had to go around due to wildlife on the runway was at a Class C airport, at 11am. Even 8' fences don't keep everything out.

Naw, those Michigan coeds can get through anything. No doubt they liked the grass abutting the runway for grazing.

 

[EdFred]

Naw, those Michigan coeds can get through anything. No doubt they liked the grass abutting the runway for grazing.

I will not argue that. The girls at UM are are the least attractive of all the Michigan college girls. I'd take a Sparty over them on looks. Of course, they are dumber which is the only way I could get one to go out with me.

 

[timwinters]

I did a go around after landing a couple months ago. <snip> I bounced.

i.e. you did NOT do a go around after landing.

I've said this before, I'll say it again. I've promised myself that if I feel uncomfortable in any aspect of my flying, I will get a CFI and do that which makes me uncomfortable until I know I'm proficient...

It's not about feeling uncomfortable, it's about introducing an unnecessary risk for the sake of saving a few minutes or a few bucks. I'm quite proficient at going around, but I still almost always refuse to do a touch and go with an instructor.

 

[PaulS]

i.e. you did NOT do a go around after landing.



It's not about feeling uncomfortable, it's about introducing an unnecessary risk for the sake of saving a few minutes or a few bucks. I'm quite proficient at going around, but I still almost always refuse to do a touch and go with an instructor.

I did a bounced landing, then went around. I have no problems doing touch and goes, always a little uncomfortable the first couple times in a new to me model airplane, but that goes away.

 

[EdFred]

You guys realize a touch and go doesn't have to be bam bam bam bam, get it up as quick as you can. You can roll it for 500' (which is around 5 seconds at 60 kts, count that out and see how long that actually is) or while you retrim, etc...and if you touch down soon enough, you're departing at about the same spot you would have if you did a taxi back and take off. No unnecessary risk introduced.

It isn't to see how fast you can get it done.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

My instructor had me doing touch and goes on lesson 2. I remember doing them on my PPL checkride as well. I'd have no hesitation teaching them to a new PPL student.

 

[SToL]

I don't introduce touch and goes until after the student begins demonstrating thorough understanding, knowledge and performance of good take offs and landings.

Before that point, there's too much going on for the student to digest, and they need that time to taxi back and stop and think or talk about everything that just happened.